Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[pteridine]

pteridine, if that nut actually had a useable product, he'd patent it. He'd patent it and specifically detail the mechanism. He would want that patent protection. Even if his engineering chops weren't up to snuff, he could license someone else to manufacture a better model for him. They couldn't "steal" it from him because of that patent protection.

So I gotta ask you, supposing for a moment that this thing is real (it isn't), why would he torpedo his own pet project?

His actions are not consistent with someone who has found something both useful and legitimate. An actual discovery would be patented with all information disclosed, to ensure the mechanism was likewise protected. An actual inventor would permit all and sundry to both test his device in any way they saw fit, and encourage others to build their own and replicate his results. Again, even if his engineering chops aren't up to snuff, there's plenty of other folks whose aforementioned chops are quite up to the task, and they'd confirm and verify his claims.

But his actions aren't consistent with an actual discovery. They are consistent with a con man. Testing only happens in methods he permits. These tests are done, not in any manner that proves nor disproves his claims, because confirmation isn't a goal and is not relevant. All he needs do is keep attention up enough about his proto-project, and he can use that to steal more money by lying to donors. He's in it for the small cash, because the big cash that comes with an actual product is not possible in this case.

The man is a thief. Short. Simple. Done.

You can dress it up any way you like. But actions speak far louder than words, and as noted above, the actions of this man show that it is all an intentional lie with the goal of getting money he does not deserve.

Pick a new hero. This one is not deserving.

How do you know he is not patenting what he can of it? Look up US patent applications online.
Remember that the hot fusion interests arranged it so that anything that suggests "low temperature nuclear reactions" and "cold fusion" is generally unpatentable in the US. All that good "scientific" advice from those with an agenda that included funding for their pet projects along with fragile egos and vested interests in the status quo. The big dogs started believing their own press releases.

Do you think that detailing the mechanism could take a few years? How long would his IP would last after the Chinese read the patent? Maybe he is smarter than you...think he is.

 

[maryyugo]

pteridine, these are non-arguments.

The reason it is said that you can't patent cold fusion in the US is because most such patents describe things which have not been reduced to practice and which almost certainly won't work.

As for Rossi being protected by being secretive, that is totally ridiculous. He claims he's sold fourteen so-called megawatt plants, each of which consists of more than fifty individual reactor modules. How does he know one of his supposed clients won't take one apart and copy it? Or sent it to China? Or Nigeria? Or the Ukraine? Or Dr. No's underground MERSH laboratory in Timbuktu?

If Rossi had something real, patents would be his ONLY way to protect his IP. No trade secret would outlast the first sale by very long given how much money would be involved. But no worries. Rossi most likely has nothing to show and nothing to patent except a cleverly masked electrical heater.

 

[Horatius]

How do you know he is not patenting what he can of it? Look up US patent applications online.
Remember that the hot fusion interests arranged it so that anything that suggests "low temperature nuclear reactions" and "cold fusion" is generally unpatentable in the US. All that good "scientific" advice from those with an agenda that included funding for their pet projects along with fragile egos and vested interests in the status quo. The big dogs started believing their own press releases.

Do you think that detailing the mechanism could take a few years? How long would his IP would last after the Chinese read the patent? Maybe he is smarter than you...think he is.

God, I love it! You go on about us claiming he's a fraud without any evidence, and then blithely accuse the entire patent system of conspiring with "hot fusion interests" to suppress cold fusion patents. Hypocrisy much?

I work in the patent field, and I can assure you, these patents are denied because they utterly fail at meeting the legislative requirements for getting patents. No "hot fusion interests" have ever dictated terms to us. And if they did, we'd tell them to blow it out their ass.

And your concerns about the Chinese copying his IP just shows how ignorant you are about how patents work. Even if they did copy his design, they still couldn't market his device anywhere he had a patent, as that's part of what patents allow you to stop people from doing. Any devices they tried to ship to countries with patents could be seized and destroyed as soon as Rossi filed a patent infringement suit.

 

[Horatius]

If Rossi had something real, patents would be his ONLY way to protect his IP. No trade secret would outlast the first sale by very long given how much money would be involved.

It's even worse than that - someone who reverse engineered his device could probably file for, and get, a patent himself, and thus bar Rossi from building and selling his devices.

Sure, it would be fraudulent to do that, but that's the sort of fraud that would be almost impossible for the patent office to detect, or prove. And Rossi's earlier patent applications would not be a bar to this later patent, as they are (as he had admitted) incomplete, lacking details on the catalyst needed. It's well established that a non-functional disclosure cannot be used as prior art to deny a later patent that actually functions to produce the desired result.

