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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I can't conclude the seal was broken from these photos without more information. What's odd is there is more tape on the sign on the 18th than on the 14th which I guess could mean many things but I'll just mention two:

1. The seal was broken nefariously and that person then used an abundant amount of a different type of tape to reseal the door,

or

2. The second photo was taken after forensics had completed their work inside on the 18th and represents what the door looked like after they had resealed the door and were ready to leave.

I find #2 to be more likely and logical

If you have the original photos and a tool that displays the metadata, you will see that photo was takeen at 13:14. The file name 002.jpg says this was the second shot of the sequence. The operation concluded after dark because it has to be very dark to see the luminol reactions.

What's more interesting is to enhance Barbie's photo and look behind the security gate.
 
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If you have the original photos and a tool that displays the metadata, you will see that photo was takeen at 13:14. The file name 002.jpg says this was the second shot of the sequence. The operation concluded after dark because it has to be very dark to see the luminol reactions.

What's more interesting is to enhance Barbie's photo and look behind the security gate.

Whew. I thought WWIII had broken out and no-one had told me, or something.
 
If you have the original photos and a tool that displays the metadata, you will see that photo was takeen at 13:14. The file name 002.jpg says this was the second shot of the sequence. The operation concluded after dark because it has to be very dark to see the luminol reactions.

What's more interesting is to enhance Barbie's photo and look behind the security gate.

dont know what to make of the first part of your comments

i tried to play with the image and it looks like the door might be open, is that what you're alluding to? Is the door open?
 
dont know what to make of the first part of your comments

I suspect what he's getting at is this picture cannot have been taken on the 18th after they concluded their business, because it's light out and the 'operation' concluded after dark as that's the best time to work with luminol, after any ambient daylight. The designation of the picture also suggests it was early in the series, thus when they started, not when they finished. It was my understanding as well that this was conducted into the night, having nothing to do with Dan-O's point here, but having read of it previously regarding something else. I checked "Murder in Italy" and there is no mention of when it was, though as I recall "Darkness Descending" notes it as there's a quote from Garofano (who was there if I recall correctly) regarding the luminol so if anyone has that perhaps they can see if it mentions the time of day this took place.

i tried to play with the image and it looks like the door might be open, is that what you're alluding to? Is the door open?

I think so, enhanced images have been posted before, if anyone is capable of that kind of work it would be nice to see another one as I'm unsure I could dig it up easily from the ~100k posts on this subject.
 
dont know what to make of the first part of your comments

i tried to play with the image and it looks like the door might be open, is that what you're alluding to? Is the door open?


Yes, the door is open. With the image enhanced you can even see the phone on the wall inside.


The metadata is part of the image files that you don't normally see. MediaWiki will display this information on the file page. Preview on a Mack will also show it. There should be a tool available for Windows users.

Here is part of the information recorded in 002.jpg:
Camera manufacturer NIKON CORPORATION
Camera model NIKON D80
Exposure time 1/60 sec (0.016666666666667)
F Number f/4
ISO speed rating 100
Date and time of data generation 13:14, 18 December 2007
Lens focal length 18 mm
Orientation Normal
Horizontal resolution 300 dpi
Vertical resolution 300 dpi
Software used Adobe Photoshop CS Windows
File change date and time 10:44, 19 December 2007
Y and C positioning 2
Exposure Program Normal program
Exif version 2.21
Date and time of digitizing 13:14, 18 December 2007​
 
I suspect what he's getting at is this picture cannot have been taken on the 18th after they concluded their business, because it's light out and the 'operation' concluded after dark as that's the best time to work with luminol, after any ambient daylight. The designation of the picture also suggests it was early in the series, thus when they started, not when they finished. It was my understanding as well that this was conducted into the night, having nothing to do with Dan-O's point here, but having read of it previously regarding something else. I checked "Murder in Italy" and there is no mention of when it was, though as I recall "Darkness Descending" notes it as there's a quote from Garofano (who was there if I recall correctly) regarding the luminol so if anyone has that perhaps they can see if it mentions the time of day this took place.



I think so, enhanced images have been posted before, if anyone is capable of that kind of work it would be nice to see another one as I'm unsure I could dig it up easily from the ~100k posts on this subject.

Yes, the door is open. With the image enhanced you can even see the phone on the wall inside.


The metadata is part of the image files that you don't normally see. MediaWiki will display this information on the file page. Preview on a Mack will also show it. There should be a tool available for Windows users.

