Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

can you post a source that discussing this plz? Once again, I am surprised to find something I haven't heard of b4

The evidence of this is in three parts. The first part is one of the photos Barbie took when she first rolled into town on November 14, 2007 after her Mazaratti test drive. The second part is the first two crime scene photos from the December 18 visit showing that the seal has been retaped. The third part is the testimony of the police stating that the seal was intact when the returned for the December visit.

A link to the source for the first photo can be found on the wiki page for "Cottage Door". The second photo is in the 300MB archives that Charlie linked to earlier. The third part I believe can be found in Massie (if you find a reference for this third part, it needs to be added to the wiki).

 

[Kaosium]

You asked me a question Kaosium and I should answer it.While I by instinct agree with Charlie that the clasp evidence was planted by the police I quote directly from page 183 of Raffaele's book

"I was outraged by the way the clasp had been recovered a month and a half after the murder,and outraged too that Monica Napoeloni was in the room when the Polizia Sciintifica made their discovery.She had no place being there; the only logical explanation,I felt,was that she knew about the clasp in advance and was directing traffic to make sure it was found.

Monica had made the decision to arrest Amanda and Raffaele on the night of the interrogation against the advice of another police officer,by then she knew the mistake she had made,and it was either plant evidence or let them go,and she made the decision to plant evidence,I doubt it if she trusted anybody to carry out this task for her.

Ah, I'd forgotten about that part in the book. I didn't doubt the possibility, I just wanted to know the reason why you suspected her specifically. She got herself in a little trouble recently, her and Zugarini doing something....dammit I can't recall, something about a child custody case and she abused her office somehow. What was that again?

At any rate it's damned curious that it was even there considering they'd taped it the first day, and it was a strange show they put on 'finding' it, and as you note odd that Napoleoni of the Polizia di Stato was there when they did....

 

[naisel]

The Italian paper doesn't backup the police raid in Rome. It doesn't cover that aspect at all.

It says that following the court orders it was acquired by both the court and the scientific police, so it's possible that the police went to take it, but given that it is the same court that appointed C&V i wouldn't call it a raid nor a thug move.

 

[yimyammer]

The evidence of this is in three parts. The first part is one of the photos Barbie took when she first rolled into town on November 14, 2007 after her Mazaratti test drive. The second part is the first two crime scene photos from the December 18 visit showing that the seal has been retaped. The third part is the testimony of the police stating that the seal was intact when the returned for the December visit.

A link to the source for the first photo can be found on the wiki page for "Cottage Door". The second photo is in the 300MB archives that Charlie linked to earlier. The third part I believe can be found in Massie (if you find a reference for this third part, it needs to be added to the wiki).

thx for the reply. If I find the spot in Massei, I'll add it to the Wiki and post it here

Just stumbled across an old video interview of Ann Coulter that ought to get everyone wound up-----> http://youtu.be/zLld_dMa4EI It's interesting now that I know more about the case to hear her make statements that according to my current understanding are not correct. She got the first point correct and then not so much

 

[Sonia]

There is something odd about the Maria Del Prato video. At least on my screen I could read anything on the street and the door information looks blurred. It's odd she seemingly made only this one short video and it is semi-professionally done.

How strange she had a locksmith with her on the day someone had broken in.

In Nina Burleigh's book, she reports that the week after the Tramontano burglary, the nursery school for English children in Milan run by Del Prato was burgled for the first time. Somebody cooked up a huge meal of pasta and spinach, leaving a big mess, and also stole 2000 Euro from the cash box. The police came and took a report, but nobody was arrested.

The following weekend was the 2nd story burglary of the lawyer's office in Perugia.

10 days after that, Rudy's neighbor's house was broken into and burned in Perugia.

4 days after that, the nursery school owner in Milan was leading two repairmen into the closed school where she discovered Guede in her office. He had the lawyer's laptop in his backpack and a big knife stolen from the nursery kitchen, among other incriminating things.

I don't think Guede was ever charged with the first burglary of the Milan nursery school. After the first weekend burglary, the owner didn't enter the nursery school until Monday morning, where she found the signs of someone eating there and making himself at home (Guede's MO). She walked into the second burglary in progress because she entered over the weekend, and she said Guede seemed surprised to be interrupted.

I could be wrong, but I think that video is a clip from a longer documentary about the Knox case. I can't remember which one because it's been a while since I saw any.

