Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[GWCarver]

I'm from the US and you rarely hear about libel and slander cases, I dont think the laws are as tight here as they are overseas and specifically in Europe/Great Britain.

Can anyone from Europe/Great Britain explain why its so much more strict over there?

Seems odd from my perspective as I don't see any big downside to people not being able to sue over every careless word here in the US.

The fact that people like Mignini can file suit incessantly over every perceived slight, is really troubling to me. It quashes peoples willingness to speak out and creates an unspoken censorship because it doesn't matter if you're innocent, you still get dragged into court and have to spend time and money to defend yourself. And when you're up against a professional like Mignini with the added powers of his role in ILE, one would be at a distinct disadvantage even if you had the time and resources to try and fight him.

I just get the vibe these strict libel/slander laws create a level of censorship that may be more damaging than whatever protections are derived from them.

What do the Euro's & Brits say about these laws? Do you think they're onerous? Is the US too lax?

BTW, that was RandyN's quote that somehow was attributed to me. AngloLawyer answered your question about the U.K. libel laws a few quotes back.

The problem in Italy is the whole judicial system is independent with no checks and balances from the other parts of their government, and calunnia is the glue that holds the whole thing together, IMO. I would love to know how many of those charges have been leveled by Mignini since he has been a PM. He's reluctant to file those suits, though. He said so.

 

[Briars]

That, then (highlighted), is your problem.

Are the Kercher's hurling insults? Are they posting about Amanda on Line Why condone hitting them directly about their great loss Bill? You and Chris are willfully ignoring the difference. Chris you might want to stick with pushing your science talk as you're out of your comfort zone here.

 

[bookworm]

No one left to step in and object to this bottom of the barrel scum talk. Great company for all of you. The writing on the wall must be causing you to loose all sense of decency. The professor should cringe at the thought of one of his students reading whats posted here against a murdered student's family.

Seriously, though, the act of being murdered doesn't automatically elevate your family to perfection.

 

[DrTesla]

Are the Kercher's hurling insults? Are they posting about Amanda on Line Why condone hitting them directly about their great loss Bill? You and Chris are willfully ignoring the difference. Chris you might want to stick with pushing your science talk as you're out of your comfort zone here.

the Kerchers seem like a much nicer family than the Knoxes across the board and I'm not just saying that out of bias for the victim. I think it's difficult to try to paint them as foaming at the mouth with bloodlust for the two accused. Meredith's sister almost looks like a twin based on the picture I seen of the victim and a video clip I seen of her sister speaking. It's not hard to conclude that the victim had much more to offer the world than Knox.

Knox's mom probabaly isn't that bad but her dad seems like a nasty man. j

I would love to know what the other family members think in Knox's extended family about her guilt. You got to think there is a fairly large faction of them that think she's guilty. I bet that makes for some awkward family gatherings on holidays.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm thinking that Amanda can use Mignini's Narducci fiasco, the resulting Supreme Court decision against him, and the Follain, Barbie, etc. satanic oriented quotes from early in her case to prove her assertion he is indeed a madman and therefore his charges of slander are bogus. (OK, that is assuming the truth is an adequate defense against slander in Perugia.) The Supreme Court said Narducci committed suicide - there was no murder - and that means the entire, convoluted conspiracy existed only in Mignini's head.

But it's not true.
The Supreme Court never said Narducci comitted suicide.
Morover, there is another trial that already found out that the body swap actually took place.

And actually the Narducci case was not a fiasco, that was a great victory for Mignini.

 

[DrTesla]

But it's not true.
The Supreme Court never said Narducci comitted suicide.
Morover, there is another trial that already found out that the body swap actually took place.

And actually the Narducci case was not a fiasco, that was a great victory for Mignini.

Mach,

do you know if there is any reporting in English on the body swap trial and the Narducci case. I see it referred to as a double body swap but no details are provided in mostly
anti--Mignini articles, but the scenario sounds more like a single body swap

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I see them as completely separate issues. Anyone with a shred of decency should recognize that they are in different class.You don't go after the victim's family because people say mean things about the accused period!!They are not defendants in this ongoing case. They have the right to the full court process, and have remained respectful in spite of it all. Any outlandish payback to them to support Amanda has the opposite effect.