Here is part of the information recorded in 002.jpg:
Camera manufacturer NIKON CORPORATION
Camera model NIKON D80
Exposure time 1/60 sec (0.016666666666667)
F Number f/4
ISO speed rating 100
Date and time of data generation 13:14, 18 December 2007
Lens focal length 18 mm
Orientation Normal
Horizontal resolution 300 dpi
Vertical resolution 300 dpi
Software used Adobe Photoshop CS Windows
File change date and time 10:44, 19 December 2007
Y and C positioning 2
Exposure Program Normal program
Exif version 2.21
Date and time of digitizing 13:14, 18 December 2007​

Thx guys, its yet another thing in this case that can be disputed because I don't have enough info to make a definitive case. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I just cant get the image clear enough to say for sure that door is open.

Sounds like Barbie has some info on this & I wish she had clarified it somewhere because if the door was open, then it seems pretty obvious someone went inside unless the iron gate over the could not be opened (someone could have reached through the holes in the grate and opened the door but never been able to get past the gate).

The Massei court was pretty definitive with their opinion the cottage was not disturbed so I wonder what made them so certain. Was the photo on the 14th brought up in some way?

Man this case frustrates me because so many things are like this in that interpretation is open enough to teeter either way based on how one views the case. The door appears open to me but I can hear someone with the opposite view calling me an idiot before it rolls off my tongue. I'd love to get more info on this to draw a firm, defendable conclusion.
 
Rudi went out the previous two night with Spanish women friends. He may not appeal to some or most of the people here on the forum but he seems like a perfectly okay looking guy to me. Giacomo on the other hand seems extremely unattractive.

We don't have any testimony from women, that I know of, saying good or bad about Rudi. Although many things were said about him that make look bad, he did have "nice" friends like the Skype guy and boys downstairs. There was no testimony that Meredith's Giacomo warned Amanda and Meredith about Rudi. He or one of his roommates invited Rudi back with the group to party at the cottage.

I'm no friend of Rudi's but before this crime, I doubt that he was known as the person being portrayed here today. As I recall, in Milan he was passive after the manager of the daycare caught him. He had a knife but no attempt to escape.
Final point on the subject: if these people knew he was stealing from women's purses why didn't they stop him and turn him in?

Perhaps it was the 2 repairmen blocking his escape and he had time to consider his chances of overcoming both guys. I think that better explains that.

Odd that police release him after this and odder still that no one to this day has bothered to track down the details of his non arrest and release to Perugia. Who has the ladies gold watch?

"These people" were RG friends. Or maybe ex-friends when they decided to talk. Interesting that his friend Giacomo, the one that turned him in to police still visits him in prison.
 
Thx guys, its yet another thing in this case that can be disputed because I don't have enough info to make a definitive case. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I just cant get the image clear enough to say for sure that door is open.

I have no idea how to do it so I can't help you there. I'm almost certain it's back in a previous thread somewhere, I'm just not sure what terms would bring it up for me, and I cannot recall with enough clarity just when it was to know which thread to search.

Sounds like Barbie has some info on this & I wish she had clarified it somewhere because if the door was open, then it seems pretty obvious someone went inside unless the iron gate over the could not be opened (someone could have reached through the holes in the grate and opened the door but never been able to get past the gate).

That's possible as well.

The Massei court was pretty definitive with their opinion the cottage was not disturbed so I wonder what made them so certain.

The cops said so. Just like they said they adhered to all the collection and evidence standards their own tapes cleared showed they did not, leading to a day of mirth during the appeal when C&V demonstrated this most effectively. You've seen that bra clasp video, probably a few times being as I've posted it a few times recently. That's not how they're supposed to do it, incidentally, from their own manuals.


Was the photo on the 14th brought up in some way?

I dunno actually, though I doubt it. With so many procedural errors one must pick and choose which ones will make the court laugh hardest! This may have lost out to something else with greater humor potential.

Man this case frustrates me because so many things are like this in that interpretation is open enough to teeter either way based on how one views the case. The door appears open to me but I can hear someone with the opposite view calling me an idiot before it rolls off my tongue. I'd love to get more info on this to draw a firm, defendable conclusion.

Me too!
 
Absolutely(click). I without a doubt know he was a thief. I'm just saying that this hindsight analysis is flawed. We know that he was in the company of two Spanish women two nights in a row and that they went to a party of a friend of the women. We know that Giacomo or someone in that group invited him in the early hours after drinking in town to party at their cottage apartment. I just don't see that he was a pariah at that time. Now yes, then no.



Yes, going to the lawyers was odd. I have no idea why he went to Milan. He might have thought it safer to sell stolen goods from Perugia there. I think he had a relative there. Surely not to break-in to the daycare facility.

Really? You do know that the same daycare was robbed of thousands of Euros in the weeks/months preceding Rudys visit. I wonder who could have done that?

