MLM Math

[Joecool]

Thinking of some top Amway distributors there's award winning NASA scientists, NFL champions, world reknowned medical researchers, media personalities, athletes, traditional entrepreneurs etc etc etc. There's also Gen Yers and housewives.

I'd love them to do some brief vignettes featuring some of these people and what they do in their "traditional" careers, finishing with "and I'm also an Amway business owner", perhaps with a bit of background of why. It could really change perceptions

And these top distributors should disclose how they they earn from Amway as opposed to what they earn by selling tools.

What I find odd is that part of the Amway pitch I've seen, and believe is still used today is the concept of residual income. That one day as a diamond, I can "walk away" from my Amway business and untold wealth will roll in while I sit on exotic beaches of the world.

Yet nobody seems to be able to point out any of these Amway retirees.

 

[icerat]

You really don't understand the FDA and their relationship with homeopathic products.

Actually, the problem was I didn't read the link I used. I just did a quick google for FDA and homeopathy and picked the first. Oops.

 

[xjx388]

Years ago I suggested a series of adverts Amway should do to blow out of the water the image of who an Amway distributor is by featuring some successful distributors. They're not who you people seem to think.

Whoever they might feature would not be typical IBOs.

Thinking of some top Amway distributors there's award winning NASA scientists, NFL champions, world reknowned medical researchers, media personalities, athletes, traditional entrepreneurs etc etc etc. There's also Gen Yers and housewives.

See what I mean? The successful people are not your typical IBO holder. It would be misleading to showcase the few successful people while ignoring the hordes of people who make nothing. But there's nothing to stop you from showcasing whoever you want when you pitch people on the opportunity -which is a problem, don't you think?

I'd love them to do some brief vignettes featuring some of these people and what they do in their "traditional" careers, finishing with "and I'm also an Amway business owner", perhaps with a bit of background of why. It could really change perceptions.

Their careers have nothing to do with Amway. The only purpose in doing this would be to equate success in rocket science/NFL/medical research with Amway success. That's misleading.

The problem is that Amway's "culture" is that individual business owners can't be marketed as it will give them an unfair advantage over other IBOs - people may want to join with the guys on TV rather than their neighbour who just started.

Somewhere up the line, every IBO is connected to one of the few top distributors. I think the legal issues is the main reason you don't see that kind of advertising.

 

[icerat]

Whoever they might feature would not be typical IBOs.

You don't join the gym to be a "typical" member. It's about what you can achieve if you actually follow the program

See what I mean? The successful people are not your typical IBO holder. It would be misleading to showcase the few successful people while ignoring the hordes of people who make nothing.

How is it misleading? Part of the point is there is no "typical".

Their careers have nothing to do with Amway. The only purpose in doing this would be to equate success in rocket science/NFL/medical research with Amway success. That's misleading.

No, the point is to negate the myth that only the desperate unemployed do MLM. Nothing to do with what's required to succeed.

Somewhere up the line, every IBO is connected to one of the few top distributors.

Huh? That's like saying "somewhere up the line everyone who sells coke is connected to coke". Meaningless. What are you trying to say?

I think the legal issues is the main reason you don't see that kind of advertising.

Given you've interpreted in a way completely different to what I intended, yes I suppose others might too

 

[maximara]

Looking around I found something by the Virtual Math Tutor which is not that dissimilar from MLM from pre-Revolution (ie pre 1917 Russia).

 

[icerat]

Looking around I found something by the Virtual Math Tutor which is not that dissimilar from MLM from pre-Revolution (ie pre 1917 Russia).

Ummm, yeah, it's dissimilar from legitimate MLM. That's a pretty classic pyramid scheme. I wouldn't even put it in the category of pyramid scheme masquerading as MLM, since people aren't even buying legitimate products (just coupons, may as well be an airplane game)

Can you really not see the difference?

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

I didn't have time to read through all five pages, so it's probably already been brought up, but I'll ask anyway. If the products are so good, then why not sell them in a traditional retail way?

Coke is a great product. It sells itself.

Levi's Jeans sell themself

Tide sells itself.

Yet, these "great products" that MLM produce need this convoluted system in order to move product. Why?

 

[icerat]

I didn't have time to read through all five pages, so it's probably already been brought up, but I'll ask anyway.

yup, it has.

If the products are so good, then why not sell them in a traditional retail way?

Well, first of all, direct sales pre-dates fixed location sales, which is what I assume you mean by "traditional".

