Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

I can't find the letter on the wiki or anywhere else. It would be better to actually see what she said but no matter what I don't see the big issue.

Apparently she didn't have copies of her own letters or she questioned her own letter when she wrote her book or the co-author mixed it up.

Briar do you have this letter?

are these the letters you're looking for?

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=Amanda_Knox's_letters_to_her_lawyers

 

[Grinder]

look for "Amanda's email home". (but not the one from October, that's from her Facebook page)

Halides1 linked them recently in this post.

The Vogt snip says it was in a letter to her attorney on Nov. 9th

Chris' link goes to the email home.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the magic of DNA

I don't think that Allan Jamieson's view of LCN DNA is that different from Bruce Budowle's view. I acknowledge that the only DNA forensic experts (that I can think of) who have discussed the lack of blood problem of the knife are from the US. However, I am as strongly of the opinion as ever I was that believing in the existence of inculpatory DNA on a knife that tested negative for blood is magical thinking.

 

[yimyammer]

The Vogt snip says it was in a letter to her attorney on Nov. 9th

Chris' link goes to the email home.

I just linked you in a previous post to Amanda Knox's letters to her lawyers:

Amanda Knox's first letter of Nov 9, 2007

Amanda Knox's second letter of Nov 9, 2007

 

[Kaosium]

The purse on the bed wasn't the only clue if you remember. The front door was open there was blood in the bathroom, a break-in, and a strange deposit in the toilet. Sollecito claimed he even tried to break down the door. The locked bedroom , Meredith not answering her phones, purse on the bed.....really not important? . Amanda's letter to her lawyer November 9 2007 mentions the purse. She forgets that for her edited memoir. Interesting revisiting the Nov 9 letter she writes that she dried her hair first then noticed the toilet contents.

Briars, why is that important after the discovery of the body? From the time she saw it to the time the door was broken down it was just one of many indications something was wrong and thus of some interest, but after that it, again, is just one of many indications and at that point irrelevant as the important thing was that Meredith was dead and her body was inside. So if Amanda later says something about looking through the keyhole and says she saw 'nothing' you can rest assured at least she thought Meredith being dead was more significant than the placement of her purse and whether she saw it looking for Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

are these the letters you're looking for?

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/index.php?title=Amanda_Knox's_letters_to_her_lawyers

yes thanks.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

letters to her lawyer

The Vogt snip says it was in a letter to her attorney on Nov. 9th

Chris' link goes to the email home.

Here is a link to a story by Vogt that appears to have links to the letters. Link to letters here and here.

 

[Grinder]

I just linked you in a previous post to Amanda Knox's letters to her lawyers:

Amanda Knox's first letter of Nov 9, 2007

Amanda Knox's second letter of Nov 9, 2007

Patience

 

[yimyammer]

Here is a link to a story by Vogt that appears to have links to the letters. Link to letters here and here.

even better, I was looking for these

thx

 

[yimyammer]

Patience

ha, sorry

halides gave better links to the hand written docs

 

[Kaosium]

The Vogt snip says it was in a letter to her attorney on Nov. 9th

Chris' link goes to the email home.

Sorry, fixed it, blew the link, had the wrong one in cache.

Bringing up Vogt and the whole purse thing made me wonder, didn't she include that in her article on Amanda's book? I wonder if Vogt had some 'help' with that article? Perhaps some bunny droppings in her e-mail box?

 

[Grinder]

Briars, why is that important after the discovery of the body? From the time she saw it to the time the door was broken down it was just one of many indications something was wrong and thus of some interest, but after that it, again, is just one of many indications and at that point irrelevant as the important thing was that Meredith was dead and her body was inside. So if Amanda later says something about looking through the keyhole and says she saw 'nothing' you can rest assured at least she thought Meredith being dead was more important than the placement of her purse and whether she saw it looking for Meredith.

The question of interest is only how the story changed in her book. Apparently she wrote (or her ghost writer) that she didn't see the purse. Now I'd say that it was a mistake or after 5 years she now believed that she hadn't seen it.

But what does it mean? Why does Vogt feature it in her last little foray?

Clearly if she would have written the same thing in her book there would be no issue for Vogt or Briar. Really the only thing to conclude is that both are desperate for an issue.

 

[Grinder]

Bringing up Vogt and the whole purse thing made me wonder, didn't she include that in her article on Amanda's book? I wonder if Vogt had some 'help' with that article? Perhaps some bunny droppings in her e-mail box?