 

[Dan O.]

Once again the video was live streamed to the defense. They didn't allow them inside but for obvious reasons the defense wanted to observe. I haven't seen the whole video but wouldn't be surprised if they showed other things to the camera as well. if the clasp is the only thing so demonstrated that would be much more incriminating for the ILE.

When they collected the bra they picked it up with tongs and dropped it into the evidence bag without handling it. They did show it to the camera and even pointed to the end where the clasp was missing but they didn't touch it or pass it around.

The only similar display that I recall is the discovery of the bleach reciept in Raffaele's appartment on November 16th. But this was only documentary evidence and not to be subjected to trace forensic analysis.

 

[Kaosium]

The nature of the DNA on the bra-clasp shows that they almost DIDN'T pull it off. I don't pretend to understand the technicalities of it - the words I use are that it was only a single Y-allele which could have been Raff's, but also 100s of other people (correct me if I am wrong)....

... the real risk was videotaping the "discovery" and then playing that videotape as if anyone was going to fall for it.

When one looks at the condition of the upper floor of the cottage on Dec 18, complete with the condition of the gloves worn by the SP.... it could have been dumb-luck that they found anything resembling Raffaele at all, but not 100% successful dumb luck either because all they found was something inconclusive.

Like the non-blood Meredith DNA on the knife, in a non-existent groove on the blade. People promoting guilt would want to put MEREDITH in big letters on that one, hoping folks will ignore non-blood DNA as well as ignore the fact there isn't a groove there for it to get stuck into after the hypothesized bleach cleaning they made such a big deal about.

As Theodore Simon's DNA expert says, it's as simple as this: no actual blood-DNA on the blade means it's not the murder weapon. Period.

This is what Theodore Simon means when he says, that there simply is no evidence at all pointing to Raffaele and/or Amanda. On what basis is this prosecuted then?

The 'Mixed Blood/Mixed Traces' was fraud.

The 'Bloody Footprints' were fraud.

Pretending Raffaele's Y-Haplotype was alone on the bra clasp was fraud.

Why would it be surprising if a knife that didn't match the wounds and tested negative for blood was an especially stupid fraud?

'There's truth, there's justice and then there's the Perugian Way.'

 

[Chris_Halkides]

time stamps

Chris,

I while back I posted some information about Luminol and blood.

The information was that Luminol could find blood residue that was years old and implied that normal cleaning would not remove it. If the floors were cleaned using a small amount or weak cleaner the "footprints" found could have been from time well before the renters at the time had moved in.

Because of the diluted nature of the stains, if they were in fact blood (so low TMB wouldn't react), would mean to me that someone could have had their feet in diluted blood water in the shower (nose bleed, period, cut etc.) and left the prints.

Why hasn't the lack of time stamp of those footprints been more of an issue in your mind?

Grinder, It is a big issue in my mind. There are several problems with the luminol prints, and it may be helpful to list them all in one place. They cannot be attributed to anyone (the luminol was overapplied, and there are not enough reference footprints), they don't form a trail, they are all of a single chirality (right feet IIRC), and they cannot be dated. In addition, the information I recently posted on confirmatory blood testing sensitivity suggests that confirmatory blood testing would have been sensitive enough to pick up any blood. Finally, some or all of the luminol prints in the hall lack Meredith's DNA (I would not call this decisive, but it is not helpful to the prosecution's assertion that the prints are made in her blood). The lack of time stamps is what distinguishes the weak evidence against Knox or Sollecito, with the presence of time-stamps associated with two of the strongest pieces of evidence against Guede (the hand print and the shoe prints) IMO.
ETA
The prints could have been made either before or after the murder.

 

[Kaosium]

I played the lets create a guilty time line in this thread. I recall we didnt have any more luck than... well anybody. PGP, prosecutors and especially Massei who has to certainly go down in some sort of legal history as the dumbest judge on earth.

No one can make a time line that fits facts and shows involvement of the innocent accused. Even the great Yummi/Mach refused to step up to the plate and take a swing. It was always later I will...now is not the time...Im thinking after 5 years he is fibbing. He has no intention of laying out his case...because he understands we could rip it to shreds with the facts.

Everybody realizes Napolini was caught in a plot to make false evidence against her ex-husband right? I wonder how that turned out for her and her co-conspirators? I seem to recall some of her pals she used in the RS , AK case as being involved in her corruption. The fat woman who kicked out the basement window was one...I think there were others.