So, his "trade secret" route is pretty much destined to **** himself over, assuming that he's not completely full of ****, of course.

 

[Horatius]

as they are (as he had admitted) incomplete, lacking details on the catalyst needed.

And while we're at it, there's more of that evidence of Rossi's fraud that we "don't have". He's filed a fraudulent patent application, that he he admits lacks sufficient detail to enable other people to practice his invention.

That's a clear violation of the requirements of every patent act that I'm familiar with, and is indisputable* evidence of his intent to defraud the various patent offices around the world, and by extension, the citizens of those countries that might have issued patents without finding out about this deficiency.




*Yes, I know this is far too optimistic of me

 

[ben m]

How do you know he is not patenting what he can of it? Look up US patent applications online.
Remember that the hot fusion interests arranged it so that anything that suggests "low temperature nuclear reactions" and "cold fusion" is generally unpatentable in the US.

"Crap that doesn't do anything" is supposed to be unpatentable. Who has attempted to patent a fully-disclosed, working cold fusion technology? People have been filing patents for their guesswork, and the patent office has been correct to reject these patents. You can't patent antigravity, telepathy, or weather beams either.

How long would his IP would last after the Chinese read the patent? Maybe he is smarter than you...think he is.

Oh, no! Rossi had better phone up Apple, DuPont, 3M, Siemens, IBM, Microsoft, Google, GE, GM, Intel, Merck, Pfizer, Dyson, and every technology company on Earth and tell them to stop spending billions of dollars on patents. How long will their IP last after the Chinese read the patent?

 

[Dancing David]

How do you know he is not patenting what he can of it? Look up US patent applications online.
Remember that the hot fusion interests arranged it so that anything that suggests "low temperature nuclear reactions" and "cold fusion" is generally unpatentable in the US.

Nice The Smurf Cabal prevents the patent of this nonsense that isn't demonstrated therefore it must be true!

All that good "scientific" advice from those with an agenda that included funding for their pet projects along with fragile egos and vested interests in the status quo. The big dogs started believing their own press releases.

Ah yes the Smurf Cabal and Big Oil are preventing Rossi from having the largest IPO investment of all time, why? Because Rossi has nothing.

Do you think that detailing the mechanism could take a few years? How long would his IP would last after the Chinese read the patent? Maybe he is smarter than you...think he is.

His IPO would make him rich regardless of the chinese, but yes you can blame the Smurf Cabal instead. He would be richer than Bill gates and teh whole of teh Middle east combined, but "He he he I have to protect it from the Smurf Cabal".

 

[Aepervius]

There are several undeniable lies already:

a) Rossi has lied repeatedly about the nickel/copper isotopes. On one hand, he showed an "isotope analysis" that he claimed to be copper from his reaction ashes. (It was non-radioactive, isotopically-natural copper.) On the other hand, he claims to be starting with 62Ni specifically to restrict the reaction to 63Cu for radioactivity reasons. I.e. he claims that his reaction ashes are either radioactive or isotopically-pure. One of these is a fraudulent claim. Rossi's defenders can speculate about which one was fraudulent, i.e. that he's lying to "protect" some secret, but there is no evidence for this, is there? (The speculation "they're both lies" is at least as good, and probably better.)

It is a bit worst than that, he initially started with normal Ni and normal Cu "ashes", but once pointed to him that it was impossible , some (was it him or his proponent can't recall) tried to pretend that the reaction had different % so that in the end you get the naturally isotopic copper. Nowadays the pretension is just that you need to get pure 62Ni apparently (did not read it directly myself) which is funny considering Rossi always used normal Ni previously. Well : whatever.

b) On video, we see Rossi holding a gently-misting pipe and claiming that it's evidence of 10kW (or whatever, I forget) of steam, which is obviously not true. This is a lie. Rossi's defenders can speculate about why he would point to a teacup's worth of steam and call it a kettle---lying to protect secrets, confused about the plumbing, mistaken about how much steam had condensed already---but there's no evidence for any of this, is there? (The speculation "there was no 10kW to begin with" is just as good, probably better.)

What's funny is after the fact was pointed out (I particularly think of Krivit's analyzis) none of the fan like pterydine picked that up.

 

[Aepervius]

It's even worse than that - someone who reverse engineered his device could probably file for, and get, a patent himself, and thus bar Rossi from building and selling his devices.

It is even legal (not a fraud) in first-to-file countries.

In first-to-invent it might be fraudulent but could be possibly difficult to fight in court.

ETA But yeah the "secret catalyst" kill it outright in the egg.

 

[Horatius]

It is even legal (not a fraud) in first-to-file countries.

Well, that's a debate I'd love to see the lawyers get into!