Coke is a great product. It sells itself.

Levi's Jeans sell themself

Tide sells itself.

Really? So they don't advertise any of those products?

Yet, these "great products" that MLM produce need this convoluted system in order to move product. Why?

What do you find convoluted about somebody showing you the features/benefits of a product in your own home and you purchasing it off them or their website?

 

[xjx388]

You don't join the gym to be a "typical" member. It's about what you can achieve if you actually follow the program.

I have no doubt that there are certain people who can be successful at building an IBO. But these people are relatively rare. Most people don't have the social intelligence, sales skills and personal networks to be successful in running a direct sales business. And the numbers near this idea out: most people who join do not have what it takes to rise above the typical outcome:
No profit.

How is it misleading? Part of the point is there is no "typical".

By emphasizing the differences between successful people, you are obscuring the key similarities which make them successful.

No, the point is to negate the myth that only the desperate unemployed do MLM. Nothing to do with what's required to succeed.

I've never heard that myth. And it should be all about what's required to succeed.

Huh? That's like saying "somewhere up the line everyone who sells coke is connected to coke". Meaningless. What are you trying to say?

At the top of the pyramid, there are a handful of IBOs -like Dexter and Birdie Yager. This handful is in every other IBOs upline. Amway is "Coke," and none of these IBOs are connected to Amway.

What if I want to start my own IBO which is connected to no one's upline? Can I then convert other people's downline to my own?

Given you've interpreted in a way completely different to what I intended, yes I suppose others might too

It's the message that such ads would send.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

yup, it has.



Well, first of all, direct sales pre-dates fixed location sales, which is what I assume you mean by "traditional".

Yeah, and the buggy predated the car. The bow predated the gun. And hunting and gathering predated agriculture.

Really? So they don't advertise any of those products?

Sure they do. What they don't do is implore people to not only sell the product, but to sell the system to their friends, family, and whomever else to artificially move the product when basic advertising doesn't work. Tide isn't selling because I signed people up below me who feel the need to buy it to support the program. Tide sells because people say "hey, that's a good product, I'm going to purchase it." You may have figures to prove me wrong here, but how many people are buying, for instance, Amway's product who aren't a part of Amway?

What do you find convoluted about somebody showing you the features/benefits of a product in your own home and you purchasing it off them or their website?

If nothing else, it's 2013, and I could much easier and quicker watch a demonstration on Youtube, than to have to have someone in my home. Plus, they aren't just selling me the product. They are also trying to make me a saleman, too. Big difference. No one is enticing me to buy Tide by telling me that I'll make money if I also sell the Tide.

 

[icerat]

I have no doubt that there are certain people who can be successful at building an IBO. But these people are relatively rare. Most people don't have the social intelligence, sales skills and personal networks to be successful in running a direct sales business. And the numbers near this idea out: most people who join do not have what it takes to rise above the typical outcome:
No profit.

(1) there are an extraordinary number of very successful people in MLM who began with (a) poor social intelligence (b) poor sales skills and (d) no personal networks

(2) All of those are skills that can be learned, and indeed people who are too good with those things at the beginning often don't do so well as if they try to recruit team members, the prospects say "oh, well it's easy for you ... you have ... blah blah blah".

(3) One of my upline was an engineer who wouldn't even answer the phone he hated talking to people so much. He now makes millions from MLM. A friend of mine has dyslexia, can't read or write properly, he's gone from stuttering and stammering and being scared of people to being an in-demand speaker and trainer around the world. There are blind people, deaf people, pensioners, teenagers, rocket scientists and burger flippers that have succeeded with Amway.

What's the common thread? Grit[/I] I suspect. The research isn't in yet, but it appears likely grit can be learned.

By emphasizing the differences between successful people, you are obscuring the key similarities which make them successful.

The key similarity between successful people in MLM is pretty much the same as in any other endeavour - grit

I've never heard that myth. And it should be all about what's required to succeed.

grit?

At the top of the pyramid, there are a handful of IBOs -like Dexter and Birdie Yager.

If you mean the "line of sponsorship" of people introduced, Dexter & Birdie Yager are nowhere near "the top", they are down many branches and levels of one Amway leg. Heck, even Devos and Van Andel, who started Amway, aren't at "the top"!

Yes, ultimately it tracks back to a few people - none of whom, by the way, are even remotely close to being Amway's most successful distributors.

