Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[yimyammer]

Mignini himself, orders that the liver temperature not be taken - so as to cloud forever the TOD.

can you provide a link to a source so I can read more about this?

How long will people defend the prosecution in this?

forever

 

[Bill Williams]

I can disagree with Massie on some of his conclusions b/c the testimony of the roommates and the victim's English friends clearly indicates some problems b/t the two girls. You don't agree with Massei's final conclusion that Knox is guilty so it's hiliarious for you to act like Massei is infalliable on the smaller stuff. it can't prove a motive but it does give credence to the idea that Knox resented Meredith for one reason or another, and I think the fact Knox gave an unsolicited statement about the vibrator in court kind of indirectly admits there was some tension over the vibrator and Knox's sex life which involved bringing strange men over to the cottage all the time. It's not hard to envision Knox at least getting the impression that Meredith judged her even if Meredith never said anything to her about it, and I do think Knox was jealous of Meredith as some of her own testimony seemed to indicate in which she talked about how she couldn't measure up to Meredith in certain ways.

Mignini never claimed this was about any kind of rite. His first theory was it was a sex game gone wrong due to the abuse of drugs which I think is a total crap theory cuz Meredith had a boyfriend and no indication that she would have parciipated in something like an orgy.

the final motive theory which is the only one that counts is that there were tensions b/t the two girls ove rKnox's lifestyle and maybe over money as well.

No one is saying that you cannot, yourself, think this. You have a right to think what you will.

None of the actual testimony you point to says what you say it says. There was tension over house-cleaning - and if that sort of thing led to murder then every campus world-wide would be battle zones.

I note you slip in the tension about money. This comes from Rudy, after he chaged his story from, "Amanda wasn't there." And the bit about "participating in the orgy" is also something Massei found as ludicrous. In fact, the "orgy" stuff first promoted by the prosecution for the first year, pretty much disappeared by the time trial came around.

Until now. You are alluding to it. It is the same old, same old.... throw stuff to see if it sticks. What you do not have is a comprehensive theory of this crime.

Otherwise, you are entitled to believe what you want. (If you call Massei's repudiation of "motive" and repudiation of "psychopathology" small stuff, then I know how to assess your own claims. You return to it as if it was never ruled on. Good for you.)

 

[DrTesla]

I have reviewed some a summary of Micheli's report and I think that he was bit closer to the truth than Massei across the board although Massei makes a reasoned case as well.

Does anybody know who the prosecuter was in the first appeals trial? Was it still Mignini or was it somebody else. I don't get the impression the prosecution even partipcated in that trial at times.

 

[yimyammer]

this crack head as you called him,when he was asked how he could identify Amanda,he said it was because he had a few drinks with her and her uncle in August in some bar,which was over a month before she arrived in Perugia,and also from the gap she has in her front teeth,the judge asked Amanda to smile and when she did she displayed a perfect set of teeth both top and bottom, At that point the judge had no option but to dismiss this hired liar for the prosecution.Mignini also used another of his perjurers Curatolo in this and two other cases and he was destroyed in Hellmann's court.Kokomania disappeared as soon as he finished giving evidence but Curatolo hung around and Mignini fearing the international press offering him money to tell them the truth about why he lied for the prosecution took the steps necessary to insure he never told the international press how evidence is obtained against the innocent in Perugia

The hits keep on coming, I've never heard of this one. What did Mignini do to silence Curatolo?

 

[DrTesla]

No one is saying that you cannot, yourself, think this. You have a right to think what you will.

None of the actual testimony you point to says what you say it says. There was tension over house-cleaning - and if that sort of thing led to murder then every campus world-wide would be battle zones.

I note you slip in the tension about money. This comes from Rudy, after he chaged his story from, "Amanda wasn't there." And the bit about "participating in the orgy" is also something Massei found as ludicrous. In fact, the "orgy" stuff first promoted by the prosecution for the first year, pretty much disappeared by the time trial came around.

Until now. You are alluding to it. It is the same old, same old.... throw stuff to see if it sticks. What you do not have is a comprehensive theory of this crime.

