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Cops kill Costco pizza lady....

I think it is vanishingly unlikely that this incident could have ended this way in the UK, but the risk faced by our Police is normally very different. Unarmed Police in America would be sitting ducks.

On the surface this seems to be a case of over zealous law enforcement going wrong, but I would still hesitate to condemn the officers involved before more information has been released, any Police Officer faced with an armed suspect has to take the threat seriously and while it may seem obvious to us internet quarterbacks that it would have been better handled differently we're not the ones who could have been stabbed if we'd got it wrong. A thorough and transparent investigation is definitely called for to establish exactly what did happen and the reasonableness of the officers actions.

This.

While I suspect there's some over-reaction here, I can easily imagine several scenarios where the actions taken were the prudent and reasonable option. It all depends on information that hasn't been released yet. Personally, I'm willing to wait until that information is released (or there're indications that it's being hidden) before laying blame on anyone involved.

What are you guys, some sort of wise-guy "skeptics"? How dare you ask for further evidence?
 
Were they aiming at his arm?
Considering several shots were fired, probably. It is doubtful if they aimed at center mass he would not have been much more seriously wounded with at least one shot.
 
It was just some sarcastic remark. Someone who has no problem shooting someone to death (instead of in the arm or something) might have no problem clubbing someone to death (instead of using C&R techniques).

I wonder why they didn't just shoot the knife out of her hand, like the Lone Ranger used to do on TV?
 
I seriously doubt they were anything other than regular kitchen shears. I get out to Costco on a fairly regular basis. They serve samples of the foods they sell in bulk because no one wants to risk buying the jumbo pack of something that tastes like crap. The samples are bite sized. She wasn't serving pizza by the slice, it was in little squares, so kitchen shears work fine.

Also, shooting a person in the arm or leg to incapacitate them is not something that anyone can safely do. Having said that, I think the officers' response was absolutely irresponsible. Don't give me the the crap about "She was charging at him with a knife!" Whenever cops overreact and shoot someone for the crime of being mentally ill in public they always start mewling about how dangerous their job is.

No **** Sherlock. Being a cop is a dangerous job. That's what you get paid for. If you can't tolerate the threat level then you should find a different job. Feeling scared isn't justification for homicide.

I'd love to see some crazed person come at you with a knife, just so I can study how you disarm them. Maybe you could even make a video and sell it to police departments so they will know how to do it.
 
I'd love to see some crazed person come at you with a knife, just so I can study how you disarm them. Maybe you could even make a video and sell it to police departments so they will know how to do it.

Is it me alone? Then I might likely shoot the attacker. Is it me and a partner? ******* cake walk, especially if we're both armed with either a night stick or pepper spray.

She might have a broken hand and some other trauma, but she'd be alive and a chance at diagnosis of the reason for her psychotic break. She's not a trained knife fighter, and it's not clear what sort of knife she actually had. I doubt it was an effective weapon.
 
I'd love to see some crazed person come at you with a knife, just so I can study how you disarm them. Maybe you could even make a video and sell it to police departments so they will know how to do it.

Actually, if I was approached (the cops themselves aren't saying attacked, and she never attacked anybody before the cops showed up) by a 90-pound woman with an obvious medical problem who was waving a knife, and I was holding a two-foot steel pipe (which is what a modern baton is), and my partner was holding his own two-foot steel pipe, I think the odds would be on my side. And videos have already been made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y
 
Actually, if I was approached (the cops themselves aren't saying attacked, and she never attacked anybody before the cops showed up) by a 90-pound woman with an obvious medical problem who was waving a knife, and I was holding a two-foot steel pipe (which is what a modern baton is), and my partner was holding his own two-foot steel pipe, I think the odds would be on my side. And videos have already been made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y

Unfortunately for you, it turns out the lady had been a champion knife thrower in a travelling circus years before. She has that knife buried five inches into your brain via what was immediately prior to this your eyeball. Serve you right for sexism and ageism in assuming she's not dangerous.
 
Let me paint a scenario different from what many are imagining, and correct at least one misunderstanding as well.

First, the shooting occurred in the employee lounge, not the sales floor. SO the comments about endangering customers are probably off-base. Employee lounge is basically the break room. THis would be in an area of the store not accessible to the general public, usually in back, and unless Costco is different from any other store around, it's probably not a large area. My guess would be 20' by 20', give or take a factor of 2. The fact that one of the officers was injured by a ricochet also suggest a smaller area with hard surfaces...ricochets loose power very quickly. That seems reasonable, but I'm willing to be shown differently and await more info before making a final judgement.