This handful is in every other IBOs upline. Amway is "Coke," and none of these IBOs are connected to Amway.

Actually, the way the Amway system works is that only the "direct" (now called platinum) is officially connected with Amway. Historically, only "directs" could order from Amway. If you start a business and build enough volume to qualify as a "direct" (doesn't require sponsoring anyone, though it is easier that way), you "break away" from your sponsor. They (may) get an override bonus, but the basic MLM system stops at that point.

What if I want to start my own IBO which is connected to no one's upline?

It's like a club, you have to be introduced.

Can I then convert other people's downline to my own?

Cross-line raiding is a breach of contract.

It's the message that such ads would send.

you seem very certain considering you didn't even get a brief script or storyboard, let alone see final ads

 

[icerat]

Sure they do. What they don't do is implore people to not only sell the product, but to sell the system to their friends, family, and whomever else to artificially move the product when basic advertising doesn't work.

So if a friend shows me a product, and I like it and decide to buy it, it's artificial demand?

Why?

Tide isn't selling because I signed people up below me who feel the need to buy it to support the program. Tide sells because people say "hey, that's a good product, I'm going to purchase it."

I buy Amway SA8 because I tried it and said "hey, that's a good product, I'm going to purchase it."

I gather it's your belief that the vast majority of people who buy Amway products do so because they think doing so will make them rich or something?

You may have figures to prove me wrong here, but how many people are buying, for instance, Amway's product who aren't a part of Amway?

First could you answer a question for me - how many people are buying CostCo products that aren't members of CostCo?

If nothing else, it's 2013, and I could much easier and quicker watch a demonstration on Youtube, than to have to have someone in my home.

How well does that work with say, the smell of perfume, the taste of an energy drink etc etc etc?

Sure a youtube video is quicker, but do you really think it's the same as actually trying a product?

Plus, they aren't just selling me the product. They are also trying to make me a saleman, too. Big difference. No one is enticing me to buy Tide by telling me that I'll make money if I also sell the Tide.

No one is enticing me to buy Amway product by telling me that I'll make money if I also sell Amway products either.

Do some people try the product because they're intrigued by the business opportunity? Sure, of course. Some people try a product because there's a competition with a chance to win a trip, or you get bonus points on your loyalty card this week ... all sorts of incentives are common in the marketplace.

Do some people buy products out of some misguided idea that doing so will somehow make them rich? Sure. They're idiots. That's clearly not the basis of a sustainable business and is arguably a pyramid scheme. Amway kicked out a significant number of leaders a few years back because they thought that's exactly what they were encouraging people to do.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Who ever said I support Costco? You completely ignored my question-how many people buy Amway products that aren't members of Amway?

And for what it's worth, Costco isn't even a fair comparison. When I "sign up" for Costco, they tell me I can save money by buying in bulk. That's it. They don't tell me it's a business opportunity (as a matter of fact, it's actually against company policy to buy in bulk from there to use at your own business, though people do it all the time). Sam's Club is the same way. Burger King isn't supposed to walk through the doors and buy a bunch of buns to use in their store.

Also, Costco is selling all products that are available elsewhere. They are proven. I ask again, if Amway's products are so great, how many people are buying them that aren't a member of Amway?

I remember my father being a member of Melaleuka 20 some years ago. They had a spray cleaner, akin to Simple Green, that they said was the best cleaner. Yet when it was tested against other cleaners, it performed poorly. I believe this is precisely the reason it was being sold in an MLM program. If it was really the best, it would have stood out and sold on it's own, much like Simple green has.

 

[icerat]

Who ever said I support Costco? You completely ignored my question-how many people buy Amway products that aren't members of Amway?

In my experience people are asking this question for illegitimate reasons, which is why I wanted to know where you are coming from.

And for what it's worth, Costco isn't even a fair comparison.

When I "sign up" for Costco, they tell me I can save money by buying in bulk. That's it. They don't tell me it's a business opportunity (as a matter of fact, it's actually against company policy to buy in bulk from there to use at your own business, though people do it all the time). Sam's Club is the same way. Burger King isn't supposed to walk through the doors and buy a bunch of buns to use in their store.

So, if CostCo did allow you to resell their products, that would affect your view of their sales how exactly?

Also, Costco is selling all products that are available elsewhere. They are proven. I ask again, if Amway's products are so great, how many people are buying them that aren't a member of Amway?

