Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Charlie Wilkes]

Heya Charlie Wilkes,
I just have to assume that the Unidentified DNA on Raf's boxer shorts is from Perugia law enforcement, right?

Maybe, but it could have been picked up in the laundry too. DNA is easily spread around.

 

[Briars]

Daylight savings time ended on November 4th, 2007, but IIUC it ended a week earlier in Europe, on the last Sunday of October. Therefore, one should take this into account when calculating the time difference between Seattle and Perugia. It is usually 9 hours different but during the week in question, it was 8 hours.

Who calls their mother at 4am then when nothing had happened?

 

[yimyammer]

Sure, I posted about it at the time.

I'm interested in crime and especially wrongful convictions. I became convinced of Amanda's innocence early in 2008. I became very interested in the case because the public largely assumed she was guilty, and I could see how wrong they were. At that time, however, I didn't know what she was like. I assumed she must be a brat to land in the soup the way she did. But she's not and never was a brat. She was just clueless.

I live in the San Juan Islands, about 100 miles north of Seattle. In August 2008, I drove down to Seattle and met Amanda's mother and stepfather as well as other supporters whose daughters went to school with Amanda. That was the genesis of FOA. I was given access to the case files, and I became an ad hoc archivist, providing information to reporters and to experts who were interested in the case, as well as people here on JREF.

I got to be friends with Amanda's stepfather. In 2010, he was living in Perugia, feeling somewhat isolated, and he invited me to come visit. So I did. I visited Amanda in prison twice.

At this point I have a pretty good sense of what she is like. She is a warm, kind-hearted person who is dearly loved by her friends and her family. She is not a party girl or a sexpot by any means. She is bookish and very intelligent, but she also enjoys light, fluffy entertainment. One night I was at her mother's house and she picked the DVD we all watched: Up.

She smoked pot when she was younger. She was experimenting with her sexuality. So what. She is someone who any parent would be proud to have as a daughter. She had nothing to do with Meredith's murder, and everything that has happened to her is beyond crazy. And yet people are still clinging to this tabloid caricature from 2007. That's part of what makes this case so interesting.

Thx for the heads up, a couple of Q's if you don't mind--->do you feel like you've been able to help in any way & was it awkward approaching that family?

I would think they would be standoffish to random people coming up to them claiming to want to help (not saying you were disingenuous but obvious many folks have all kinds of whacked out motives).

One of the things that bugs me about this case is the hyperbole coming from both sides. In the case of PIP, I hear it said there is absolutely no evidence against AK/Raf and I can't help but feel that isn't accurate even though I think they are innocent. Isn't circumstantial evidence, well, evidence?

I assume that's the extreme position they feel they have to take, but I think it undermines their argument when they don't acknowledge that there is evidence and not absolutely none. I think its because of this that this argument rages on to this day and will continue to do so infinitum.

 

[Bill Williams]

Who calls their mother at 4am then when nothing had happened?

Briars - remind me what this has to do with anything? Truly, I've forgotten.

 

[yimyammer]

Actually, I have thought of that and decided time served. I was probably the only one who thought justice was served when they were acquitted, now I fear they may have to spend a lot more time in jail, I think they are in deep trouble.

Fair enough, probably too much time imo, but you can't take back what's already done and I'm sure they'd be thrilled with that sentence. It certainly doesn't look too good for them at this juncture but the Italian legal process continues to surprise me. Looking forward to seeing the next decision report all the back & forth that is sure to ensue.

I just wish somehow, someway, jaw-dropping clarity could be found in this case that settles the matter accurately, once and for all.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>One of the things that bugs me about this case is the hyperbole coming from both sides. In the case of PIP, I hear it said there is absolutely no evidence against AK/Raf and I can't help but feel that isn't accurate even though I think they are innocent. Isn't circumstantial evidence, well, evidence?

I assume that's the extreme position they feel they have to take, but I think it undermines their argument when they don't acknowledge that there is evidence and not absolutely none. I think its because of this that this argument rages on to this day and will continue to do so infinitum.

What do you think the circumstantial evidence is, yimyammer?

 

[Kaosium]

Who calls their mother at 4am then when nothing had happened?

Something had happened, she found the door open and drops of blood in the bathroom. She wasn't sure what to think of it, so she called her mom, (for the first time) then told Raffaele, who thought she was being kinda silly at first. It was what started them getting worried and going back to the cottage calling Meredith's phone and all the others.

I think what happened here was Comodi got mixed up about the time zone differences and daylight savings time schedule and thought Amanda had called her Mom before she went back to the cottage. When she asked Amanda on the stand about it, Amanda naturally didn't remember that call being as it didn't actually occur 'before everything happened.'

