Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[DrTesla]

Let's see here, you have Stefanoni's boss who'd be in a world of trouble if his lab was stuffing up DNA work, you have Mignini's buddy from the MoF case who thinks high RFU values mean blood and admitted after the humiliation of Stefanoni that perhaps Italian forensics were behind the times, and two hired by adversaries whose best interest was in backing the prosecution and never saw the actual data required to evaluate the work they just took everything Stefanoni said at face value.

Then there's all the ones who were completely free of any influences outside the integrity of their field who stringently protested, some of whom later came to realize that (and many other things) meant Amanda and Raffaele were innocent.

Punctuated by the report of Conti and Vecchiotti.

man you've really studies up on everybody associated with this case. one wouldn't be surprised if these people had a horse head show up in their bed one night.

C and V didn't dispute raffe's Y DNA being on the bra clasp, which would certainly point to him. they said contamination was possible but never laid out a specific and believable scenario in which that could have occurred so it's meaningless conjecture that is useless in a criminal trial. they also only contested 4 or 5 of the loci on the auto. DNA which the prosecution could concede and still the DNA profile would point to Raffe. the Hellman jury said that that this DNA could have been anybody but that isn't even what C and V argued as I understand it, and it's pretty clear this judge and jury just didn't understand what their so called experts said.

 

[DrTesla]

No, that's not it either. Where are you getting this stuff from, are you reading the cartwheel's thread or way back in the TJMK/PMF archives? Or are you getting this somewhere else?

If Amanda's DNA was actually on Meredith's bra, doncha think you'd have heard about it before this? Please!

Give me a link for this one and I'll decipher it for you, I forget what that was.

no I have seen Amanda profile was on there but it wasn't as strong a match so they never talked about it. something like 9 loci or something.

it really doesn't matter, I look forward to the Supreme's court statement about their decision to overrule the Hellman court b/c I think it's based on how they handled the whole DNA thing. I was reading something that was written at the time when Hellman appointed C and V, and it appears the defense thought it was a lock they would win acquittal b/c Hellmann selected C and V. WHy would they be so sure of the outcome if C and V were truly independent? maybe just bravado but maybe the judge knew these two had an opinion on Knox being innocent before making his decisions? Hmmmmmmmmm.

 

[DrTesla]

this guy who goes by The Machine at true justice wrote this as well:

Re-examination of the bra clasp

According to the authors of “Darkness Descending” Dr. Stefanoni found highly suggestive evidence of Amanda Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. Raffaele Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Torre, also claimed that he had found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra strap.

It seems that another forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali ALSO found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. The reporter Barbie Nadeau wrote the following:


Vincenzo Pascali, the chief forensic consultant who was set to give expert testimony about the possible contamination of the bra clasp, walked off the case last month, reportedly leaving a €50,000 bill. Back in September, Pascali, who declined to comment for this story, hinted that the clasp also contained Knox’s DNA.

 

[DrTesla]

one major reason why I think the Hellman guy was biased for Knox is he was talking about how unfair Knox had been treated in the media, etc. that doesn't seem appropriate for a judge to be saying, and how she was treated in the media, even if unfair, doesn't mean she's innocent, and it's rather disturbing this guy presided over the trial and got to vote on it, and in my opinion, lead the lay jurors to his own conclusion, b/c it's surprising that not one juror voted to convict the accused in the appeals trial after a 8-0 jury in the first trial. that's a real polarized discrepancy that just strikes me as odd and unlikely to happen if the same evidence is looked at in both trials.

 

[Kaosium]

man you've really studies up on everybody associated with this case. one wouldn't be surprised if these people had a horse head show up in their bed one night.

Nah, I'm casting for the movie.

C and V didn't dispute raffe's Y DNA being on the bra clasp, which would certainly point to him. they said contamination was possible but never laid out a specific and believable scenario in which that could have occurred so it's meaningless conjecture that is useless in a criminal trial.

You have it backwards. All the bunnies did! It actually works so that if contamination cannot be ruled out, then the DNA work amounts to 'meaningless conjecture.'

Oh, and there's a vast multitude of scenarios anyway, starting with the videoing of it on the floor ~November 2nd, it being left there (or...) for six weeks, the eventual collection we know of for sure which showed them fondling it freely and passing it around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert, and then it being taken back and tested in a lab not even certified for regular DNA work let alone LCN/LT and which made the preposterous claim it had never had a case of contamination which suggests they cannot be abiding by any standards known to man and science which may well be why Stefanoni will not let anyone see those EDFs...

they also only contested 4 or 5 of the loci on the auto. DNA which the prosecution could concede and still the DNA profile would point to Raffe. the Hellman jury said that that this DNA could have been anybody but that isn't even what C and V argued as I understand it, and it's pretty clear this judge and jury just didn't understand what their so called experts said.

