Monsanto

[AlBell]

That doesn't sound nearly as much fun as flamethrowers. Around here, it's Mediterranean Yellow Star Thistle, for which my preferred approach is hand-pulling (which is way less fun than flamethrowers).

Anyway, prolly the rouge wheat strain in Oregon was just a diversionary tactic by the team of evil scientists who are now working on Roundup Ready Kudzu.

You keep doing that. I know we're not talking about makeup so it makes me grit my teeth.

I do know how easy it is to transpose letters in a word. Anyway, no big deal.

ps. How do you know flamethrowers are "fun"?

 

[kellyb]

In the big picture, I'm not sure why the details even matter all that much. If it was a failure of regulation, then, considering that we are already depending rather heavily on the premise that current regulations are adequate, it raises serious questions about our ability to accurately determine just what constitutes an adequate level of regulation. If it was something along the lines of deliberate sabotage, that raises questions about whether any level of regulation can ever be adequate.

I see the situation as roughly analogous to the failure of attempts (clearly doomed from the start, from this vantage point in time) to control the spread of nuclear proliferation. Some things, once invented, cannot be un-invented, and neither is it realistic to expect to be able to maintain exclusive control over them. Had Klaus Fuchs not provided the Soviets with details related to the Manhattan project, they would have found some other way to aquire the information they needed... etc.

With genetic engineering, we are again dealing with advanced technology that has potential greater than we have the ability to calculate, and just to make things extra interesting, it has a self replicating component. Added to that are the implications of your earlier observation:In other words, we don't even have an effective opt-out, because "if we don't do it, somebody else will."

It seems to me then that the whole GE thing is, by very its nature, a genuine slippery slope, and -- without knowing how long it is or how steep it gets or where it ends up -- we have already chosen to ride the ride. Maximum thrill value is derived from the fact that there are no brakes, and nothing you could really call a steering mechanism. Please keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle at all times (and watch your head).

I agree. Well, I kind of fluctuate between techno-paranoia and techno-utopianism, really.

But if Kudzu is the "worst case scenario"...that's pretty utopian, isn't it? I mean, southern ag has still flourished in spite of Kudzu. It's a PITA, but not a bona fide nightmare.

Now, if agricultural biotech were to accidentally create or be able to create something along the lines of canine parvo...when it comes to "needing big ag to fix a problem caused by big ag"...well...I dunno. It's an infant science in spite of its power and breathtaking technical prowess.

I'm keeping my hand and feet inside the car and watching my head as best I can. I'm just a prole. We sneer.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

ps. You must be long MON.

If that means holding it for the long term, then yes. But that's assuming I own it. Which I may. Or may not.

 

[Jhau]

Why is there not the same amount of vitriol against arms manufacturers who supplied the US army during the Vietnam war and then when the weapons were used to kill innocent civilians?

Good point.

General Electric (GE) - "Progress is our most important product" - manufactured the M134 minigun, capable of firing 6000 rounds per minute. It was mounted on a whole variety of platforms, including helicopters, planes and boats, and no doubt killed a lot of people.

GE also manufactured the M61 Vulcan minigun, which fired larger calibre shells and which was mounted in US fighter and bomber aircraft.

However, I don't recall anyone marching in protest, or refusing to purchase GE kitchen mixers or whitegoods...

 

[kellyb]

With genetic engineering, we are again dealing with advanced technology that has potential greater than we have the ability to calculate, and just to make things extra interesting, it has a self replicating component. Added to that are the implications of your earlier observation:In other words, we don't even have an effective opt-out, because "if we don't do it, somebody else will."

It seems to me then that the whole GE thing is, by very its nature, a genuine slippery slope, and -- without knowing how long it is or how steep it gets or where it ends up -- we have already chosen to ride the ride.

Another thought:
What about piracy?
What if "ALL THE GENETIC CODES!" were accessible to everyone? What if everything was open access?

What do you think about the prosecution of Aaron Swartz?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

 

[kellyb]

Good point.

General Electric (GE) - "Progress is our most important product" - manufactured the M134 minigun, capable of firing 6000 rounds per minute. It was mounted on a whole variety of platforms, including helicopters, planes and boats, and no doubt killed a lot of people.

GE also manufactured the M61 Vulcan minigun, which fired larger calibre shells and which was mounted in US fighter and bomber aircraft.

However, I don't recall anyone marching in protest, or refusing to purchase GE kitchen mixers or whitegoods...

Is GE (General Electrics) expanding nowadays or receding under the shadow of Monsanto, et al?

 

[Horatius]

ps. How do you know flamethrowers are "fun"?

How could they not be?