Yes she did and that's where the PGP got it. I mean, really, if this makes their radar not much in the book can be obviously making her guilty.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think the biggest difference is the fact that Filomenas boss (ahemmm a lawyer) came to the scene of the crime shortly after Filomena called him. Very shortly after the discovery of the body.

She also made Knox call police when she knew perfectly well Knoxs Italian was limited at best. And rather than call Merediths phones herself she asked Knox to do that. Why?

Nothing in evidence makes Knox a better candidate as a suspect than Filomena...nothing except for the smoke and mirrors.

Personally I think that the time line after the murder is far more interesting to me. Watching as the whole thing evolves and noting when the police formed their conclusion and started with confirmation bias.

It was actually pretty early on.

The police jumped to the conclusion that the burglary was staged, and from here they started to go wrong. There were a number of reasons for believing that the scene was staged, but a lot of them just don't stack up when actually viewed in the light of day.

* It would be hard to throw a rock through the small gap in the outer shutters. (Mignini)

This assumes that the position of the shutters when the rock was thrown was the same as the position of the shutters the next morning. However, an intruder could have easily opened the shutters from the outside (Filomena notes that she was not able to pull them tight and lock them due to the wood having expanded) then thrown the rock through the now entirely open shutters, before closing them once more after entry. Of course since they were hard to close, any intruder would likely pull them shut but not enough to prevent the wind popping them open leaving them half open as they were found in the morning.

* Nothing appeared to be taken (Various people)

While laptops were obviously not touched (with perhaps the exception of Filomena's which had fallen over) crime scene photos indicate that someone had gone through several of the girl's drawers. It may well be that an intruder was after money or pot and considered the laptops hard to dispose of. Since we know that any intruder would be Rudy and that he had previously stolen a laptop which he had had difficulty getting rid of, and was eventually caught with, the odds are that he would not be willing to try taking and fencing those items again. The girls were unlikely to have told the police if their dope was missing.

* No glass outside (Various people)

The larger shards of glass will be propelled into the room with the rock. Tiny slivers will go outwards, but these will not be easy to see, and there was no serious forensics done in this area to look for such small shards, in fact the police trampled all over it and used it as a smoko area thus destroying any evidence that would have been there.

* Wrong window to choose (Mignini)

The claim is that no burglar would have chosen this window to gain entry. This is because it is visible from the street, driveway, and car park area. Suggestions have been made that the better place would have been the balcony/patio on the other side of the house. In fact this is incorrect. Filomena's window is poorly visible from the road until you are almost opposite the cottage, the street lights are behind a row of trees above the driveway meaning that it is shaded. While visible from the drive and car park area, it also allows any intruder the ability to throw a rock from the car park area and should that disturb anyone inside, retreat up the drive with relative ease. It also allows an intruder the ability to drop down into the darkness of the lower lawn should they fear being observed. These are all positives for picking this window for entry. The balcony is visible from a large part of the road to the east of the Cottage meaning that anyone travelling from that direction would have a clear view of it. There are streetlights right across the road that would light the balcony and once on the balcony there is little chance of making a quick and easy escape if the intruder fears being spotted or disturbs the inhabitants of the cottage. These are serious disadvantages for picking this way of entry.

Once this fateful decision has been made (that the burglary was staged) the case takes the wrong turn.

With the police now sure that it was staged, they make the assumption that a staged burglary means the killer(s) tried to throw the scent off onto a stranger, which must mean that the killers were known to Meredith. Without a way to enter the Cottage (with the window ruled out) the only entrance is via the front door, and that requires a key. That means that the killer was one of the housemates. Laura had an iron cast alibi so this left just Knox and Filomena. Filomena lawyered up, and according to many people, Knox's behaviour was strange, so the police turned their attention to her.

At this point I suspect that the police didn't consider her as a killer, but rather involved. The initial reports put black hair in Meredith's hand, and I suspect they were after a black suspect based on this and the CCTV footage of Rudy. Knox again fit the profile they were building because she knew and had a close relationship with a black man, her boss Patrick, someone else that knew Meredith. Gaining her phone records would have shown them the texts from and to Patrick on the night in question, further adding to the fire and then there is the meeting between Knox and Patrick where Patrick questioned how the case was going.

I firmly believe that police were following Knox by this stage and so would have certainly noticed and reported this meeting. I believe that this is the point that the police decided that they had solved it. Knox had meet with Patrick as suggested by the texts between them, they had gone to the Cottage where Patrick having a crush on Meredith had attempted to get her to have sex, and failing, he had killed her. It all made sense at this point, except that Knox still had an alibi, Raffelle.