No, you don't. The 'contesting' means that Stefanoni willfully mis-attributed alleles in violation of scientific standards, probably due a 'suspect centered' profiling. That is just yet another indication of her lying in court incidentally, it doesn't mean what she produced was 'close enough for government work.'

What you're missing is the bra clasp being the only thing found at the scene that was in any way attributable to either Raffaele and Amanda makes it anomalous, not solid evidence to begin with anyway. If they were in that room hacking and slashing, raping and plundering, where's all the rest like there was for Guede? It's not like they didn't go down to the picogram in that room--they did! Where's all the rest?

Also it was only 'found' on a return trip (which was curious being as they'd videoed it the day or so of discovery!) that also included the luminol hits which would be fraudulently presented as blood when the prosecution hid the TMB negatives.

 

[Kaosium]

no I have seen Amanda profile was on there but it wasn't as strong a match so they never talked about it. something like 9 loci or something.

That isn't a match! If I recall correctly he may have been making the point that amongst other people the autosomic profile was so dreadful it could have matched any number of people, like C&V noted one in four people in the courtroom.

it really doesn't matter, I look forward to the Supreme's court statement about their decision to overrule the Hellman court b/c I think it's based on how they handled the whole DNA thing. I was reading something that was written at the time when Hellman appointed C and V, and it appears the defense thought it was a lock they would win acquittal b/c Hellmann selected C and V. WHy would they be so sure of the outcome if C and V were truly independent? maybe just bravado but maybe the judge knew these two had an opinion on Knox being innocent before making his decisions? Hmmmmmmmmm.

I don't recall seeing that (and I was paying close attention--maybe you've noticed!) that's because they knew if they got truly independent scientists the work of Stefanoni would be demolished in court, however if they just asked her boss again if his lab did good work like they had before then it was going to go badly.

The outcome was 'certain' with an unbiased review because it was a matter of obvious science. Stefanoni claimed cold fusion, but refused to show her work and every indication was she'd lied and cheated.

 

[Kaosium]

this guy who goes by The Machine at true justice wrote this as well:

Re-examination of the bra clasp

According to the authors of “Darkness Descending” Dr. Stefanoni found highly suggestive evidence of Amanda Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. Raffaele Sollecito’s forensic expert, Professor Torre, also claimed that he had found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra strap.

It seems that another forensic expert Vincenzo Pascali ALSO found Knox’s DNA on Meredith’s bra. The reporter Barbie Nadeau wrote the following:


Vincenzo Pascali, the chief forensic consultant who was set to give expert testimony about the possible contamination of the bra clasp, walked off the case last month, reportedly leaving a €50,000 bill. Back in September, Pascali, who declined to comment for this story, hinted that the clasp also contained Knox’s DNA.

LOL! The Machine=Harry Rag. When did he write that? That sounds like one of those police lies/bunny burgers that went around years ago. You won't find anything about it in Massei, I assure you!

Incidentally, I don't think you realize that adding yet another person to that bra clasp just makes it more dubious, not less. Also, Amanda lived with Meredith and they laundered together amongst other possible transfers, it is meaningless as evidence in the crime even if it was real.

You should really start following Halides1's links, he had one closely related to this subject just a day or two ago.

 

[anglolawyer]

They go back to the very beginning! If you're really interested, there was a well linked discussion when I got into this with Travis Bickle Lofter on the Wired New York site.

Thanks. I looked at that link enough to get the picture. Early reports suggested the cops found a black man's hair but this petered out in the actual trial. Was it an ill-informed source, bad journalism (Nadeau and Frank) or something the cops misconstrued and drew a veil over? Hmm.

 

[anglolawyer]

It was in the London Times, anglo. I think it was around November 3rd. It is mentioned in Massei, where they claim the hairs turned out to be fibers.

ETA: Finally found a post about it, with a link to the article: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7302771&postcount=12700

Behind a paywall unfortunately. One can think of reasons why the cops would go all quiet about looking for a black guy having screwed up so spectacularly but actual evidence of suppression doesn't seem to be out there unfortunately.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

It's rather depressing that all this nonsense about insufficient panic or too much panic or lamps and whatever is still going on.

If Amanda and Raffaele were at home when Meredith died, they didn't do it. There is absolutely no getting around that.

Meredith almost certainly died around 21:05, by 21:30 maybe at the very latest. Amanda and Raffaele were watching cartoons until 21:49 at the earliest, although it's very likely it can be proven they were home all night.

