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Monsanto

Dymanic said:
Was there evidence that importation of Kudzu would cause ecological disaster?
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Nope.
But I'm pretty sure the argument goes that, all things considered, importations have done more good than harm, and Kudzu is more of a massive PITA than a nightmare-scenario.

Of course, when you're talking about the FDA and biotech, I'm like a broken record, thinking of this:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biolog...sConferences/TranscriptsMinutes/UCM056219.pdf

Now the regulatory authorities in the room will be well aware of a large number of other examples of this type which don't actually get published. I think that's not so good. I think this stuff really should be out there in the public literature. But nonetheless, these are the ones which are well known, I think
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And later:

I understand from some of the remarks that have been made that there are others that are known to a small coterie of people here that have not been publicly declared. I urge all of you to think about this seriously because it can and will have a great impact on this industry. Thank you.

DR. MINOR: I agree totally with that. It does seem to me that sooner or later the information will leak out. I think the industry looks very bad.
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This is interesting in the context of the Oregon wheat thing. If the FDA had discovered it, instead of some random farmer who happened to have access to the Oregon researchers who had access to the experimental Monsanto wheat for genetic comparison/testing, that information might never have made it into the public domain.
 
marplots said:
Doesn't sound so bad for Kudzu. Looks like a transition to a new ecology is in the works with the arrival of the Kudzu bug, although there are other consequences: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-invasive-kudzu-bugs-pose-greater.html

How do they manage in China?

When I read "ecological disaster" I can't get past the image of a nuclear wasteland. Here it seems to be winners and losers instead.
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Well, even such a "wasteland" might be viewed as merely the end result of a "transition to a new ecology" anyway. Right? One of the most highly radioactively contaminated areas in the world is the "Red Forest" located immediately behind the reactor complex at Chernobyl. It's also one of Europe's largest wildlife sanctuaries, and it's not hard to see the logic behind the Ukranian government's decision to officially designate it as such, considering that the expectation is that people will be avoiding the area anyway. Plus, it just sounds nicer than "Exclusion Zone". Among the numerous species now reported to be thriving there are lynx, wild boar, wolf, Eurasian brown bear, European bison, Przewalski's horse, and eagle owls.

So, winners: previously rare species; losers: humans. I guess "disaster" is like "beauty" (in the eye of the beholder).
 
Dymanic said:
Well, even such a "wasteland" might be viewed as merely the end result of a "transition to a new ecology" anyway. Right? One of the most highly radioactively contaminated areas in the world is the "Red Forest" located immediately behind the reactor complex at Chernobyl. It's also one of Europe's largest wildlife sanctuaries, and it's not hard to see the logic behind the Ukranian government's decision to officially designate it as such, considering that the expectation is that people will be avoiding the area anyway. Plus, it just sounds nicer than "Exclusion Zone". Among the numerous species now reported to be thriving there are lynx, wild boar, wolf, Eurasian brown bear, European bison, Przewalski's horse, and eagle owls.

So, winners: previously rare species; losers: humans. I guess "disaster" is like "beauty" (in the eye of the beholder).
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Yeah, I guess. Kudzu doesn't do it for me, but an asteroid hit probably would. It seems like if I want some things to go extinct (polio, small pox), I'd be a hypocrite if I then claimed diversity was a universal good.

I've already admitted I have the naive idea that organisms should fight it out and let the best for a niche survive. Of course, in that scenario, I think we humans would win, which might not be the case at all.

I wonder what the feeling is about introducing earth stuff to other planets? I've heard they are very careful about keeping things sterile now, but I don't see why a bit of alien species introduction wouldn't be called for if we find a planet that would support our kind of life.
 
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marplots said:
I've already admitted I have the naive idea that organisms should fight it out and let the best for a niche survive.
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That approach doesn't seem very compatible with the idea of traditional agriculture; let alone genetic engineering.

Of course, in that scenario, I think we humans would win, which might not be the case at all.
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I'm still not sure how one would even begin to define "winning" in that context -- but if you're looking for man versus monster horror movie script material, Kudzu might just about fit the bill. So far, we're losing. Enough flamethrowers in the hands of enough Southern rednecks might turn things around, but then, well... large armies of flamethrower-wielding rednecks? That's horror movie material right there.
 
I'm really interested in the "Whodunit?" aspect of the Monsanto wheat in Oregon. I'm almost tempted to go look on infowars to see if Alex Jones is screaming "False Flag!" and saying Monsanto did it themselves to sick the Globalist NWO Police State Forces on the right-thinking patriots who oppose genetic engineering.

Or, maybe it was a Venezuelan or Bolivian spy/operative/terrorist, in cahoots with the EU, posing as a migrant Mexican farm worker, on a mission to screw with Monsanto's profits and mess with US Big Ag export sales.
 
Dymanic said:
That approach doesn't seem very compatible with the idea of traditional agriculture; let alone genetic engineering.


I'm still not sure how one would even begin to define "winning" in that context -- but if you're looking for man versus monster horror movie script material, Kudzu might just about fit the bill. So far, we're losing. Enough flamethrowers in the hands of enough Southern rednecks might turn things around, but then, well... large armies of flamethrower-wielding rednecks? That's horror movie material right there.
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Japanese knotweed is a strong runner up to the kudzu, and my personal demon.

I'm using Roundup :D, and lots of digging.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Again demonstrating the importance of posting links to legitimate news organizations. When I saw "Occupy Monsanto", I had no interest in clicking it.