A first-to-file system doesn't really make it "legal" to copy someone else's work, and file a patent application in your own name. The person named as the "inventor" is supposed to be, well, an inventor, and a copy-cat isn't such, by definition. The first-to-file system merely makes it easy to resolve conflicts between two nearly-simultaneous independent inventions by inventors that both apply for the patent (which happens more often that you'd believe!). A first-to-invent system makes resolving such conflicts much more difficult.

But, as a practical matter, the patent offices don't have any kind of subpoena power, and so even if we suspected someone was a copy cat, we'd likely be unable to prove it to a sufficient degree so as to be allowed to deny the patent.

 

[maryyugo]

Meanwhile, James Bowery finally asked a decent question of the believers on the Vortex email list. And he got some really strange responses from believers Rothwell and Roberson regarding reasons why Rossi, instead of setting up a liquid (or forced air) cooling system for his highly energetic device, simply hangs it in free air, without fins, so it glows cherry red with minimal heat input.

This is the thread: www[dot]mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/index.html#82302 (sorry, the forum won't let me post a link )

I was booted off Vortex for "sneering" (which means to those guys any really incisive critique of their fantasies) so I can't reply to them directly.

 

[Mister Earl]

How do you know he is not patenting what he can of it? Look up US patent applications online.

First he patented it with an unnamed "catalyst". Then he did it without. This suggests to me that he can patent it however he wants. Now that we agree and we know that he'd enjoy the full protection of patent law, why won't he let the device be examined thoroughly?

Remember that the hot fusion interests arranged it so that anything that suggests "low temperature nuclear reactions" and "cold fusion" is generally unpatentable in the US.

Bull. You can patent a magic purple energy keychain here. There is no shadow-and-cloak organization out to surpress technology.

All that good "scientific" advice from those with an agenda that included funding for their pet projects along with fragile egos and vested interests in the status quo. The big dogs started believing their own press releases.

A great way for him to shut them up would be to prove without a shadow of a doubt that his device works. He can do that by allowing others full access to the device and thorough independant testing. Yet he doesn't. Unless.. he's part of the conspiracy to surpress his own device!

Do you think that detailing the mechanism could take a few years? How long would his IP would last after the Chinese read the patent? Maybe he is smarter than you...think he is.

A wheel of cheese could be smarter than me, and it would have no bearing whatsoever one whether or not the wheel of cheese's magic sooper-dimensional enegery fracking bauble is real or a fake.

 

[tsig]

Meanwhile, James Bowery finally asked a decent question of the believers on the Vortex email list. And he got some really strange responses from believers Rothwell and Roberson regarding reasons why Rossi, instead of setting up a liquid (or forced air) cooling system for his highly energetic device, simply hangs it in free air, without fins, so it glows cherry red with minimal heat input.

This is the thread: www[dot]mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/index.html#82302 (sorry, the forum won't let me post a link )

I was booted off Vortex for "sneering" (which means to those guys any really incisive critique of their fantasies) so I can't reply to them directly.

Here you go:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Z2zlDclLGJxuE2w&bvm=bv.47244034,d.aWM&cad=rja

 

[maryyugo]

Another interesting thing on the way to cold fusion success: There will be a meeting in July called ICCF-18. It runs four days. Rossi doesn't make any appearance at all. Defkalion gets 1/4 of a half hour "startups" session! Do you think even cold fusion advocates don't take those two "companies" seriously?

Program: iccf18.research.missouri.edu/program.php

 

[Craig B]

This is being proposed by the Cryofusionists of the Nickelpower blog as scientific confirmation of LENR, from the peer-reviewed journal Naturwissenschaft. Has anyone seen this paper, and is able to comment on it? http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEstatusofcoa.pdf

 

[Christian Klippel]

... only 136 amperes at 220v for 30kW; a subtle 00 awg copper wire would work after derating for multistrand insulated ...

You don't know much about 3-phase supplies, do you? As i mentioned earlier, if all three phases are loaded equally, you have basically no current flowing in the neutral. One can easily fudge the whole setup so that what appears to be a phase to be the actual neutral, then use 3-phase supply in the unit, ans slightly off-balance it all so that a small current flows through that now-phase-but-really-neutral. Now all the meassurements on that "phase" will show 1kW while the reality is something completely different.

Anyways, where do you get the 30kW from? From Rossi or the folks he used that already messed it up previously? Or have you been there and done meassurements yourself and verified that all is OK?

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: Oh, and just in case, keep in mind that Rossi had the whole thing going on before the folks to "test" it came in. Once you heat up a chunk of metal you need less power to keep it that hot for a while: you only have to cover the losses. he might well have used a high power circuit to get it up to temperature, and then switched over to "keep alive" supply to keep that temp.