That's all you need to know. If you know that, you know they didn't do it.

 

[Briars]

There is a complete summary of Amanda's interpreter Donino testimony on PMF.org. She arrived during the questioning at 12:30. Her testimony is straight forward and without hesitation. No mistreatment of Amanda occurred. At one point someone even held her hand! Amanda's tales will be her undoing. Noted that she had added a story in her memoir of a cellmate ripping out diary pages in anger. I almost bought it as an excuse for her missing October pages until someone on .net pointed out it would be a different diary. Tales of sent emails, missing pages and blaming others for confessions won't help the defendants.

 

[JREF2010]

There is a complete summary of Amanda's interpreter Donino testimony on PMF.org. She arrived during the questioning at 12:30. Her testimony is straight forward and without hesitation. No mistreatment of Amanda occurred. At one point someone even held her hand! Amanda's tales will be her undoing. Noted that she had added a story in her memoir of a cellmate ripping out diary pages in anger. I almost bought it as an excuse for her missing October pages until someone on .net pointed out it would be a different diary. Tales of sent emails, missing pages and blaming others for confessions won't help the defendants.

So Edgardo Giobbi and Raffaele are lying about Amanda screaming during the interrogation? Or Doninio is saying the screaming was over by 12:30, they broke her down and now Migninni should com in?

Donino was part of the later evening, "little tea party" with hand holding? I'd never heard about the hand holding.

So explain again, why they brought 20+ police to the interrogation, in the middle of the night, didn't record the interrogation (even though they were recording immediately before and immediately after the interrogation), only to have a nice little comforting chat with Amanda?

Its a mystery this Interrogation "little hand holding, tea party" in the middle of the night...not recorded. ..and she just confesses and signs legal documents at 1 or 5 in the morning, written in a foreign language.

Or did I read this wrong, and the testimony said someone was holding Donnio's hand?

 

[Grinder]

[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=7859[/IMGL]I'll know more when I've had a chance to add the corridor to my Sketchup model. There does appear to be a missing footprint about where the pink bag is. It's hard to tell without the closeup. The bag probably moved when Amanda put the mop away since the door needs to be closed in order to access the mop cabinet behind. Was there too much pink there for the crack ILE professionals to see the nearby blood?


Something else I think I pointed out much earlier, in shoe print 2 there is a blood drip that is on top of the shoe print (ie: was dripped after the print was made). What I had wrong then was that the wet pant leg is the other one so would have already been further forward when the shoe making the print was lifted. This drip must have been made on a return trip thus confirming that the prints were not made on Rudy's final exit. That diluted blood is still dripping helps establish that the prints were made soon after the cleanup in the bathroom.

There were pictures of the ICSI scrubbing the floor at one point. Was it in the area that the "missing" Luminol prints would be?

 

[Grinder]

Let's see here, you have Stefanoni's boss who'd be in a world of trouble if his lab was stuffing up DNA work, you have Mignini's buddy from the MoF case who thinks high RFU values mean blood and admitted after the humiliation of Stefanoni that perhaps Italian forensics were behind the times, and two hired by adversaries whose best interest was in backing the prosecution and never saw the actual data required to evaluate the work they just took everything Stefanoni said at face value.

Then there's all the ones who were completely free of any influences outside the integrity of their field who stringently protested, some of whom later came to realize that (and many other things) meant Amanda and Raffaele were innocent.

Punctuated by the report of Conti and Vecchiotti.

I guess it depends on what independent is

 

[Grinder]

There is a complete summary of Amanda's interpreter Donino testimony on PMF.org. She arrived during the questioning at 12:30. Her testimony is straight forward and without hesitation. No mistreatment of Amanda occurred. At one point someone even held her hand! Amanda's tales will be her undoing. Noted that she had added a story in her memoir of a cellmate ripping out diary pages in anger. I almost bought it as an excuse for her missing October pages until someone on .net pointed out it would be a different diary. Tales of sent emails, missing pages and blaming others for confessions won't help the defendants.

Funny what I got out of it was the strange idea she had that she should form a relationship with the person that she was doing the translating of and for. She did mention her family and her broken leg and the trauma she she related to Amanda. She claimed to have translated the whole session but there were no translations of the questions Amanda was asked.

She doesn't answer questions straightforwardly at times and clearly is a partisan not a neutral translator.

 

[Kaosium]

So Edgardo Giobbi and Raffaele are lying about Amanda screaming during the interrogation? Or Doninio is saying the screaming was over by 12:30, they broke her down and now Migninni should com in?