So they called them in. The objective of that night was to first break Raffelle's alibi for Knox and then once they had done that, use what they had, and a few lies to get Knox to crack and give up their prime suspect, Patrick.

Once they had convinced Raff that it was possible that Knox had left, they called in Knox and confronted her with the evidence. Raff dropping her alibi, saying she left. The CCTV footage of her going to the cottage (Which they believed was Knox at the start but was likely Meredith.) The texts between her and Patrick saying they would meet up. Telling her that she was lying each time she denied it, telling her that they knew the truth and that unless she told them what had happened she was going to jail for 30 years.

When that failed, they brought in the "interpreter" to do the whole local amnesia trick, convincing her that the evidence proves that she was there, they had her on tape going there, they had proof that she was in the cottage with Patrick, so the only reason she couldn't remember was that she was traumatised, that if she really wanted to help, she should try and remember, try and imagine what had happened to Meredith that night. This time it worked, the techniques used created a false memory as she "imagined" what happened.

And at that point it all fell into place for the police. They knew what had happened, and Knox confirmed every part for them. The fact that she only told them what they had already told her didn't matter, they had her "confession" on paper. Case Closed.

The issue of course it that everything the police thought was true in those first few days would turn out to be completely wrong, and so likewise, because it was feed to her by the police based on what they thought they knew, everything in Knox's "Confession" is also totally wrong as well. The irony of this seems to have been missed by a lot of people.

 

[Kaosium]

The question of interest is only how the story changed in her book. Apparently she wrote (or her ghost writer) that she didn't see the purse. Now I'd say that it was a mistake or after 5 years she now believed that she hadn't seen it.

Let's see the quote then. Does she specifically say she didn't see the purse, or does she just say she looked through the keyhole and in the context of (now) knowing there was a body in there say she saw nothing?

Heh, I just checked "Honor Bound" and didn't find anything about it, but I did find this little gem, coming right after she thinks the dump in the toilet was gone, Amanda says:

"What if the intruder's still here and he's locked himself in Meredith's room?"

ETA: should have kept reading, Raffaele directly afterward mentions them looking through the keyhole and seeing the purse.

But what does it mean? Why does Vogt feature it in her last little foray?

Clearly if she would have written the same thing in her book there would be no issue for Vogt or Briar. Really the only thing to conclude is that both are desperate for an issue.

Pretty much, I'm just curious as to whether Vogt came up with (most or much of) the 'material' for that article or whether she had 'help.'

 

[Grinder]

he's lucky he didn't knock that door down as they most assuredly would have entered, tracking their footprints and who knows what else inside with them, and the way the PLE perceived them, they would have been toast (& they might be anyway)

If guilty, it would have made more sense for them to discover the body and enter the room. They certainly would have thought that their DNA would be found in the murder room but if they went in and tried to save her they would have had reason for it to be there. They could have lifted her to the bed. They would have blood all over themselves for legitimate reasons.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Why is it significant?

Because when you start from the premise of her being guilty, everything she says or does or forgets to say or do or didn't say or do, or said she did but didn't or did but forgot and said she didn't, is further evidence that she is guilty because only a guilty person would have done, or not do whatever it is she did, or didn't do.

 

[Supernaut]

Any time, Supernaut. I've always thought you have a great sense of humor.







I have the same problem with hats. When my son was a baby, his height and weight were in the 25th percentile, and his head size was in the 95th. He got that from me.

You have a big head? No!

Look at it this way - big brain, thick skull, or both - how can it be anything but an advantage?

 

[Kaosium]

Yes she did and that's where the PGP got it. I mean, really, if this makes their radar not much in the book can be obviously making her guilty.

I don't think so, I'm pretty sure that has come up before, I betcha it's in the Cartwheel's thread. Somewhat different formulation though, you see in her e-mail home she didn't mention the keyhole or the purse at all!

 

[Kaosium]

And at that point it all fell into place for the police. They knew what had happened, and Knox confirmed every part for them. The fact that she only told them what they had already told her didn't matter, they had her "confession" on paper. Case Closed.

The issue of course it that everything the police thought was true in those first few days would turn out to be completely wrong, and so likewise, because it was feed to her by the police based on what they thought they knew, everything in Knox's "Confession" is also totally wrong as well. The irony of this seems to have been missed by a lot of people.

Brilliant, you--not them. It must have made so much sense to them, especially going off statistics that indicate much of the time a murderer is close to, or even lives with, the victim.