My suspicion for the reason no one has been able to come up with a guilt scenario employing evidence (outside the bunnyhole) is the moment they post it the discussion becomes about the very real fact that 'evidence' is dubious or false and that undermines their very theory. This didn't bother Mignini so I suppose they think they ought to be able to get away with it too! As noted, that works on some boards, it doesn't so much in the evidence-based communities.

Regarding Napoleoni, I only saw something in passing, googling for her name brings up mostly her involvement in this case. Does anyone have a link, or better yet links, to what happened in that instance you and I have mentioned? Getting caught planting 'evidence' to solve a minor problem of hers might imply she'd be inclined as she was probably more responsible for those first arrests of Patrick, Raffaele and Amanda than anyone else.

 

[Kaosium]

How could she pull this off with any level of certainty?

Seems like having access to Raf's apartment wouldn't guarantee her being able to find DNA. Did she have access to him in jail? Seems a rather difficult thing to pull off given its not visible to the naked eye and if she couldn't somehow get Raf to spit in something or swab his mouth, I am having trouble seeing how she could pull this off with a expectation of success commensurate with the risk.

Seems if we're going to say its impossible for AK/Raf to clean up their DNA at a crime scene, then it would also seem rather difficult for Monica to locate usable DNA to plant on the bra clasp and I gravitate toward arguments that are consistent to whatever circumstances they are applied so this one gives me pause.

Maybe she used Amanda's lamp (bad joke)?

I don't know, was Raffaele's apartment still considered part of the 'crime scene?' I know Patrick's bar still was at that juncture and it had nothing to do with the murder, it would hardly be surprising if Raffaele's apartment was still sealed off.

Oh, if I were her I'd just rub it all over Raffaele's sink.

 

[anglolawyer]

My suspicion for the reason no one has been able to come up with a guilt scenario employing evidence (outside the bunnyhole) is the moment they post it the discussion becomes about the very real fact that 'evidence' is dubious or false and that undermines their very theory. This didn't bother Mignini so I suppose they think they ought to be able to get away with it too! As noted, that works on some boards, it doesn't so much in the evidence-based communities.

Regarding Napoleoni, I only saw something in passing, googling for her name brings up mostly her involvement in this case. Does anyone have a link, or better yet links, to what happened in that instance you and I have mentioned? Getting caught planting 'evidence' to solve a minor problem of hers might imply she'd be inclined as she was probably more responsible for those first arrests of Patrick, Raffaele and Amanda than anyone else.

I'm surprised you haven't read Amanda's book, Kaosium. Lots of interesting points in there. Monica's hostility towards Amanda is clear from the beginning. It's very striking and one of the sillier things that makes me want to hit someone. Another is the insistence of the prison guards in grabbing hold of Amanda when bringing her in and out of court, like you expect to see in some cheap movie (and which also irritated her).

 

[yimyammer]

There were two guys with the school lady. Maybe if she's been alone Rudy wouldn't have been so polite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfA7rrmfedE

By "two guys", do you mean the locksmith and the ladies 6 year old son? If not, how ru getting two guys from this video?

 

[anglolawyer]

By "two guys", do you mean the locksmith and the ladies 6 year old son? If not, how ru getting two guys from this video?

I am relying on hearsay from the guy who gave me the link. Like I said, I didn't see the video myself before posting it, despite trying.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm surprised you haven't read Amanda's book, Kaosium. Lots of interesting points in there. Monica's hostility towards Amanda is clear from the beginning. It's very striking and one of the sillier things that makes me want to hit someone. Another is the insistence of the prison guards in grabbing hold of Amanda when bringing her in and out of court, like you expect to see in some cheap movie (and which also irritated her).

I'll most certainly read her book, but it will always be there, the sooner I read it the sooner it will be over!

It does not surprise me that she noticed antagonism from Napoleoni, that's something that was mentioned in Candace Dempsey's "Murder in Italy" and I also recall reading Follain, who was pictured with Napoleoni on more than one occassion and is likely a main source for 'background' in his book, also included that information.

Regarding your last point, I recall reading that the Bunnies were most displeased Amanda was not shackled in court as a dangerous murderess ought to have been like Rudy was for (at least some of) his appearances.