The return to the law office was to return the computer that he "bought at the train station". He had no idea who stole it...but it wasn't him....heres your computer...sorry.

Guede thinks he can lie out of anything...compulsive liars often overrate their own stories...what seems logical to him actually seems well... like a lie to the average person.
 
Guede-o can Skype, BUT he doesn't email?

js202 said:
Not a non sequitur at all. In fact it was both entertaining - for a fellow surfer - and pertinent.

From an experiential account, the post drives home how universal it is that women communicate with their lovers, and even potential lovers, before relations ensue. There is no way on God's green earth that, without so much as having exchanged an email with Rudy Guede, Meredith invited him over to the cottage to hook up.
A teenager would understand that this evil sicko is a liar. And Mignini and Co intentionally tamped down this sort of logic by sequestering Guede with the fast track trial, the prepared statement offered at AK's and RS's appeal, etc.

The fix was in. Moreover, the fix has afforded the opportunity for this scumbag Guede to prance freely out of prison in the not very distant future. It is utterly disgusting and revolting.


There is no evidence that Rudi emailed anybody.


I can send emails, but I don't know how to Skype.
Guede-o could Skype.

I betcha Guede-o had an email account.
You, nor I, probably just have not seen that evidence, Grinder...
Agree?
 
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Not at all clear that she was with two guys, in fact it was one locksmith and the six year old. She made the point that he was calm and accepted that he had been caught.

Being armed one would think he could have brandished the knife and made a run for it. A locksmith, isn't usually a burly guy like tow truck drivers.

Thanks for the video. Strange that woman that speaks English so well runs a nursery. I certainly had a different image of what the building looked like.


Cite please?
 
Yes, going to the lawyers was odd. I have no idea why he went to Milan. He might have thought it safer to sell stolen goods from Perugia there. I think he had a relative there. Surely not to break-in to the daycare facility.

He apparently knew people there. Which is probably how he planned to fence the stolen goods. He was arrested two days after the nursery break-in for drug possession in the company of a group of drug dealers.

November 21, 2007
Meanwhile, the Flying Squad reread the file of Rudy. Only five days before the discovery of the corpse of Meredith was caught in a nursery in Milan, with a knife in the kitchen of the school and took his white laptop. "I was at the station when a South American offered me a bed for 50 euro - had told the police in Milan - I did get here." Had denounced him and let him go and then stop it again two days later with a group of African drug dealers and a bit 'of drugs in his pocket.

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html
 
I have no idea how to do it so I can't help you there. I'm almost certain it's back in a previous thread somewhere, I'm just not sure what terms would bring it up for me, and I cannot recall with enough clarity just when it was to know which thread to search.



That's possible as well.



The cops said so. Just like they said they adhered to all the collection and evidence standards their own tapes cleared showed they did not, leading to a day of mirth during the appeal when C&V demonstrated this most effectively. You've seen that bra clasp video, probably a few times being as I've posted it a few times recently. That's not how they're supposed to do it, incidentally, from their own manuals.




I dunno actually, though I doubt it. With so many procedural errors one must pick and choose which ones will make the court laugh hardest! This may have lost out to something else with greater humor potential.



Me too!

I'm with whomever said the defense attorneys suck. If this kind of information was available to them and they didn't seize the opportunity to show the scene had been compromised, they should be the ones in jail (hyperbole cuz I'm pissed, not really)
 
I have no clue if they will win the appeal's trial. However, everyone here needs to know that if a knife is stuck in someone's neck, then there is either blood-DNA left on the knife, or the knife is cleaned completely.

Those who claim that THIS knife is the murder weapon need to explain to an FBI DNA expert why non-blood DNA is what remains? Until one can do that, they cannot claim that this is the murder weapon.

They also have to explain why there is no forensic evidence of Knox in that room, as even the convicting judge, Judge Massei, conceded. And, no, the knife does not count, because that is in contention.... the reasoning would be very circular.

The baffling thing to guilt-proponents is that there is NO forensic profile of Amanda Knox in the room, apart from the knife which was not in the room to begin with. People like John Douglas simply laugh at the suggestion.... that is not the way crime works, he says. It doesn't become true just because someone alleges it.

Do you have a cite for this conclusion?

Because I seem to recall that 10 picograms and maybe 0 picograms of a "material" that tested negative for blood and negative as a human substance is not able to be tested for DNA identification purposes unless and even this is doubtful... special precautions, equipment, handling, and even a whole separate building are used on this extremely LCN/LTN "sample".

The DNA expert is saying that if bleach was used it would have destroyed all DNA material. Since he set up the FBI labs it is also notable then that the FBI still (in 2013) refuses to use LCN/LTN traces as evidence against anyone.