 

[Sceptic-PK]

How could they not be?

Hahaha. Good answer.

 

[Dymanic]

You keep doing that.

I do, don't I? Actually, it's my fingers that do it. Though I won't tell it now, here's a story behind the transposition in my screenname; the original incident caused me a lot of grief. My experience has been that most people don't even notice it, at least not right away.

Anyway, no big deal.

Well, I'm concerned about the effect it may have on your tooth enamel; after all, if it changes teh meaning of a word...

ps. How do you know flamethrowers are "fun"?

Hoartuis really nailed that one. Just what I'd have said if he hadn't beat me to it.

 

[Dymanic]

But if Kudzu is the "worst case scenario"...that's pretty utopian, isn't it?

I'm not saying Kudzu is "worst case", but then, I'm not exactly sure what "worst case" would be. Perhaps something very aggressive but without any redeeming benefits like helping with erosion control or providing good forage (both of which Kudzu is purported to do, which is part of why deliberate efforts were made to introduce it). As extremely aggressive invasive species go, the article I linked above (quoting another source) suggests that Kudzu is a pretty good example:

"Kudzu has covered 7,000,000 acres (2.8 million ha) of land inthe Southeast. Unless a way is found to stop it, this figure will double in ten years... The debate is over. Kudzu is changing ecosystems as small as freshwater ponds, a homestead, roadside, or huge slicesof a county or state. Even those who recognize and promote the usefulness of Kudzu agree... (Hoots and Baldwin, 1996)."

I mean, southern ag has still flourished in spite of Kudzu.

That article contains some rather strong statements regarding the enormous negative economic impacts of Kudzu, including loss of diversity, lost productivity in forests, increased maintanence costs in railroad service and in the power industry, and loss of homes. Especially tough on national parks, evidently. As for agriculture, the article states: "Because of Kudzu infiltration, farms are often degraded beyond use..."

 

[kellyb]

I'm not saying Kudzu is "worst case", but then, I'm not exactly sure what "worst case" would be. Perhaps something very aggressive but without any redeeming benefits like helping with erosion control or providing good forage (both of which Kudzu is purported to do, which is part of why deliberate efforts were made to introduce it). As extremely aggressive invasive species go, the article I linked above (quoting another source) suggests that Kudzu is a pretty good example:

"Kudzu has covered 7,000,000 acres (2.8 million ha) of land inthe Southeast. Unless a way is found to stop it, this figure will double in ten years... The debate is over. Kudzu is changing ecosystems as small as freshwater ponds, a homestead, roadside, or huge slicesof a county or state. Even those who recognize and promote the usefulness of Kudzu agree... (Hoots and Baldwin, 1996)."


That article contains some rather strong statements regarding the enormous negative economic impacts of Kudzu, including loss of diversity, lost productivity in forests, increased maintanence costs in railroad service and in the power industry, and loss of homes. Especially tough on national parks, evidently. As for agriculture, the article states: "Because of Kudzu infiltration, farms are often degraded beyond use..."

I can only relate my anecdotes here:
Kudzu grows EVERYWHERE...in between farms and plots. Fires and pesticides are used to keep it at bay. Only abandoned land is really over-run with the stuff. National forests, in TN and MS, at least, are basically Kudzu free.

I'm not trying to minimize the problems with Kudzu, now. If I had a list of "10 Worst Agricultural Ideas of All Time", Kudzu would be #1. But it's not really that bad. I don't think Kudzu has, like, killed anyone. The abandoned space that's gone nuts with Kudzu would be over-run with honeysuckle or other stuff in the absence of Kudzu.

Regarding the "worst case" issue...again, canine parvo. And there are probably some human pathogens that kill some folks that were similarly introduced via "oops". But - that stuff is almost impossible to identify. See: my FDA link earlier in the the thread.

 

[Susheel]

Though I won't tell it now, here's a story behind the transposition in my screenname; the original incident caused me a lot of grief. My experience has been that most people don't even notice it, at least not right away.

WOW...I really did not notice that until now. until I realize what my profession is...then...

 

[Dymanic]

If I had a list of "10 Worst Agricultural Ideas of All Time", Kudzu would be #1. But it's not really that bad.

The thing is, putting a GE twist on things increases the possibilities exponentially (maybe even infinitely). Glow-in-the-dark Kudzu to reduce the energy costs of artificial lighting? We could probably do that. How about a Great Wall of Mexico made of Bougainvillea/poison ivy/Kudzu? The only limits are those of our imagination. Wait. Does human imagination even have limits? How would we know? Well anyway. We don't seem to be in any immediate danger of running out of Really Bad Ideas, that's for sure.