 

[Bill Williams]

It does not surprise me that she noticed antagonism from Napoleoni, that's something that was mentioned in Candace Dempsey's "Murder in Italy" and I also recall reading Follain, who was pictured with Napoleoni on more than one occassion and is likely a main source for 'background' in his book, also included that information.

This is something all the authors agree on.... Napoleoni was antogonistic right from the early afternoon of Nov 2. The way Raffaele put it was that Napoleoni glared at him when he tried to point out the pooh in the toilet.

 

[anglolawyer]

This is something all the authors agree on.... Napoleoni was antogonistic right from the early afternoon of Nov 2. The way Raffaele put it was that Napoleoni glared at him when he tried to point out the pooh in the toilet.

Weird, innit? Then there was the excessive disapproval of 'inappropriate' behaviour at the questura and then there was stinging criticism when she complained of being tired in the car journey to the house. What's that about?

 

[yimyammer]

The evidence of this is in three parts. The first part is one of the photos Barbie took when she first rolled into town on November 14, 2007 after her Mazaratti test drive. The second part is the first two crime scene photos from the December 18 visit showing that the seal has been retaped. The third part is the testimony of the police stating that the seal was intact when the returned for the December visit.

A link to the source for the first photo can be found on the wiki page for "Cottage Door". The second photo is in the 300MB archives that Charlie linked to earlier. The third part I believe can be found in Massie (if you find a reference for this third part, it needs to be added to the wiki).

Here are the two images side by side



Page 273 & 274 of the Massei Report:

While the Scientific Police were in the house, it was under surveillance, and after that the seals were placed. After November 7th, the last day of the search by the personnel of the Questura of Perugia, the next access to the house on via della Pergola was the entry on December 18, 2007, which has already been discussed, [294] and no seals were broken between November 7 and December 18, 2007. So there was no illicit access to the house during this period.

The Court thus holds that the circumstances and operative methods described above lead to the conclusion that no contamination of the small piece of bra with the hooks occurred. Such contamination, as will be shown immediately, cannot be connected with any illicit access since, before the piece of bra and other findings were removed (on December 18th as already stated), the protective system in place and the seals placed on the house show no signs of having undergone any forcing which would make it possible to state that persons not under [police] control, moving around without due care and attention, could have contaminated any findings.

I can't conclude the seal was broken from these photos without more information. What's odd is there is more tape on the sign on the 18th than on the 14th which I guess could mean many things but I'll just mention two:

1. The seal was broken nefariously and that person then used an abundant amount of a different type of tape to reseal the door,

or

2. The second photo was taken after forensics had completed their work inside on the 18th and represents what the door looked like after they had resealed the door and were ready to leave.

I find #2 to be more likely and logical

What does everyone else think?

***DanO, I couldn't add the Massei part to the Wiki because I can't seem to get my email confirmed for some reason***

 

[GWCarver]

This is something all the authors agree on.... Napoleoni was antogonistic right from the early afternoon of Nov 2. The way Raffaele put it was that Napoleoni glared at him when he tried to point out the pooh in the toilet.

Maybe she thought he was just messing with her. I know I have solved problems by analyzing crash dumps, but if someone were to point out a real dump for me to look at I probably would give him a strange look.

However, little did she know that everything she needed to identify the killer was right in the toilet bowl where Raffaele was pointing. To sum it up, Raffaele thought is was important, but Napoleoni did not. He was the better detective.

 

[Supernaut]

This is something all the authors agree on.... Napoleoni was antogonistic right from the early afternoon of Nov 2. The way Raffaele put it was that Napoleoni glared at him when he tried to point out the pooh in the toilet.

Take a look at her - a Monica Bellucci wannabe, trying SO hard to be 'glamorous', with her see-through tops, expensive hair, kohl eye-liner etc' - and she was confronted with this naturally beautiful 20 year-old who doesn't have to TRY at all.

Not hard to see why Napoleoni was pissed-off.

 

[Bill Williams]

I was wrong about Raffaele finding Napoleoni immediately antagonistic, esp. about the pooh. He saves his best description of Napoleoni for when she accuses him at his own late Nov 5 interrogation of defending a cow and a whore. He found THAT a little antagonistic.

Apologies about the pooh, though. Follain represents it as a quandry perplexing Napoleoni, Raffaele had a story about how Amanda had seen, then not seen, the pooh.... these two young people kept bugging her about these trivialities, and she concluded that they were hiding something.

Sheesh. Classic Follain.