2. While there may have been more than 2 officers on the scene, customers report being told to get outside and leave the area. So some officers were involved in trying to clear the area of bystanders. It's not unreasonable that the two directly involved were the only two confronting the woman. Or, given that this was in the break room, they may have been the only two into the room when the incident occurred. We don't know.

3. As to why they all didn't use tazers, it again seems reasonable to me that, when facing an armed and possibly dangerous person, you wouldn't want everyone to be using tazers. I would expect one or more to have weapons out and trained just in case somethign unexpected happens (such as the knife wielder charges, or suddenly pulls a gun, or whatever). Basically, one to subdue and one to cover. There are police officers of various levels on the forum that I'm sure could shed light on what the current training recommends in that regard.

Now, up to this point, nothing seems to have gone wrong. Some officers (unknown number) are trying to clear the area of bystanders. Some (at least two) have gone to confront the woman in the breakroom (an area of unknown size and construction, but that would be seperated from the sales floor).

Now, assuming a 20 foot room, or even 40 foot, LTC8K6's post becomes much more relevent. Even in a 40' room, unless she was all the way on the other side, she's very close to that 21 foot mark he mentions. We don't know the original plan, which is part of the information needed (did they talk to her? What happened in that conversation?). We also don't know exactly what happened when she approached the officer with the knife (did she walk towards them? Run? Run screaming with the knife raised? Did the officer simply lie about it?) This is additional info that would be needed to determine whether or not the right course of action were taken.

However, the statements indicate that the tazer didn't work (another area of question...did it malfunction? Miss? Or, as happenes sometimes, hit but one of the darts did not penetrate through the clothing to touch skin? Or, again, was this a fabrication?).

So you have a situation that has suddenly gone pear-shaped. THe woman is within that 21 foot line, approaching, and your attempt to subdue didn't work. There is NOT time to drop or holster a gun (or a malfunctioning tazer) and draw pepper spray (unless she was simply walking).

So, assuming the woman charged them, and thr tazer malfunctioned, I can understand why events took the turn they did.

However, as I stated, I would like to know the details. If they never tried talking to the woman, or if the woman was just walking towards then and not running/charging, and so forth, then the officers messed up. Or if the woman was far enough away they would have had time to try another approach, for that matter.

Basically, I'm still open to either option. But depending on details, this may not have been a case of over-zealous officers.

Also, as an aside, you generally do NOT want to get into a hand-to-hand situation with someone weilding a knife, unless there's no other option. One of the first things to be taught in knife training is that you will get cut. Accept that at the beginning and try to limit the damage. I don't blame them for not attempting to wrestle someone with a blade.
 
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I'd love to see some crazed person come at you with a knife, just so I can study how you disarm them. Maybe you could even make a video and sell it to police departments so they will know how to do it.

I'd rather hope they already had that video.


Unfortunately for you, it turns out the lady had been a champion knife thrower in a travelling circus years before. She has that knife buried five inches into your brain via what was immediately prior to this your eyeball. Serve you right for sexism and ageism in assuming she's not dangerous.

The only logical course of action is to shoot everyone you see. It's the only way to be sure.
 
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Let me paint a scenario different from what many are imagining, and correct at least one misunderstanding as well.

First, the shooting occurred in the employee lounge, not the sales floor. SO the comments about endangering customers are probably off-base. Employee lounge is basically the break room. THis would be in an area of the store not accessible to the general public, usually in back, and unless Costco is different from any other store around, it's probably not a large area. My guess would be 20' by 20', give or take a factor of 2. The fact that one of the officers was injured by a ricochet also suggest a smaller area with hard surfaces...ricochets loose power very quickly. That seems reasonable, but I'm willing to be shown differently and await more info before making a final judgement.

2. While there may have been more than 2 officers on the scene, customers report being told to get outside and leave the area. So some officers were involved in trying to clear the area of bystanders. It's not unreasonable that the two directly involved were the only two confronting the woman. Or, given that this was in the break room, they may have been the only two into the room when the incident occurred. We don't know.

3. As to why they all didn't use tazers, it again seems reasonable to me that, when facing an armed and possibly dangerous person, you wouldn't want everyone to be using tazers. I would expect one or more to have weapons out and trained just in case somethign unexpected happens (such as the knife wielder charges, or suddenly pulls a gun, or whatever). Basically, one to subdue and one to cover. There are police officers of various levels on the forum that I'm sure could shed light on what the current training recommends in that regard.

Now, up to this point, nothing seems to have gone wrong. Some officers (unknown number) are trying to clear the area of bystanders. Some (at least two) have gone to confront the woman in the breakroom (an area of unknown size and construction, but that would be seperated from the sales floor).