 

[marplots]

The thing is, putting a GE twist on things increases the possibilities exponentially (maybe even infinitely). Glow-in-the-dark Kudzu to reduce the energy costs of artificial lighting? We could probably do that. How about a Great Wall of Mexico made of Bougainvillea/poison ivy/Kudzu? The only limits are those of our imagination. Wait. Does human imagination even have limits? How would we know? Well anyway. We don't seem to be in any immediate danger of running out of Really Bad Ideas, that's for sure.

If the only limits were our imaginations, I'd have a jet pack in my garage and a holodeck in the basement.

 

[Dymanic]

If the only limits were our imaginations, I'd have a jet pack in my garage and a holodeck in the basement.

Maybe you're just stuck in the previous generation of technology. The limits of our imaginations need not be the limits of your imagination. At present, we are limited by the availability of existing genes with which to play mix-and-match, but I don't think there are any fundamental barriers preventing us from inventing entirely new genes from the ground up.

 

[marplots]

Maybe you're just stuck in the previous generation of technology. The limits of our imaginations need not be the limits of your imagination. At present, we are limited by the availability of existing genes with which to play mix-and-match, but I don't think there are any fundamental barriers preventing us from inventing entirely new genes from the ground up.

You're right, I'm not up on what can be done. It seems to me that complexity might rear it's head in there somewhere.

Earlier, it was mentioned about spider silk in goat's milk. Even though that's cool, it's still pretty far from getting quantities of spun silk. A single protein? I can see that. But if you want something like a goat that can fly, I'm thinking it might be better to just start with a bird and accept the limitations.

Maybe I'm a genetic Luddite or simply lack vision, but I can't make the step that goes from tweaking a genome to all out monster. If I wanted a monster, there are plenty to pick from in the existing evolutionary grab bag. My impression is that we are doing the easy stuff to see what's easy rather than setting out with a particular order to be filled.

 

[Polaris]

To put it mildly...a better phrase would be "hubris of the highest order".

By the way, Monsanto is now using the services of the infamous Blackwater Security firm to conduct intelligence and infiltration operations on protest groups, and has been since 2010.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/297701

http://wakeup-world.com/2013/05/31/...ackwater-to-track-activists-around-the-world/

How is it doing that, when the company has been called Academi since 2011?

If the only limits were our imaginations, I'd have a jet pack in my garage and a holodeck in the basement.

I'd have those too, but I'd be too busy with Nicky Whelan and Michelle Jenneke to use either of them.

 

[Dymanic]

You're right, I'm not up on what can be done. It seems to me that complexity might rear it's head in there somewhere.

I don't see how anybody could claim to know, at this point, what can and cannot be done, but if complexity were a hard barrier, we wouldn't have gotten as far as we have with this technology.

A single protein? I can see that. But if you want something like a goat that can fly, I'm thinking it might be better to just start with a bird and accept the limitations.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. Obviously, the ability to manipulate genomes does not give us the power to defy the laws of physics, and a property like "flying ability" cannot easily be conferred by the addition of a gene or two. (Of course, if you did, for whatever unfathomable reason, want to create a grazing animal with flying abilities, you could do worse than the goat as a starting point; as most anyone who has kept goats can attest, they can practically fly already if they really want to.)

Earlier, it was mentioned about spider silk in goat's milk. Even though that's cool, it's still pretty far from getting quantities of spun silk.

Is it? Nexia Biotechnologies has already produced fiber from spider-goat milk, and has trademarked the material as "BioSteel".

My impression is that we are doing the easy stuff to see what's easy rather than setting out with a particular order to be filled.

A particular order like, say, a strain of corn that produces its own insecticide?

And also: "The easy stuff"? If what is being done now is the easy stuff, then what does your imagination allow you to picture us doing some decades from now, once we've really got a handle on this thing?

 

[Dymanic]

I'd have those too, but I'd be too busy with Nicky Whelan and Michelle Jenneke to use either of them.

Boom!

 

[marplots]

(some snipped)
Is it? Nexia Biotechnologies has already produced fiber from spider-goat milk, and has trademarked the material as "BioSteel".

Tre cool. I'll check it out. You have once again put the E in JREF.

And also: "The easy stuff"? If what is being done now is the easy stuff, then what does your imagination allow you to picture us doing some decades from now, once we've really got a handle on this thing?

Mini ponies that living Barbie dolls can ride. But my imagination is too derivative. I bet the real thinkers could come up with stuff like houses grown from seeds or marmots that urinate gasoline.

Don't get me wrong, I love genetic engineering. It's an area that's moving along interesting paths and fast enough that I might see practical oddiments before I die. I just don't default to B-movie monsters.