Otherwise, you are entitled to believe what you want. (If you call Massei's repudiation of "motive" and repudiation of "psychopathology" small stuff, then I know how to assess your own claims. You return to it as if it was never ruled on. Good for you.)

my point is you want to argue these two girls were best friends and/or there was absolutely no tension b/t them and therefore no possibility for a credible motive for Knox. Nobody is ever going to know the exact motive unless Knox tells us and doesn't look like that is going to happen. it isn't a requirement to prove a motive in a murder case, but to argue there is no possibility that tensions b/t the two girls played a role isn't something you can prove either. unless you can read minds.

prosecuters often change their theory about the motive as more facts come in, and if Mignini was this zealot as you claim, he wouldn't have changed his original motive theory. his final motive theory made much more sense.

 

[Bill Williams]

can you provide a link to a source so I can read more about this?

There's this quote from The Guardian.... others are available"

Forensic investigators from Rome were soon on the scene, taking over from local police and barring the town coroner from checking the body until around midnight, preventing an accurate time of death being determined.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/03/meredith-kercher-murder-burglary-perugia

 

[Bill Williams]

my point is you want to argue these two girls were best friends and/or there was absolutely no tension b/t them and therefore no possibility for a credible motive for Knox. Nobody is ever going to know the exact motive unless Knox tells us and doesn't look like that is going to happen. it isn't a requirement to prove a motive in a murder case, but to argue there is no possibility that tensions b/t the two girls played a role isn't something you can prove either. unless you can read minds.

prosecuters often change their theory about the motive as more facts come in, and if Mignini was this zealot as you claim, he wouldn't have changed his original motive theory. his final motive theory made much more sense.

Once again, you reverse the burden of proof. Fortunately this was something that the prosecution DID try to prove at trial, and they failed.

You now wish to say that this failure to prove the "bad relationship is the motive" theory was not tested and found wanting. Some of the British girls testified, Filomena testified and the triers of fact came away saying, "there is nothing here which would count towards a motive."

The prosecutors did not change their allegation of motive. They went to trial with it, after their "sex game gone wrong" motive failed, and after their "ritualistic satanic theory" failed - that one failed so much that after talking about it for a year they did not take it to trial.

At some point you're going to have to admit that all of this was alleged, long ago, and when tested in court it failed. The best Massi could come up with - a theory that not even Mignini advanced - was that the pair made a momentary "choice for evil", which even Massei admitted was against their characters.

Read the Massei report. Based on the Massei report, we actually CAN argue that these two girls were in the midst of a normal friendship, with normal household tensions. None of that was found by ANY court to have cotributed to the murder.

Yet here we have it, 5 1/2 years later, people saying that it does. You'd think this had never been to trial.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have reviewed some a summary of Micheli's report and I think that he was bit closer to the truth than Massei across the board although Massei makes a reasoned case as well.

Does anybody know who the prosecuter was in the first appeals trial? Was it still Mignini or was it somebody else. I don't get the impression the prosecution even partipcated in that trial at times.

It was Mignini and Comodi. Comodi handled mainly the DNA forensics. Mignini handled the "evil witch" part of the prosecution's case.

 

[DrTesla]

Once again, you reverse the burden of proof. Fortunately this was something that the prosecution DID try to prove at trial, and they failed.

You now wish to say that this failure to prove the "bad relationship is the motive" theory was not tested and found wanting. Some of the British girls testified, Filomena testified and the triers of fact came away saying, "there is nothing here which would count towards a motive."

The prosecutors did not change their allegation of motive. They went to trial with it, after their "sex game gone wrong" motive failed, and after their "ritualistic satanic theory" failed - that one failed so much that after talking about it for a year they did not take it to trial.

At some point you're going to have to admit that all of this was alleged, long ago, and when tested in court it failed. The best Massi could come up with - a theory that not even Mignini advanced - was that the pair made a momentary "choice for evil", which even Massei admitted was against their characters.

Read the Massei report. Based on the Massei report, we actually CAN argue that these two girls were in the midst of a normal friendship, with normal household tensions. None of that was found by ANY court to have cotributed to the murder.

Yet here we have it, 5 1/2 years later, people saying that it does. You'd think this had never been to trial.

don't friends typically hang out socially? I don't get the impression these two ever hanged out socially. knox harassed meridith by text all night on Halloween yet Meredith clearly has no desire to hang out with her. you think Knox liked that? LOL You don't understand Foxy Knoxy.

the first jury found her guilty by 8-0 margin so they ever didn't care about motive theory or they found some credibliy in Mignin's motive theory.