Now, assuming a 20 foot room, or even 40 foot, LTC8K6's post becomes much more relevent. Even in a 40' room, unless she was all the way on the other side, she's very close to that 21 foot mark he mentions. We don't know the original plan, which is part of the information needed (did they talk to her? What happened in that conversation?). We also don't know exactly what happened when she approached the officer with the knife (did she walk towards them? Run? Run screaming with the knife raised? Did the officer simply lie about it?) This is additional info that would be needed to determine whether or not the right course of action were taken.

However, the statements indicate that the tazer didn't work (another area of question...did it malfunction? Miss? Or, as happenes sometimes, hit but one of the darts did not penetrate through the clothing to touch skin? Or, again, was this a fabrication?).

So you have a situation that has suddenly gone pear-shaped. THe woman is within that 21 foot line, approaching, and your attempt to subdue didn't work. There is NOT time to drop or holster a gun (or a malfunctioning tazer) and draw pepper spray (unless she was simply walking).

So, assuming the woman charged them, and thr tazer malfunctioned, I can understand why events took the turn they did.

However, as I stated, I would like to know the details. If they never tried talking to the woman, or if the woman was just walking towards then and not running/charging, and so forth, then the officers messed up. Or if the woman was far enough away they would have had time to try another approach, for that matter.

Basically, I'm still open to either option. But depending on details, this may not have been a case of over-zealous officers.

Also, as an aside, you generally do NOT want to get into a hand-to-hand situation with someone weilding a knife, unless there's no other option. One of the first things to be taught in knife training is that you will get cut. Accept that at the beginning and try to limit the damage. I don't blame them for not attempting to wrestle someone with a blade.


All very sensible. But if she was inside the breakroom she was no threat to anyone. Did the cops charge in and say "Get on the ground!," or could they maybe have stood outside and said "Ma'am, county sheriff. We need to talk to you" and waited for a response? Could they have blocked her in the room and waited for backup? There's no easy answer here, and I know this "shoot'em in the leg" business is just silly, but I'm not convinced that the cops exhausted all reasonable alternatives.
 
Unless Virginia has just moved to The Netherlands, I'm not sure how this is relevant.
It is relevant because some people here on this forum essentially claim shooting in the arm or hand is an impossibility and everyone claiming something else has in the best case been watching too much TV and in the worst case is extremely obtuse, or also otherwise referred to as an idiot.
 
By the way, it's the first thing I hear of using scissors to cut pizzas to samples. Can anyone show me what pizza scissors would look like?
Just regular kitchen scissors. Of course, this method is frowned upon by purists and other non-barbarians.
 
Unfortunately for you, it turns out the lady had been a champion knife thrower in a travelling circus years before. She has that knife buried five inches into your brain via what was immediately prior to this your eyeball. Serve you right for sexism and ageism in assuming she's not dangerous.

Ah, but fortunately for me, I remembered seeing her act many years ago. As I approached her I shouted "Cirque du Soleil!," and she dropped her knife and bowed.
 
All very sensible. But if she was inside the breakroom she was no threat to anyone. Did the cops charge in and say "Get on the ground!," or could they maybe have stood outside and said "Ma'am, county sheriff. We need to talk to you" and waited for a response? Could they have blocked her in the room and waited for backup? There's no easy answer here, and I know this "shoot'em in the leg" business is just silly, but I'm not convinced that the cops exhausted all reasonable alternatives.

That's part of why I said we need more information. I don't know what happened, what they tried, or how she reacted.

For that matter, did anyone give the police an indication that there was a possibility of mental illness or something else? I mean, my first thought if I hear about someone acting crazy all of a sudden is probably going to be "drug-related".

Like I said, it could be that they did everything right and it was just an unfortunate situation, or it could be that they murdered a woman and tried to cover it up, or it could be anywhere in between. Don't know yet, and I can see possibilities along that entire range.

I just wanted to provide some counterweight to the people who are already at the point of discussing sentencing for the officers involved, when the details aren't known.
 
It is relevant because some people here on this forum essentially claim shooting in the arm or hand is an impossibility and everyone claiming something else has in the best case been watching too much TV and in the worst case is extremely obtuse, or also otherwise referred to as an idiot.

I don't think it's impossible to shoot someone in the leg at close range, but under the pressure of the moment and with a moving target it would be extremely difficult. The real issue is that you don't want cops shooting people unless deadly force is absolutely necessary. Imagine the carnage if cops were trained to think they could just shoot someone to slow them down or warn them.

But the large majority of people who are shot don't die. Cops are usually trained to "double-tap," fire two shots at center mass, and then assess. The woman might conceivably have survived two shots. Five quick shots indicates a panic reaction.
 

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