Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

I have no idea how to do that, but I have done this so many times, I do it once more just for you. It would certainly take too long to go over everything, so I'll give you some key points and if you have any questions, I'll answer them.

-Amanda left Raff to go home, get the mop and likely change so their now free evening, they could do something, they now had the next 3 days off.
-Amanda runs into Rudi at the ball court, they talk, Rudi has to use a washroom and Amanda offers hers.
-Meredith may already be home but while Rudi is in the washroom, Amanda and Meredith get into an argument, maybe about Rudi being there, maybe Meredith is missing money, few know, but Rudi comes to Amanda's defense and a fight ensures, Meredith is stronger than Rudi thinks.
-Amanda has to put her hands over her ears to drown out the screaming and 'thuds', she is in the kitchen.
-Amanda runs to Raff's to get help, Rudi has scared the **** out of here, but she doesn't think Meredith's life is in danger, but Rudi is assaulting her, physically. Raff grabs the biggest knife in his drawer and follows Amanda to the cottage.
-Amanda too scared to go in, stays outside while Raff goes in, (hence her clever prose during the appeal where she states that this is the first time the three of them have been under the same roof)
-Raff confronts Rudi in the living room, 'black man found, black man guilty' and then he runs out the door because he is no hero.
-Raff and Amanda leave together, see by Rudi thru Filameno's window. They go to the park where they are seen by Toto the hobo and discuss what to do next while Raff try to keep an eye on the cottage gate to see when Rudi leaves.

This is enough for now, questions I suppose.....

Do you not believe the kitchen knife was used in the murder? Or that Raffaele's DNA is on the bra clasp?

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
My bet is that Bruce Budowle is a Mason. Probably got big money from David Marriott to skew the results.

I don't know why you still try, Kaosium, to argue common sense. It's a Masonic conspiracy. Face it.

Bruce Budowle did something else. He polluted the Vechiotti-Conti report.
The one I believe corrupts are Vecchiotti and Conti; Budowle instead took part to a crime - and there is evidence of this - which was to cooperate with Vecchiotti and Conti, basically helping them to write their report.

 

[Grinder]

Quote:
You proudly quoted or was it paraphrased a FBI retired agent that said something like - it couldn't be the murder weapon without testing positive for blood - I posited that it could be bone.

I'm pretty sure that is wildly unlikely.

Wildly? Are you then agreeing that with a negative TMB test for blood the knife can not possibly have been used in the murder or for that matter have had blood on it 4 days before being confiscated?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock, I bet you don't have any statistics on how many people think she was involved versus how many think she wasn't. If there were that many people who thought Amanda were guilty, don't you think there would be more working with PMF and TJMK to see that the defendants are re-convicted and sent back to prison? It seems to me there are many more supporters than pro-guilt people.

Here is an opinion piece that is diametrically opposed to your claim that Amanda did everything wrong. In fact, the author comes right out and says, "Amanda did everything right." See what you think: http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Amanda-Knox-Stop-Making-Sense/2953312

Mary, I read that just for you, but really, I disagreed with a great deal of it, it is fine if your a PIP, read the comments after, they loved it and I don't blame them, they believe in her innocence 100 percent like most here do, but if you question Amanda's involvement, it then make little sense. I believe Amanda was suspected early on for very good reasons, I see no comparison between her ordeal and Michelle Knight, perhaps if Amanda were innocent, but I don't feel that is the case here.

 

[Bill Williams]

Mary, I read that just for you, but really, I disagreed with a great deal of it, it is fine if your a PIP, read the comments after, they loved it and I don't blame them, they believe in her innocence 100 percent like most here do, but if you question Amanda's involvement, it then make little sense. I believe Amanda was suspected early on for very good reasons, I see no comparison between her ordeal and Michelle Knight, perhaps if Amanda were innocent, but I don't feel that is the case here.

Which were her odd behaviour? Leading to a "cased closed" where even in your scenario there's no forensics of Knox in Meredith's room?