I think Massei went out of his way to give Knox a benefit of the doubt, maybe b/c Knox was always winking at him and smiling at him and showing him a bit of cleavage during the trial. you know how susceptible these old Italian horn dogs are to a woman's charms. I don't doubt drugs played a role, but the drug abuse was especially toxic b/c of her raw jealousy and resentment of her little prissy conceited roommate. jealousy in women is the oldest motive for murder in the history of the world. everybody knows this young women go at it and they never forgive each other like young men tend to do. this has all the elements of a cat fight that spiraled out of control b/c one of the cats was laced out on cocaine or herorin mixed with alcohol and weed, an especially potent cocktail of crazy.

you actually want to talk about the motive b/c it's obviously not something anybody can prove one way or another, rather than talk about all the circumstantial and physical evidence against Knox to go with her utter lack of an alibi.

 

[Kaosium]

you don't have to prove a motive, b/c most of the time that would require people to have the ability to read the minds of killers b/c many murders don't make any sense, but in this case, clearly Knox and Meridith had problems with each other and the other rooomates and Meridith's friends

Actually no they didn't. They testified they got along fine, actually. What happened was after the murder the British girls went back to England and when Amanda was arrested the papers were saying things like Amanda had confessed, that the 'murder knife' had her DNA on it, that there was a video with her being at the cottage, etc, and of course Amanda was sleeping with half of Italy. They ended up being interviewed by the tabloids and in the context of everything that was going around then, that it was basically definite that Amanda was a lying slut who'd murdered Meredith, they said what they could think of, which didn't amount to much. Something about Meredith telling them about Amanda keeping her keychain pink rabbit vibrator and condoms in the bathroom, that Meredith had to tell Amanda how to use the brush with an Italian toilet...and I don't remember it all, didn't amount to much actually.

Being as Mignini's first 'theory' of the crime had crashed and burned before Matteini, and he was attempting to establish a motive, he questioned them about what they said to the tabloids when he called them back to Italy, where they also said how displeased they were with Amanda's behavior after the murder.

To their credit when they testified in court they all said Amanda and Meredith got along fine, though Robyn Butterworth said it was her perception that there was some tension between them' which only says something about Robyn Butterworth's perception, being as Meredith and Amanda had recently socialized together at the Chocolate Festival and was with Amanda at the music concert when Amanda met Raffaele.

and Patrick all testified to this.

Patrick said Knox seemed real upset when he told her that he was going to hire Meredith at the bar and he called it the queen bee syndrome.

Which just says something about how pissed Patrick was when he got out of jail, having been told he was only there because of Amanda and that Amanda had never recanted, which she did before she even knew Patrick had been arrested.

He also either lied several times out of court to various different media sources (and the ECHR) about his treatment at police hands, or he lied in court when Amanda was on trial and it really mattered.

Now, Massei doesn't agree that Knox hated Meredith, and it thinks it was just rudy getting freaky with Meredith that encouraged the others two involvement b/c they were on drugs but I can't buy that. Massei said the two didn't hate each other but still found Knox guilty so it's pointless to say Knox liked the victim b/c there is evidence against her regardless.

That evidence is of dubious nature and much of it isn't even incriminating.

Mignini never said this murder was a satanic rite. It may have started out as as a Halloweenish prank just to scare Meridith and I think that theory is supported by the fact that Knox seemed really intent on meeting up with Meridith on Halloween night, bombarded her with texts, despite the fact the two did not seem to be hanging out socially by that time.

The week before Amanda had met Raffaele and was spending most of her time with him, on Halloween Raffaele went home.

BTW, you want to know one of the biggest coincidence in this case? After the murder someone went to the papers (police maybe too) and said the previous week he'd gotten an unsolicited message on his cellphone that said something to the effect of: 'this Wednesday Meredith dies.'

This is in Italy, there's not many Meredith's in Italy, certainly not many who'd die the day following Wednesday, which was Halloween.

However it had absolutely nothing to do with the murder, that became definite, do you know why?

if Raffe's DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't put them in the murder room, what can? that was DNA was an exceptionally strong match with two different DNA types as I understand it , the Y DNA type and the auto DNA type both pointing right at Raffe, and the prosecution could concede the 4 loci on the auto DNA that the defense contested and it would still be a strong match for raffe.