Sorry, but it's a stupid question. I like Amway products. For the past decade I've been buying them because I like them. I've maintained a membership because then I can buy them cheaper. (I've just now started building again)

It's fairly clear you seem to think there's a problem with having a membership to qualify for cheaper pricing.

As to answering your question, it's impossible to know. Amway does not require independent agents to register all of their customer sales with them, and in fact in the 1979 FTC vs Amway decision they were fined partly for getting agents to report their sales, thus pressuring them to all sell at the same price.

When I've been actively building an Amway business I think I've probably had at least 50 different customers. A handful of them have ordered directly from Amway, so Amway knows about that, they don't know anything at all about the vast majority of customer sales I've made. I had someone place an order with me last week, over $200 worth. Amway doesn't know whether I sold it or used it.

I remember my father being a member of Melaleuka 20 some years ago. They had a spray cleaner, akin to Simple Green, that they said was the best cleaner. Yet when it was tested against other cleaners, it performed poorly. I believe this is precisely the reason it was being sold in an MLM program. If it was really the best, it would have stood out and sold on it's own, much like Simple green has.

So, whatever won that "best cleaner" independent test. That's the one everyone who isn't part of an MLM buys?

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

I'm 33 years old and I have yet to have someone try to sell me Amway (or any other MLM) that didn't ALSO try to get me to sign up under them and sell the stuff as well.

I wouldn't normally use personal experience, it goes against the spirit of the JREF. But you have done it repeatedly in this thread, so why not?

I know you are on some sort of a mission, you immediately respond to people on this thread ad nauseum. You like MLMs, that's fine by me. I'm not arguing they are illegal, but I still have a hard time seeing how their products would be superior. If they were, they'd be more readily available. Using Coke again. Do you think Coke, leading the market share, and winning taste test after taste test (since the mid-80s when they overtook Pepsi again, anyway), would suddenly make people join a club to buy their product? Of course not!

Anyhow, I'll go back to buying things the traditional way, where the best product either outadvertises everyone, or wins out by being the best product. Maybe someday someone will try to sell me an MLM product without trying to get me to join the club.

 

[icerat]

I'm 33 years old and I have yet to have someone try to sell me Amway (or any other MLM) that didn't ALSO try to get me to sign up under them and sell the stuff as well.

So? For MLMs, the "opportunity" is effectively one of the products, it can make sense to promote everything that's available and let the buyer decide what they want.

I'm not arguing they are illegal, but I still have a hard time seeing how their products would be superior.

They're not necessarily superior, for you - how do you define "superior"? Take cleaning products. What's important to you? Price? Effectiveness? Environmental concerns? Smell? Social issues? Convenience?

In most product categories, the vast majority of consumers do not buy the leading brand. Most don't buy the ones that win independent comparisons either. Heck, most independent comparisons don't even pick the same winners!

If they were, they'd be more readily available. Using Coke again. Do you think Coke, leading the market share, and winning taste test after taste test (since the mid-80s when they overtook Pepsi again, anyway), would suddenly make people join a club to buy their product? Of course not!

I'm not sure your point here, since I'm not aware of any MLM that requires you to join to buy their products.

Anyhow, I'll go back to buying things the traditional way, where the best product either outadvertises everyone, or wins out by being the best product. Maybe someday someone will try to sell me an MLM product without trying to get me to join the club.

I filled my car up with petrol today. If I join the chain's "club" I get it cheaper. Should I? I went to the supermarket. I've already joined their "club". The cashiers were asking everyone if they wanted to. I get points and some rebate checks if I get enough. I entered a competition to win a Nokia phone. For every friend I refer who enters, I get another entry.

It's not like this stuff is particularly unusual.

 

[Joecool]

First could you answer a question for me - how many people are buying CostCo products that aren't members of CostCo?

Strawman. Costco is a buyer's club.

In most cases, Amway is presented as a business opportuniity.

 

[xjx388]

Strawman. Costco is a buyer's club.

In most cases, Amway is presented as a business opportuniity.

Exactly. If it was the Amway Buyer's Club I would have absolutely no problem.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Icerat must be busy buying all those top-notch products right now.

 

[Joecool]

Icerat must be busy buying all those top-notch products right now.

The lengths he goes to just to defend Amway and their products is amazing.

We had a discussion on another forum and although Aim and Colgate were cheaper, he still claimed that Amwya's glister toothpaste was a better value.

Why?

Originally Posted by Icerat
Glister even has a smaller hole so that it virtually forces you to use less