The reasons are obvious. Severe risk of misreading contamination (this is what Stefanoni did), No acceptable standardized testing procedures, equipment or kits have been manufactured and certified that can produce repeatable and reliable results.

One must accept the flawed non standard one off test result produced by Stefanoni who in her own notes writes "Too Low" at least 5 times...and that she continues with this one sample but not other Too Low samples makes the result highly suspect...in fact scientifically, it is invalid simply because it is non-repeatable. The fact that no one can look at the EDF'S to ascertain if controls were run on this sample moves it far beyond a reasonable result and into an area that has to be corruption based. Or else you must believe in fairies...who wash with bleach but leave a tiny amount of DNA and also huge starch particles.

This of course is absurd....just as is luminol footprints from blood but diluted to the perfect level so as to not be revealed by TMB. I was a Histo Technologist at AFIP in Washington DC for 4 years...we worked with blood and tissue and stains everyday...in fact AFIP wrote the book on tissue processing and staining...the diluted blood thing is a diversion like so many other irregularities in this case...missing interrogation tapes, burned up hard drives, misdiagnosed HIV tests, confessions in a language not spoken by the defendant, extreme efforts to control the media in every form, sub-cases against lawyers, families, newspapers, bloggers, book authors...and the thing is no one seems to be calling bullcraps on all this unusual activity.

Its as if stupid can find 3 people to swear to it and then a judge stamps it good and all retreat for the long lunch. This case needs experts to call BS when they see it. As in the DNA evidence against AK and RS. As in illegal interrogations, as in false confessions, as in striking a suspect...to help them remember of course...stupid transparent liars...and no one calls BS. No wonder Italians run when they see the police. No wonder the honest judges are quitting in disgust. The corrupt ones have full control and nothing in place to impede them in the least. No checks, no balances.

That's why Italy has the highest number of violations by it courts in the chart Kaosium linked the other day.
 
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Whilst trying to find something else, I came across an oldie but goodie that I'd been thinking of recently but didn't mention as I didn't know if I could dig it up and it's just for entertainment purposes only.

This is from an Italian blog on the Monster of Florence case, which unfortunately now requires a log-in, though it didn't when it was originally posted. Guess who 'randomly stumbled' across that Italian Blog? Mignini himself, and he made an entirely serious post that the wonders of Google translate turned into comedy gold. Here's what he posted in Italian:

Giuliano Mignini Italian Monster of Florence Blog May 2011 said:
Ho casualmente imbattuto sul vostro sito e ho letto l'articolo su di me e mi sento in dovere di fare alcune precisazioni:
Vi è una parte della sentenza di cui nessuno ha parlato ed è quella con la quale io e il Dr. Giuttari siamo stati assolti dalle imputazioni relative alle indagini cosiddette “parallele” perché i fatti non sussistono, con la formula più piena che si possa immaginare. E questa sentenza assolutoria è definitiva perché né la Procura di Firenze né la Procura Generale di Firenze l'hanno appellata E' rimasta una condanna per abusi minori avverso la quale abbiamo interposto appello che si celebrerà il prossimo 22 novembre.

Nell'appello ho eccepito l'incompetenza funzionale della sede giudiziaria fiorentina a trattare il caso perché in esso sono coinvolti due magistrati della Procura di Firenze tra cui l'ex capo della stessa. Quanto al merito, mi si contesta di avere svolto intercettazioni telefoniche, tutte autorizzate, ma che, secondo il Tribunale (che non conosce minimamente l'indagine sul caso Narducci) non erano pertinenti a tale indagine e invece, per me, lo erano. Siamo accusati di avere condizionato giornalisti e funzionari di Polizia con intercettazioni e altri atti di indagine…....segreti. Come si fa condizionare qualcuno con atti di cui il “condizionando” ignora l'esistenza me lo dovranno spiegare. Questo è quello che ritengo di puntualizzare. Non aggiungo altro in questa sede.

Grazie.
Giuliano Mignini

Now here's how that came out through google translate, I will highlight the...interesting...part.

Giuliano Mignini Monster of Florence Blog May 2011 said:
I randomly stumbled upon your site and I read the article on me and I feel compelled to make a few clarifications:
There is a part of the judgment that no one has spoken and is the one with which I and Dr. Giuttari we were acquitted of the charges relating to investigations so-called "parallel" because the facts do not exist, with the formula fuller than you can imagine . And this acquittal is final because neither the prosecutor nor the Attorney General of Florence in Florence have appealed It 'been a conviction for child abuse against which we have appealed to be held on November 22.