It will be interesting to see where the wheat in Oregon came from. It's possible, perhaps, that further testing will show it wasn't Monsanto's experimental wheat. One very real possibility is that an anti-GMO "activist" somehow got a hold of a sample and planted it. These people are known to lie and commit crimes to further their paranoid nonsense, so I wouldn't put anything past them.
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Kewl. We have a CT forum. Try there.

ps. You must be long MON.
 
kellyb said:
I'm really interested in the "Whodunit?" aspect of the Monsanto wheat in Oregon. I'm almost tempted to go look on infowars to see if Alex Jones is screaming "False Flag!" and saying Monsanto did it themselves to sick the Globalist NWO Police State Forces on the right-thinking patriots who oppose genetic engineering.

Or, maybe it was a Venezuelan or Bolivian spy/operative/terrorist, in cahoots with the EU, posing as a migrant Mexican farm worker, on a mission to screw with Monsanto's profits and mess with US Big Ag export sales.
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In the big picture, I'm not sure why the details even matter all that much. If it was a failure of regulation, then, considering that we are already depending rather heavily on the premise that current regulations are adequate, it raises serious questions about our ability to accurately determine just what constitutes an adequate level of regulation. If it was something along the lines of deliberate sabotage, that raises questions about whether any level of regulation can ever be adequate.

I see the situation as roughly analogous to the failure of attempts (clearly doomed from the start, from this vantage point in time) to control the spread of nuclear proliferation. Some things, once invented, cannot be un-invented, and neither is it realistic to expect to be able to maintain exclusive control over them. Had Klaus Fuchs not provided the Soviets with details related to the Manhattan project, they would have found some other way to aquire the information they needed... etc.

With genetic engineering, we are again dealing with advanced technology that has potential greater than we have the ability to calculate, and just to make things extra interesting, it has a self replicating component. Added to that are the implications of your earlier observation:
If the US "over-regulates" development or production of commercial biotech products, an economic advantage can develop for a country/economic union with more laisser-faire regulations (or lack thereof.)
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In other words, we don't even have an effective opt-out, because "if we don't do it, somebody else will."

It seems to me then that the whole GE thing is, by very its nature, a genuine slippery slope, and -- without knowing how long it is or how steep it gets or where it ends up -- we have already chosen to ride the ride. Maximum thrill value is derived from the fact that there are no brakes, and nothing you could really call a steering mechanism. Please keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle at all times (and watch your head).
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
It just needed to be pointed out. When I encounter anti-GMO nutwads on Facebook and elsewhere, a favorite tactic of theirs is to make the connection to Agent Orange. I like to inform them that there is no connection. It's a form of public humiliation. :)
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Evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Early_development

Chemically, Agent Orange is an approximately 1:1 mixture of two phenoxyl herbicides – 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T) – in iso-octyl ester form.[13]

Numerous studies have examined health effects linked to Agent Orange, its component compounds, and its manufacturing byproducts.[14]

Prior to the controversy surrounding Agent Orange, there was already a large body of scientific evidence linking 2,4,5-T to serious negative health effects and ecological damage.[15] But in 1969, it was revealed to the public that the 2,4,5-T was contaminated with a dioxin, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin (TCDD), and that the TCDD was causing many of the previously unexplained adverse health effects which were correlated with Agent Orange exposure.[16] TCDD has been described as "perhaps the most toxic molecule ever synthesized by man".[17] Internal memoranda revealed that Monsanto (a manufacturer of 2,4,5-T) had informed the U.S. government in 1952 that its 2,4,5-T was contaminated.[18] In the manufacture of 2,4,5-T, accidental overheating of the reaction mixture easily causes the product to condense into the toxic self-condensation product TCDD. At the time, precautions were not taken against this unintended side reaction, which caused also the Seveso disaster in Italy in 1976.
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LSSBB said:
Japanese knotweed is a strong runner up to the kudzu, and my personal demon.

I'm using Roundup :D, and lots of digging.
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That doesn't sound nearly as much fun as flamethrowers. Around here, it's Mediterranean Yellow Star Thistle, for which my preferred approach is hand-pulling (which is way less fun than flamethrowers).

Anyway, prolly the rouge wheat strain in Oregon was just a diversionary tactic by the team of evil scientists who are now working on Roundup Ready Kudzu.
 
AlBell said:
Kewl. We have a CT forum. Try there.

ps. You must be long MON.
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Honestly, it really is suspicious as hell. I mean, it's been like 8 years since this stuff was grown on the continent. Nobody's seen the stuff for years.

Now, the sky is kind of the limit on speculation about what's going on here, but if it was a basic "genetic mutant escapes!" scenario, you'd think the stuff would be all over the place by now?

Or (cue thunder) maybe it is!??!! Maybe farmers all over the US have and have had this stuff growing in their fields since 2005 or whenever, but were afraid to report it because they feared being sued by Monsanto for theft? Maybe the USDA has been quietly "in on" the coverup because they didn't want to do something that would crash the US wheat market?

Radical Greenpeace activists seem an unlikely culprit to me, but you never know. I suppose I can see some formerly dreadlocked Phish fan in Oregon going to college and infiltrating Big Ag with some cockamamie scheme to "bring down" Monsanto?

Actually, this would be a fun thread for the CT subforum...

:D
 
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