I agree. The Kerchers had a situation thrust on them for which they were totally unprepared. Unlike those of us who are discussing the case on the Internet, they did not choose to become involved. I think it is intrinsically unfair for any of us to critique their actions, words and especially their motives, which are a matter of pure guesswork.

Nor did the Kerchers have any say in who investigated the murder of their daughter. They suffered an irreparable loss, and their misfortune was compounded by incompetent local authorities who elevated their own pride and self-interest above all else. The thugs who mete out what passes for criminal justice in Perugia have one paramount skill: they know how to exploit human frailty. They did their utmost to destroy a couple of innocent college kids, and they led a grieving family into a long corridor of darkness.

I spent several years of my life doing everything I could to help the public understand that Amanda and Raffaele are completely innocent. I became part of a group of people with that goal. The tools we have, that our adversaries will never have, are fact and reason.

PhantomWolf described his experience, with this as his starting point:

"What I knew about the case was via the media and so I knew that the police had found AKs bloody footprints, that there was mixed AM/MK blood in the bathroom, that they had DNA evidence on a knife that proved it was the murder weapon, that witnesses placed them at the scene of the crime, etc. To me there was no reason to assume anything else but guilt."

He describes what changed his mind:

"I started looking at the crime scene photos, reading more, watching the videos, bring back questions, questions the PIPs answered quickly and easily, questions that the PGPs avoided and refused to answer."

In the end, he says, "the whole house of cards crumbles."

That is the power of fact and reason. Some are impervious, but those whose opinion counts, those who lead society in forming a consensus, will embrace fact and reason if it is available to them and they take the time to investigate.

That is what I have tried to facilitate. I would not presume to judge the Kerchers or try to convince them of anything. But maybe, by promoting fact and reason, I can help indirectly. I know what really happened to their beloved Meredith. Maybe someday, they will know too. Maybe it will give them some measure of peace. I can only hope.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree. The Kerchers had a situation thrust on them for which they were totally unprepared. Unlike those of us who are discussing the case on the Internet, they did not choose to become involved. I think it is intrinsically unfair for any of us to critique their actions, words and especially their motives, which are a matter of pure guesswork.

Nor did the Kerchers have any say in who investigated the murder of their daughter. They suffered an irreparable loss, and their misfortune was compounded by incompetent local authorities who elevated their own pride and self-interest above all else. The thugs who mete out what passes for criminal justice in Perugia have one paramount skill: they know how to exploit human frailty. They did their utmost to destroy a couple of innocent college kids, and they led a grieving family into a long corridor of darkness.

I spent several years of my life doing everything I could to help the public understand that Amanda and Raffaele are completely innocent. I became part of a group of people with that goal. The tools we have, that our adversaries will never have, are fact and reason.

PhantomWolf described his experience, with this as his starting point:

"What I knew about the case was via the media and so I knew that the police had found AKs bloody footprints, that there was mixed AM/MK blood in the bathroom, that they had DNA evidence on a knife that proved it was the murder weapon, that witnesses placed them at the scene of the crime, etc. To me there was no reason to assume anything else but guilt."

He describes what changed his mind:

"I started looking at the crime scene photos, reading more, watching the videos, bring back questions, questions the PIPs answered quickly and easily, questions that the PGPs avoided and refused to answer."

In the end, he says, "the whole house of cards crumbles."

That is the power of fact and reason. Some are impervious, but those whose opinion counts, those who lead society in forming a consensus, will embrace fact and reason if it is available to them and they take the time to investigate.

That is what I have tried to facilitate. I would not presume to judge the Kerchers or try to convince them of anything. But maybe, by promoting fact and reason, I can help indirectly. I know what really happened to their beloved Meredith. Maybe someday, they will know too. Maybe it will give them some measure of peace. I can only hope.

Well, since you yourself have been judged here recently, I will offer my six penn'orth (=two cents) that your involvement does you great credit and if I had had the chance to do as much good in a case as clearly warranting it as this one does I should have counted myself privileged.