It may just be me, and you're certainly under no obligation to answer, but what prior to the disasterous Nov 5/6 interrogation pointed to involvement in a murder? That Raffaele was insistent that they see the pooh in the toilet?

I guess I just offer this rhetorically, Sherlock... no need to answer. I think we can write eat other's posts by now!

I believe the ONLY reason to suspect Knox was that she was one of the keyholders.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Do you not believe the kitchen knife was used in the murder? Or that Raffaele's DNA is on the bra clasp?

I do not believe the knife was used in the murder, but it was at the murder scene and it will be in Meredith's room later that night. The bra clasp I have no real idea how Raff's DNA got on it, I don't believe it was contamination, maybe when he was in her room, checking if she were still alive, he touched it, ripped it off rolling her over, I do not know, he does seem a bit weird but I'm not sure.

 

[Machiavelli]

Mach,

do you know if there is any reporting in English on the body swap trial and the Narducci case. I see it referred to as a double body swap but no details are provided in mostly
anti--Mignini articles, but the scenario sounds more like a single body swap

I don't know about any report in English. As far as I know the body 'swap' was only one (two bodies, one swap, occurred in 1985; actually the swap was a staging, one body of a black immigrant was just taken from a cemetery morgue and used for a staging, immerged for 5 days and than dragged up on the lake pier, than was brought back to the morgue); this was found and established by proceedings n. 8970/2002.

 

[RandyN]

It's not me moving the goalposts. Massei had to deal with the issue that the crevises could not be found, because experts had testified at earlier hearings that they, too, had examined the knife and could not find the crevices to which Stefanoni referred:



To this, Massei said that Professor Cingolani was mistaken, because he "probably" did not look at the knife under the same light conditions, and he "probably" did not move the knife from side to side to catch the crevices in differing light.... as opposed to Stefanoni who probably did.

I point out the "probably" because in Massei this type of guess work is fairly common. Probably? How about probably not?

I like your cross exam of Stefanoni....heres one more question I would ask.

Did you place the knife under a microscope and photograph these scratches and this material? No? Why not?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Which were her odd behaviour? Leading to a "cased closed" where even in your scenario there's no forensics of Knox in Meredith's room?

It may just be me, and you're certainly under no obligation to answer, but what prior to the disasterous Nov 5/6 interrogation pointed to involvement in a murder? That Raffaele was insistent that they see the pooh in the toilet?

I guess I just offer this rhetorically, Sherlock... no need to answer. I think we can write eat other's posts by now!

I believe the ONLY reason to suspect Knox was that she was one of the keyholders.

No not poo, most likely the way the two acted on the second and so on, even others around her found their actions and words strange. Why did the police tap their phones and not the others?

 

[naisel]

Why would C and V call Hellmann about the two loads of thugs then? And why would Hellmann explain to not give the DVD since a copy was already in the case file inside the Perugia Court House?

When I posted I only knew what I read in that quote and in the Italian website; if that's what happened then that Italian source was incomplete and its use to back what Sfarzo reported was unfortunate.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary, I read that just for you, but really, I disagreed with a great deal of it, it is fine if your a PIP, read the comments after, they loved it and I don't blame them, they believe in her innocence 100 percent like most here do, but if you question Amanda's involvement, it then make little sense. I believe Amanda was suspected early on for very good reasons, I see no comparison between her ordeal and Michelle Knight, perhaps if Amanda were innocent, but I don't feel that is the case here.

Thank you for reading that just for me. You are right, it does start with the assumption Amanda is 100% innocent.

 

[Bill Williams]

No not poo, most likely the way the two acted on the second and so on, even others around her found their actions and words strange. Why did the police tap their phones and not the others?

I'm not sure anyone can say for sure that the cops didn't tap EVERYONE'S phones, but as for an answer to your question, I don't really know.