That's why people keep telling you that the only thing to prove something here is to employ proper calorimetry. You have to account for the energy pumped in to get it going, plus the energy required to keep it going. Then you meassure what energy it is supplying.

You can easily do some induction style heating of a big chink of metal. Pump in 100kW for an hour until it starts glowing. Then continue with only supplying 5kW, for example. If you neglegt the initial heatup, it will surely look as if the 5kW produce more heat than what would be possible. That it slowly decays can be "explained" away by the "catalyst" wearing out or something. In the end you have a meassurement of, lets say, 50kW/h input (if it runs for 10 hours) but heat output of an equivalent of 100kW/h, a net positive. But as said, the initial 100kW pumped in for an hour to get to the initial state are missing here. Because then the reality would be 150kW/h spent and 100kW/h "produced", a net loss of 50kW/h.

Now guess why Rossi does not want anyone to test his contraption _without_ him being in control of everything?

 

[tsig]

You don't know much about 3-phase supplies, do you? As i mentioned earlier, if all three phases are loaded equally, you have basically no current flowing in the neutral. One can easily fudge the whole setup so that what appears to be a phase to be the actual neutral, then use 3-phase supply in the unit, ans slightly off-balance it all so that a small current flows through that now-phase-but-really-neutral. Now all the meassurements on that "phase" will show 1kW while the reality is something completely different.

Anyways, where do you get the 30kW from? From Rossi or the folks he used that already messed it up previously? Or have you been there and done meassurements yourself and verified that all is OK?

Greetings,

Chris

ETA: Oh, and just in case, keep in mind that Rossi had the whole thing going on before the folks to "test" it came in. Once you heat up a chunk of metal you need less power to keep it that hot for a while: you only have to cover the losses. he might well have used a high power circuit to get it up to temperature, and then switched over to "keep alive" supply to keep that temp.

That's why people keep telling you that the only thing to prove something here is to employ proper calorimetry. You have to account for the energy pumped in to get it going, plus the energy required to keep it going. Then you meassure what energy it is supplying.

You can easily do some induction style heating of a big chink of metal. Pump in 100kW for an hour until it starts glowing. Then continue with only supplying 5kW, for example. If you neglegt the initial heatup, it will surely look as if the 5kW produce more heat than what would be possible. That it slowly decays can be "explained" away by the "catalyst" wearing out or something. In the end you have a meassurement of, lets say, 50kW/h input (if it runs for 10 hours) but heat output of an equivalent of 100kW/h, a net positive. But as said, the initial 100kW pumped in for an hour to get to the initial state are missing here. Because then the reality would be 150kW/h spent and 100kW/h "produced", a net loss of 50kW/h.

Now guess why Rossi does not want anyone to test his contraption _without_ him being in control of everything?

If you use a 3-phase delta connection you don't even have a neutral. I'm curious about where all this electricity is coming from, does the ecat produce 3-phase electricity? Why anyone would think a triac controlled resistance heater is a mystery is a mystery.

 

[The Man]

If you use a 3-phase delta connection you don't even have a neutral. I'm curious about where all this electricity is coming from, does the ecat produce 3-phase electricity? Why anyone would think a triac controlled resistance heater is a mystery is a mystery.

Well, like someone mentioned up thread you just have to put all the energy in first. So getting more out than you are currently putting in is not a problem. Like the old flywheel scams for perpetual motion machines. Where the initial 'spin up' energy is never properly accounted in the > 1 efficiency calculations. A somewhat new tact (storing as heat and not mechanical energy), I'll grant that, but it still ends the same.

 

[Cuddles]

This is being proposed by the Cryofusionists of the Nickelpower blog as scientific confirmation of LENR, from the peer-reviewed journal Naturwissenschaft. Has anyone seen this paper, and is able to comment on it? http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEstatusofcoa.pdf

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but just from the abstract:

This paper provides a brief overview of the major discoveries and some of the attempts at an explanation.

It's not confirmation of anything, it's just a summary of stuff that's been done before.

 

[Craig B]

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but just from the abstract:

It's not confirmation of anything, it's just a summary of stuff that's been done before.

Thank you for that. Here's another interesting datum. http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2010/35/3514storms.shtml

Edmund Storms, a former radiochemist with Los Alamos National Laboratory, a former researcher with Lattice Energy LLC and currently a researcher with Kiva Labs, presented a new theory of cold fusion in Rome in the Fall. In December [2009], Storms was appointed the LENR editor for the German journal Naturwissenschaften.

Which published the paper.