 

[DrTesla]

That is what I have tried to facilitate. I would not presume to judge the Kerchers or try to convince them of anything. But maybe, by promoting fact and reason, I can help indirectly. I know what really happened to their beloved Meredith. Maybe someday, they will know too. Maybe it will give them some measure of peace. I can only hope.

have you told Knox/Raffe's defense lawyers what you know about how the murder took place? that could be useful as it doesn't seem like they got a clue and Judgment Day is coming real soon.

how are you promoting reason when you say you knew Knox was innocent b/c she falsely accused an innocent man but not Rudy? that is twisted logic at best.

 

[DrTesla]

it's funny how Friends always give their unsolicited personal testimony on how they first came to believe Knox is their Lord and Savior not guilty. there are religious overtones.

they always predictably start out saying they thought Knox was guilty at first but started studying the evidence and knew she was innocent. the reason they giving for originally thinking she was guilty is usually the cartwheels at the station. I get the feeling some of these guys are working off a script the PR wrote up and sent out.

 

[Kaosium]

I really don't see the need to degrade anyone, Amanda, Kerchers or anyone else in the case really, and the PIP's seem to do this a lot, Stef, Mignini, and on and on. If this were just about Amanda and the Kerchers, the Kerchers should be hands off by all means, it doesn't make you a bigger or better man to say derogatory about them, Amanda on the other hand has been found guilty of murder so some could understand perhaps name calling on that side.

Stefanoni and Mignini are public officials paid by the state who should be scrutinized when they display signs of incompetence and corruption: they have to be.

Amanda and Raffaele are and have always been considered innocent until final conviction through the Supreme Court. Had they been found innocent in the Trial of the First Instance we'd still be here at this juncture, Mignini can and--as this now shows--probably would have appealed. It could have been over after the acquittal, but it's not.

 

[Kaosium]

The thing with the distances you mention is one of Zeno's paradoxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes). The thing with that is that it is actually possible to sum an infinite numer of terms in such way that you get the corrrect distance in the end.

Thank you for the link!

This is a famous old paradox. I think some Greek came up with it. The way I learned it, it was frog swimming across a pool. Well, I hope it's not too OT and I bet you know anyway but the 'solution' has something to do with the fact that two different types of infinity are being conflated. One as in numbers, which go on for ever and the other as in infinite divisibility of a finite thing, like a swimming pool. Something like that.

ETA sorry - just saw MDDVS's post.

Ah, it was Achilles with the tortoise at MDDVS's link, and how I remember it being told come to think of it--at least at some point if not the one I referred to.

Personally I figure once Achilles gets close enough he spears the tortoise and has turtle stew, that puts an end to it and he runs faster and longer with food in him. There's more than one way to untie the Gordian Knot!

Did you notice there's a mention of a lamp at that link! Coincidence? I think not!

 

[Bill Williams]

it's funny how Friends always give their unsolicited personal testimony on how they first came to believe Knox is their Lord and Savior not guilty. there are religious overtones.

they always predictably start out saying they thought Knox was guilty at first but started studying the evidence and knew she was innocent. the reason they giving for originally thinking she was guilty is usually the cartwheels at the station. I get the feeling some of these guys are working off a script the PR wrote up and sent out.

I've heard this particular conspiracy theory so many times, I am beginning to think that there is a defamer's PR script going around!

 

[bookworm]

LOL...you are one of three persons...The Machine (Harry Rag), Kermit, or Pervert Quennell himself. You style matches Harry Rag. Quennell is even less balanced in his arguments, and Kermit...he cant go a day or make a post without a powerpoint so I am going with The machine (harry rag).

The quantity of his posts also supports this.

 

[Bill Williams]

That, then (highlighted), is your problem.

Are the Kercher's hurling insults? Are they posting about Amanda on Line Why condone hitting them directly about their great loss Bill? You and Chris are willfully ignoring the difference. Chris you might want to stick with pushing your science talk as you're out of your comfort zone here.

I apologize if I have caused any confusion on this.

I said this was your problem, not theirs.