In reading the books, though, it is clear that Napoleoni had a hostile relationship with those two from the start. In my opinion, that was unfair by Napoleoni and tragic for the investigation - not to mention that this may the the main thing that pulled things so badly off the rails.

Heck, even according to John Follain, a friend to the cops and the prosecution, Marco Chiacchiera was recommending that Napoleoni and Mignini NOT act on Knox's "information" as found at interrogation.

The pooh is important in the sense that Napoleoni formed an opinion that these two, out of everyone, seemed overly eager for the cops to find things. Given that Knox, and less so Sollecito, were the only ones who knew about the turd, for me I don't see their excitement about it as suspicious.

It goes with the damned if they did, damned if they didn't. For heaven's sake, her friend had just been murdered and unknown pooh was in the toilet. Why wouldn't they be insistent that the cops see it?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bruce Budowle did something else. He polluted the Vechiotti-Conti report.
The one I believe corrupts are Vecchiotti and Conti; Budowle instead took part to a crime - and there is evidence of this - which was to cooperate with Vecchiotti and Conti, basically helping them to write their report.

Do you think at some point Conti and Vecchiotti will be charged with a crime? Do you think Hellmann and Zanetti will also be charged with a crime?

 

[Dan O.]

yowza, that looks like a lot of work to model the cottage, etc.wish I had the discipline to do it

To model a single corner where all the angle are perpendicular is rather trivial. I didn't have a good photo of the entry way before but i'll see what I can whip up when I get a chance.

I tried to talk Google into adding a proper multi-photo matching and modeling function to Sketchup which would have made modeling whole buildings a snap but they were probably already in negotiations to sell the program to Trimble.

I sent Barbie an email, I'll let you know if I get a response

It will be interesting to hear her story. It would have been more interesting to watch her reaction when presented with a blown up and enhanced version of her photo but I can settle for this.

 

[RandyN]

I'm saying, what is quite clear, that all DNA isn't blood related. I do not have any proof that it was bone and clearly gave an example of something that could be there without blood remaining.

I was responding to some FBI's quote (or in the case of Bill alleged quote) that if there is no blood it can't have been the murder weapon.

Perhaps Chris has an example of non-blood DNA being found on a knife.

Click - click

I agree that the blood requirement is not valid to determine if this was a murder weapon or not. It could be a skin cell etc...the real issue is that nothing about the knife fits including this highly suspect area B sample...which is so small that it could actually be zero picograms...which means there never was anything there.

I restate that a valid scientist discovering a "sample in a scratch" has the duty to document that sample. In this case quite easy since she claims to see it with good lighting and tipping the knife one way or another...the logical and proper thing to do as a next step is to toss it on a regular good old microscope that is found in almost any lab that does this kind of work...light up and magnify the alleged sample and snap some photos...

I contend there is a reason she failed to do this...and the reason is because there was never anything to see...in fact the knife was not all that clean and had a rather definitive dirty area near what would be the hilt...though this knife did not have a hilt...but where blade meets handle...lots of dirt and crap there...this is where C and V found the starch...this is the logical place to look for blood or DNA because the area is harder to clean which is exactly why it is black on this particular knife.

No blood is necessary but when you can see a sample with your eyes...there certainly is no reason to not document and photograph it...unless you are a lying liar...

 

[Grinder]

I agree that the blood requirement is not valid to determine if this was a murder weapon or not. It could be a skin cell etc...the real issue is that nothing about the knife fits including this highly suspect area B sample...which is so small that it could actually be zero picograms...which means there never was anything there.

And I agree. Have always agreed. Just didn't buy the FBI rule of blood.

I restate that a valid scientist discovering a "sample in a scratch" has the duty to document that sample. In this case quite easy since she claims to see it with good lighting and tipping the knife one way or another...the logical and proper thing to do as a next step is to toss it on a regular good old microscope that is found in almost any lab that does this kind of work...light up and magnify the alleged sample and snap some photos...

Agrree but still don't buy the FBI blood rule.