Donino was part of the later evening, "little tea party" with hand holding? I'd never heard about the hand holding.

So explain again, why they brought 20+ police to the interrogation, in the middle of the night, didn't record the interrogation (even though they were recording immediately before and immediately after the interrogation), only to have a nice little comforting chat with Amanda?

Its a mystery this Interrogation "little hand holding, tea party" in the middle of the night...not recorded. ..and she just confesses and signs legal documents at 1 or 5 in the morning, written in a foreign language.

Or did I read this wrong, and the testimony said someone was holding Donnio's hand?

Heh. You know Mary H.'s favorite Italian police officer? The young male one from Rome who was impressed with Amanda's flexibility when she was doing yoga and wanted to see how wide she could spread her legs? Ivano is his name. He was not just holding hands he was caressing her too, Domino thought it was sweet! The humanity of the man! Pawing the poor distressed girl as she sat there crying, visibly shocked, frightened and dejected, comforting her, reassuring her--such a nice young man!

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks. I looked at that link enough to get the picture. Early reports suggested the cops found a black man's hair but this petered out in the actual trial. Was it an ill-informed source, bad journalism (Nadeau and Frank) or something the cops misconstrued and drew a veil over? Hmm.

It's a frustrating one, isn't it? I noticed one of the links to one of the papers was now dead.

As odds are Rudy left hairs at the scene it certainly wouldn't have been surprising had they found one and figured they ought to look for someone with hair like that. They did announce hairs of the murderer being tested, that's still there, and that would have been Rudy's if it was actually a hair and not a fiber.

Rose may have followed this up better, I recall reading her and Christiana discussing it at some later period. There was more in evidence that became available after I wrote those posts.

 

[Grinder]

So Edgardo Giobbi and Raffaele are lying about Amanda screaming during the interrogation? Or Doninio is saying the screaming was over by 12:30, they broke her down and now Migninni should com in?

Donino was part of the later evening, "little tea party" with hand holding? I'd never heard about the hand holding.

So explain again, why they brought 20+ police to the interrogation, in the middle of the night, didn't record the interrogation (even though they were recording immediately before and immediately after the interrogation), only to have a nice little comforting chat with Amanda?

Its a mystery this Interrogation "little hand holding, tea party" in the middle of the night...not recorded. ..and she just confesses and signs legal documents at 1 or 5 in the morning, written in a foreign language.

Or did I read this wrong, and the testimony said someone was holding Donnio's hand?

But Barbie wrote that the interrogation was tough and is to be expected because it was a murder investigation or some such drivel. Yes, it was a brutal interrogation with 12 detectives and Amanda screaming but really it was tea, cakes and hand-holding.

And still those of the PG persuasion can't explain how the police knew what was correct before Amanda made the Patrick statement.

They say that Patrick's lack of DNA in Filomena's proves that he didn't enter through the window but Amanda's lack of DNA in a room where a violent murder occurred and a hand and knees clean-up doesn't prove she didn't partake.

They contend that the kids turned off their phones (which doesn't make sense as leaving them on at Raf's would be better) and don't believe the Naruto watching. They must therefore think that the Naruto was put on but not watched, raising the question why they didn't put on the five hour version of Les Misérables or the 3 hour Reds. Clearly if the movie was to be an alibi they wouldn't pick a short. Btw, someone said something about Amanda's phone being turned off at Raf's and the police knew that from records. Not true, they found out because Amanda told them.

 

[Grinder]

Heh. You know Mary H.'s favorite Italian police officer? The young male one from Rome who was impressed with Amanda's flexibility when she was doing yoga and wanted to see how far she could spread her legs? Ivano is his name. He was not just holding hands he was caressing her too, Domino thought it was sweet! The humanity of the man! Pawing the poor distressed girl as she sat there crying, visibly shocked, frightened and dejected, comforting her reassuring her--such a nice young man!

But Raf kissing Amanda was a sure sign of a murderer does that mean that Ivano...

 

[Grinder]

It's a frustrating one, isn't it? I noticed one of the links to one of the papers was now dead.

As odds are Rudy left hairs at the scene it certainly wouldn't have been surprising had they found one and figured they ought to look for someone with hair like that. They did announce hairs of the murderer being tested, that's still there, and that would have been Rudy's if it was actually a hair and not a fiber.

Rose may have followed this up better, I recall reading her and Christiana discussing it at some later period. There was more in evidence that became available after I wrote those posts.

There was also the "blond" hair in Meredith's hand that was lost. The defense also asked for testing of Meredith's fingernails but the ILE probably decided that those findings wouldn't p[rove a date?