What you're suffering from is the mistaken impression that because Raffaele's DNA was found on the bra clasp that it absolutely (or nearly) means Raffaele actually touched the bra clasp. It doesn't, especially in this case. That's (in part) why the seven DNA experts sent a letter to the court at the end of the first trial, and why so many others have protested this case including the two former FBI agents.

This isn't nitpicking, it's a broad violation of the measures needed to prevent results like on the bra clasp. They have to take all those precautions because there's a very real danger this crap can happen, and the bra clasp and Stefanoni's lab procedures are like the poster children for how this can happen.


Again, do you think that because there's about four men who contributed DNA to that clasp that it means they all touched it? No, odds are no one but Meredith ever touched that clasp, (with bare hands) not even Rudy Guede who ripped the bra off from the other side and who was excluded as a possible contributor.

 

[DrTesla]

If I was Knox and Raffe, I would be inclined to downplay my drug abuse that night, b/c everybody knows drugs can impact your judgment and when your judgment is impaired, you can do some dumb things that you wouldn't have done otherwise. they chose to actually play up their drug abuse, to account for their rather CONVENIENT memory failures, which they probably thought was being slick, but reality is this crime is so weird that drugs were almost certain to be involved, and by playing up their drug abuse they only really helped hang themselves.

 

[Bill Williams]

don't friends typically hang out socially? I don't get the impression these two ever hanged out socially. knox harassed meridith by text all night on Halloween yet Meredith clearly has no desire to hang out with her. you think Knox liked that? LOL You don't understand Foxy Knoxy.

the first jury found her guilty by 8-0 margin so they ever didn't care about motive theory or they found some credibliy in Mignin's motive theory.

I think Massei went out of his way to give Knox a benefit of the doubt, maybe b/c Knox was always winking at him and smiling at him and showing him a bit of cleavage during the trial. you know how susceptible these old Italian horn dogs are to a woman's charms. I don't doubt drugs played a role, but the drug abuse was especially toxic b/c of her raw jealousy and resentment of her little prissy conceited roommate. jealousy in women is the oldest motive for murder in the history of the world. everybody knows this young women go at it and they never forgive each other like young men tend to do. this has all the elements of a cat fight that spiraled out of control b/c one of the cats was laced out on cocaine or herorin mixed with alcohol and weed, an especially potent cocktail of crazy.

you actually want to talk about the motive b/c it's obviously not something anybody can prove one way or another, rather than talk about all the circumstantial and physical evidence against Knox to go with her utter lack of an alibi.

I was going to ask, "Are you serious?" But then it occurred to be you are.

This has all the elements of a cat fight that spiralled out of control? You are trying your best to actually outdo Giulano Mignini for the most outlandish theory of this crime.

Congratulations. Your post should be read by everyone. Which is why I quoted it in its entirety.

 

[DrTesla]

are there anymore Amanda Knox movies in the pipeline? a movie that is based on Knox and raffe commiting this crime along with rudy in a noir type style would do real well I think. that lifetime movie about it really sucked and seemed to avoid trying to take an opinion on the case one way or another which is the death of any movie b/c a movie needs to have a point of view to be interesting.

I wish I could direct such a movie b/c I have some great ideas on who to cast as Knox and how to depict the tension b/t her and that conceited judgmental prissy little Meredith b. roommate. I think that I could make it pretty funny as well, the type of humor poking fun of criminals and the justice system seen in something like The Clockwork Orange.

the first scene in the movie would be Meredith strutting her stuff in that music video. that or Knox having sex on the moving train with a complete stranger to underscore her issues with sex and her desire to live on the edge as she probably saw it.

 

[Briars]

I can't remember the details anymore. It was something about how Comodi asked both Amanda and her mother during the trial about the phone calls, and her mother remembered one that Amanda didn't remember, or something like that. It was one of those things where Comodi was trying to trick Amanda, and then it turned out Commodi had her facts wrong. The guilters still don't realize Comodi messed up.