 

[GWCarver]

But it's not true.
The Supreme Court never said Narducci comitted suicide.
Morover, there is another trial that already found out that the body swap actually took place.

And actually the Narducci case was not a fiasco, that was a great victory for Mignini.

By "great victory" you mean some of the ubiquitous slander cases are still alive because they were sent back down for retrial? Please explain how the following google-translated quotes show anything but a massive defeat for Mignini in his Monster of Florence fiasco:

"The case is closed Narducci for us - says Falcinelli -. End of the allegations, falls on the conspiracy that was the cornerstone of the process. Francis died of a suicide. "

"But the demands of the Attorney General have been debased. " "The Court, rejecting the appeals of the Prosecutor of the Republic and the civil part - he said Zaganelli -, confirmed as three years ago, the preliminary hearing judge ruled: there has never been murder, concealment of a corpse or replacement. Never the commissioner Trio and law enforcement began on hand to hide any murder and to make exchanges of corpses. The case Narducci is permanently closed. "

http://m.ilmessaggero.it/m/messaggero/articolo/umbria/260272

 

[DrTesla]

I've heard this particular conspiracy theory so many times, I am beginning to think that there is a defamer's PR script going around!

I don't need anybody to write me a script to defame somebody but not sure what I could be saying that is defamation of her. She more or less admits to having a lot of sex in her book to make it seem like that is the only reason she was a suspect in this murder that she acts like is just some kind of sideshow.

how can you really defame a girl who falsely accused her boss, the African boy of nearly 40 years, of rape plus murder. I can't say anything about her that tops that.

 

[Kaosium]

Are the Kercher's hurling insults? Are they posting about Amanda on Line Why condone hitting them directly about their great loss Bill? You and Chris are willfully ignoring the difference. Chris you might want to stick with pushing your science talk as you're out of your comfort zone here.

Amanda and Raffaele's tragedy (and that of both families) was caused mainly by Napoleoni, Stefanoni, Mignini and Maresca.


Meredith Kercher was killed by Rudy Guede more than five years ago now. Keeping alive the delusion that the Kerchers were denied justice because they were rightfully freed can do nothing but bring them even more pain, as they may have even more difficulty coming to terms with the death of their beloved.

No one here is defending the Kerchers, they're helping them to more suffering by keeping alive this idiocy. They're defending Mignini, Maresca, Napoleoni and Stefanoni whose corrupt bungling caused the Kerchers infinitely more pain that may never fade like it should in time.

Let Meredith Kercher rest in peace.

 

[DrTesla]

The quantity of his posts also supports this.

all those guys are much better writers than I am. I think my poor sentence structure alone isn't consistent with how they write and it's not like they are going to fake that for long periods of time on some comment board. I think that my interest in this case also is more for a general entertainment simply because I think Knox is so dumb she is funny, kind of a murder trial version of Sandra Fluke. The racist aspects of the case also crack me up simply b/c I know if they were understood by the American public she wouldn't be getting this softball interviews on the race conscious liberal networks like CNN. those guys are much more serious about it than me which is cool but I just don't want to get too worked up over this b/c life already has enough obstacles already without taking on justice for a murdered girl that you don't know.

Since we are giving personal testimonies it was Kermit's powerpoint on all the evidence against Knox that helped me understand the overwhelming evidence against her for the first time. that was a great presenation for a lawyer not involved with the trial and I enjoyed his use of humor in it.

Why do you keep accusing this Peter guy of being a pervert? that would be real hard to believe.

Is Machine the one that runs the MurderofMeredithKercher website? .

the reason I been on here so much is I have epilepsy and I'm switching up medications which means I can't drive for 6 months (technically, heh heh) so I been home from work because of a higher probability i'll have a seizure where I lose consciousness and I don't have whole lot to do during the week while everybody else is at work. the new med is really messing with my brain too and you guys are aware of some of my many pyschosis.

 

[RandyN]

I cannot reveal my true identity. You should view me as similar to the Bat Man, without the gay cape and costume.


I was wrong...you are none of the three I named. You are Ergon...Doctor of astrology from Toronto. Pakiloon.