The appeal I objected to the jurisdiction of the functional Florentine court to hear the case because it involved two prosecutors in Florence including the former head of the same. As to the substance, it is alleged to have played wiretaps, all authorized, but that, according to the Court (who does not know any way the investigation of the case Narducci) were not relevant to this investigation and instead, for me, they were. We are accused of having influenced journalists and police officials with wiretaps and other investigative measures ....... secrets. How do you influence someone with the acts listed in the "conditioning" ignores the existence will have to explain it to me. This is what I believe to point out. Say no more here.

Thank you.
Giuliano Mignini

I would like nothing better than to report the Monster of Perugia was facing child abuse charges, but it's simply an artifact of google translate. It's in reference to his conviction of a minor offense (in his version of the Monster of Florence case which had nothing to do with the real MoF) which google translate rendered as 'child abuse.'

What I did find interesting was the fact the real Mignini does indeed 'randomly stumble' upon blogs, as this was quite likely the real Mignini given where it was posted and the content, which in Italian is a reasoned defense (and was accepted as such at the real Italian blog) of him. Plus of course it turned out to be accurate a year or so later when his conviction and (suspended) prison sentence was quashed, to be retried in Turin...hopefully.

However the humor value in thinking the real Mignini had admitted to being a convicted kiddie-fiddler is worth it! :p
 
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Thanks for that info. Once again, this is the first time I've heard this and I've been following this case for a couple of years. That changes how I perceive the video now as there seems to be a reasonable explanation as to why they are making a production out of the bra clasp and like you said, we don't know if they did this with other things. This case...smh.....I feel like I've got one or both arms tied behind my back while trying to determine what the actual facts are. Given the evidence was born across the ocean in another language & by the time its imported to my shores it seems to become murky, deficient, nonexistent and/or completely incorrect....ugh!

Well no actually we do know exactly how they handled all the evidence...one can review for example the collection of the blood covered outer jacket worn by Meredith as she was being killed. First it is odd that this was not taken in the first go round but on Dec 18th we watch it first picked up...then tossed into or on the clothes hamper and ignored and then later someone returns and actually turns the sleeves right side out since they were inside out (evidence of how that item was removed as in over the head and pulled off the arms) absolutely stunning and wrong. No production number for the van people...same lack of interest in the bloody shoes and socks...the purse was rotated as if a model on a cat walk was displaying it. But

The most interesting thing that I learned today was that RS claimed Napolini was in the room with the CSI team...(I haven't read all his book yet) on the 18th. WTH was she doing there? I can think of no reason for her presence just like there was no reason for her in court every day during the first trial. Her presence is highly suspect especially in light of her being caught last year for evidence tampering in another case.

She had access to everything necessary. I guarantee RS DNA is/was on his toothbrush. And in his sink and on his cigarette butts and it is correct that she almost failed to do the job. Same with the knife.

Those who collected it were also at the cottage the same day...the chain of custody was broken by some officer who opened the envelope and placed it in a box. He claims to have put on new gloves...but what else may have been on his desk prior to doing that? MK jeans? Who knows...it wasn't a laboratory and I am quite certain he did not swab down the desk top before and after placing items on it.

This is not hard to figure out...its just that the Italians make so much noise...nonsense noise designed to cover up the absurdity of the lack of evidence...kinda of like the lawyer faced with a tough case and little evidence to help his client...they say the more desk pounding the more likely the guy is guilty...only now it is the prosecutors pounding the desks...because they have nothing...never did in fact.
 
It says that following the court orders it was acquired by both the court and the scientific police, so it's possible that the police went to take it, but given that it is the same court that appointed C&V i wouldn't call it a raid nor a thug move.

Why would C and V call Hellmann about the two loads of thugs then? And why would Hellmann explain to not give the DVD since a copy was already in the case file inside the Perugia Court House?
 
Here are the two images side by side

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img259/179/cs2n.jpg[/qimg]

Page 273 & 274 of the Massei Report:

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

I can't conclude the seal was broken from these photos without more information. What's odd is there is more tape on the sign on the 18th than on the 14th which I guess could mean many things but I'll just mention two:

1. The seal was broken nefariously and that person then used an abundant amount of a different type of tape to reseal the door,

or

2. The second photo was taken after forensics had completed their work inside on the 18th and represents what the door looked like after they had resealed the door and were ready to leave.

I find #2 to be more likely and logical

What does everyone else think?

***DanO, I couldn't add the Massei part to the Wiki because I can't seem to get my email confirmed for some reason***


Does the fact that the "sealed" door on Nov 14th is wide open bother you at all?

The CSI returned on Dec 18th not Nov 18th.
 
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