She phoned her mother at 4am before the door had been broken down. She denied making that call and settled on not remembering. Her mother pressed her to find out why she had called when nothing had happened Edda later tried to help by saying Amanda told her all about her morning in detail during the call. This was challenged by the prosecution as the first early morning call lasted only 89 seconds. How did Comodi mess up? On another topic is anyone bothered by the continued changing stories? Amanda said she saw nothing through Meredith's keyhole but Sollecito writes they saw the unmade bed and brown purse. Amanda was shocked when Sollecito withdrew her alibi and that ended the romance. He said today she thinks of him as a hero. Which is it, its so hard to keep straight.?

 

[DrTesla]

I was going to ask, "Are you serious?" But then it occurred to be you are.

This has all the elements of a cat fight that spiralled out of control? You are trying your best to actually outdo Giulano Mignini for the most outlandish theory of this crime.

Congratulations. Your post should be read by everyone. Which is why I quoted it in its entirety.

what I have noticed is that most of the partisans on both sides of this Great Debate over Knox are always real serious about the topic and when some badazz like me shows up and incorporates some humor while also making some serious points, it really rocks your world.

 

[yimyammer]

There's this quote from The Guardian.... others are available"

Forensic investigators from Rome were soon on the scene, taking over from local police and barring the town coroner from checking the body until around midnight, preventing an accurate time of death being determined.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/03/meredith-kercher-murder-burglary-perugia

thanks, how are you getting this:

Mignini himself, orders that the liver temperature not be taken - so as to cloud forever the TOD.

out of that article?

 

[DrTesla]

thanks, how are you getting this:




out of that article?

I think Massei said TOD was 10.50 give or take 15 minutes either way. it def. wasn't 9.30 as knox apologists claim, cuz the screams were heard by two witnesses much later.

there's a reason why Knox kept trying to push out the idea that she and her "boyfriend" had dinner real late in the 10 o'clock hour although raffe's daddy's undermined that story, and it's b/c she knew this stuff was going down in the 10 oclock hour.

 

[yimyammer]

What do you think the circumstantial evidence is, yimyammer?

Ha! I might have to say you got me.

I'm no expert on the legal definition of circumstantial evidence, what is the accepted definition?

What is the accepted legal definition of evidence?

The "confession" where she points the blame at Patrick and says she was there seems like a circumstance that brought suspicion upon herself.

Raf withdrawing her alibi and then reinstating it.

The bra clasp and DNA on the knife seem to be evidence, but obviously in dispute, as I would assume most evidence is disputed by defense attorneys.

I'm not saying I give these much weight if any nor do I think they are enough to convict, it just doesn't strike me that the prosecution got up and said AK/Raf committed this murder and when the judge asked why, they responded by saying "because we said so".

Good question though, because I'm drawing a blank for the most part

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Comodi must be the real killer

I can't remember the details anymore. It was something about how Comodi asked both Amanda and her mother during the trial about the phone calls, and her mother remembered one that Amanda didn't remember, or something like that. It was one of those things where Comodi was trying to trick Amanda, and then it turned out Commodi had her facts wrong. The guilters still don't realize Comodi messed up.

It was covered in these threads. IIRC, Comodi said that the call at noon, which was 3 AM Seattle time. However, the call was actually around 12:45, which is 4:45 Seattle time. It is interesting how Amanda gets criticized for not reacting to the blood in the bathroom, but then when she reacts to her worries, that, too, is the wrong response.

 

[DrTesla]

Ha! I might have to say you got me.

I'm no expert on the legal definition of circumstantial evidence, what is the accepted definition?

What is the accepted legal definition of evidence?

The "confession" where she points the blame at Patrick and says she was there seems like a circumstance that brought suspicion upon herself.

Raf withdrawing her alibi and then reinstating it.

The bra clasp and DNA on the knife seem to be evidence, but obviously in dispute, as I would assume most evidence is disputed by defense attorneys.

I'm not saying I give these much weight if any nor do I think they are enough to convict, it just doesn't strike me that the prosecution got up and said AK/Raf committed this murder and when the judge asked why, they responded by saying "because we said so".

Good question though, because I'm drawing a blank for the most part

circumstantial evidence is something like her 3 am call to her mother the night of the murder, their turning off of their cell phones, the fact the cell phone record doesn't back up her claim she was real worried about Meredith, stuff like that. there is a ton of it in this case, much much more than any other criminal case that I can recall in recent memory.