I contend there is a reason she failed to do this...and the reason is because there was never anything to see...in fact the knife was not all that clean and had a rather definitive dirty area near what would be the hilt...though this knife did not have a hilt...but where blade meets handle...lots of dirt and crap there...this is where C and V found the starch...this is the logical place to look for blood or DNA because the area is harder to clean which is exactly why it is black on this particular knife.

Sure.

No blood is necessary but when you can see a sample with your eyes...there certainly is no reason to not document and photograph it...unless you are a lying liar...

I'm no fan of Stefaphony.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm not sure anyone can say for sure that the cops didn't tap EVERYONE'S phones, but as for an answer to your question, I don't really know.

In reading the books, though, it is clear that Napoleoni had a hostile relationship with those two from the start. In my opinion, that was unfair by Napoleoni and tragic for the investigation - not to mention that this may the the main thing that pulled things so badly off the rails.

Heck, even according to John Follain, a friend to the cops and the prosecution, Marco Chiacchiera was recommending that Napoleoni and Mignini NOT act on Knox's "information" as found at interrogation.

The pooh is important in the sense that Napoleoni formed an opinion that these two, out of everyone, seemed overly eager for the cops to find things. Given that Knox, and less so Sollecito, were the only ones who knew about the turd, for me I don't see their excitement about it as suspicious.

It goes with the damned if they did, damned if they didn't. For heaven's sake, her friend had just been murdered and unknown pooh was in the toilet. Why wouldn't they be insistent that the cops see it?

How did they know it was unknown poo? She didn't try flushing it, maybe it was Filomena's and the toilet broke, how would she know. How did she even see it in the first place, she shouldn't have even been in that room, the blow dryer was in the laundry room next to the bathroom on the bench, and the plug in and mirror are next to the washer, even further away.

 

[RandyN]

Sherlock, I bet you don't have any statistics on how many people think she was involved versus how many think she wasn't. If there were that many people who thought Amanda were guilty, don't you think there would be more working with PMF and TJMK to see that the defendants are re-convicted and sent back to prison? It seems to me there are many more supporters than pro-guilt people.

Here is an opinion piece that is diametrically opposed to your claim that Amanda did everything wrong. In fact, the author comes right out and says, "Amanda did everything right." See what you think: http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Amanda-Knox-Stop-Making-Sense/2953312

This is indeed one of the best articles written that describes what happened and why...blaming the victim creates a smokescreen that allows the police and prosecutor to duck out the back door without being questioned or investigated.

Besides we all know they picked out Amanda because of those steely blue eyes...laugh but I am positive that was talked about in many stories...

 

[RandyN]

I do not believe the knife was used in the murder, but it was at the murder scene and it will be in Meredith's room later that night. The bra clasp I have no real idea how Raff's DNA got on it, I don't believe it was contamination, maybe when he was in her room, checking if she were still alive, he touched it, ripped it off rolling her over, I do not know, he does seem a bit weird but I'm not sure.

Really really? How do you reconcile the fact that Miss Kerchers bare breasts have tiny aspirated blood droplets covering them? So Miss Kercher must have been alive yet when this RS DNA was deposited? Where are his traces? You know...footprints, fingerprints, anything besides this one highly questionable trace that included the traces of at least 3 others...4 peoples DNA on the tiny metal hook...I find that troubling.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Really really? How do you reconcile the fact that Miss Kerchers bare breasts have tiny aspirated blood droplets covering them? So Miss Kercher must have been alive yet when this RS DNA was deposited? Where are his traces? You know...footprints, fingerprints, anything besides this one highly questionable trace that included the traces of at least 3 others...4 peoples DNA on the tiny metal hook...I find that troubling.

Like I said, I don't know, it's a puzzle, we don't know all the reasons, all Raff did in the room was check to see if she was alive I would think, maybe he took his shoes off before hand this time and did step in blood in the room, hopped on his other foot to the bathroom and left the bloody foot print we all know about.