Incidentally, in a taped conversation in the jail Amanda had indicated she didn't specifically remember that particular call amidst all the other ones she made to her mother and others during that time, which might have been the genesis of the prosecution thinking there was something to it.

 

[Briars]

Briars - remind me what this has to do with anything? Truly, I've forgotten.

Well Bill that doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[DrTesla]

This post shows the futility of the prosecution's case against Sollecito and Knox. The prosecution tried to throw everything at them to see if something stuck. At the end of the day nothing does.

This post assumes that everything the prosecution said is factual. Please let me repost the 11 things that even the convicting court did not find as factual - there was no motive, there was no psychopathology. there was a normal relationship between Meredith and Knox.

Etc. Etc.

And that was the convicting court. The only way to assume guilt these days is to return to everything that the prosecution quite randomly threw at two students to see what stuck. I mean, is anyone going to post that they now find as factual that this was a Hallowe'en-esque satanic ritual gone wrong?

I think that's next for anyone who is following the prosecution that closely... eventually you're going to have to.

And while at it, explain why there is no forensics at all of the pair in the murder room? Someone upthread had Knox and Sollecito trying to stuff the body into the closet... that would guarantee that a full set of forensics would be left of the two.... oh, I forgot. The lamp. The desk lamp used for a clean-up to the molecular level that removed two of three sets of forensics, and even masked that a clean-up had taken place.

When are people going to abandon this prosecution? What hold does Mignini have over people? That one is a head scratcher.

you don't have to prove a motive, b/c most of the time that would require people to have the ability to read the minds of killers b/c many murders don't make any sense, but in this case, clearly Knox and Meridith had problems with each other and the other rooomates and Meridith's friends and Patrick all testified to this. Patrick said Knox seemed real upset when he told her that he was going to hire Meredith at the bar and he called it the queen bee syndrome. Now, Massei doesn't agree that Knox hated Meredith, and it thinks it was just rudy getting freaky with Meredith that encouraged the others two involvement b/c they were on drugs but I can't buy that. Massei said the two didn't hate each other but still found Knox guilty so it's pointless to say Knox liked the victim b/c there is evidence against her regardless.

Mignini never said this murder was a satanic rite. It may have started out as as a Halloweenish prank just to scare Meridith and I think that theory is supported by the fact that Knox seemed really intent on meeting up with Meridith on Halloween night, bombarded her with texts, despite the fact the two did not seem to be hanging out socially by that time.

if Raffe's DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't put them in the murder room, what can? that was DNA was an exceptionally strong match with two different DNA types as I understand it , the Y DNA type and the auto DNA type both pointing right at Raffe, and the prosecution could concede the 4 loci on the auto DNA that the defense contested and it would still be a strong match for raffe.

 

[DrTesla]

this crack head as you called him,when he was asked how he could identify Amanda,he said it was because he had a few drinks with her and her uncle in August in some bar,which was over a month before she arrived in Perugia,and also from the gap she has in her front teeth,the judge asked Amanda to smile and when she did she displayed a perfect set of teeth both top and bottom, At that point the judge had no option but to dismiss this hired liar for the prosecution.Mignini also used another of his perjurers Curatolo in this and two other cases and he was destroyed in Hellmann's court.Kokomania disappeared as soon as he finished giving evidence but Curatolo hung around and Mignini fearing the international press offering him money to tell them the truth about why he lied for the prosecution took the steps necessary to insure he never told the international press how evidence is obtained against the innocent in Perugia

it's hard to believe that you would have two people who were drug dealers or drug addicts that would testify in a murder trial if there was not truth to what they saw. I can't see these type of people wanting to get involved with police if they dont' have to for obvious reasons. I understand to a degree that they had to throw out Kokomania but his story seems too difficult to make up and he knew details of the night that only somebody who was there would know. I do think he made up aspects of his story to make it more glamorous but that doesn't mean he didn't see what he said he saw.

 

[Kaosium]

The prosecution made a mistake trying to throw too much into this narrative. It is the reason why to this day even the most convinced of the two students' guilt cannot put together a coherent one.

Note what guilters have to do. They need Knox and Sollecito coming to the cottage with a mop on the morning of the 2nd, yet ignore that btoh of them have pretty much alerted the world that something is amiss at the cottage. So undaunted, guilters say that the reason they are there is to continue a clean-up - using a mop which eventually tested as forensically worthless. All this while they had already alerted Filomena, Raffaele's police-officer sister, etc.

And somehow these signs of obvious innocence are made to sound suspicious.

Apparently they did not think Knox let Meredith's phones ring long enough. This was supposed to be a sign she didn't care about Meredith. All this ignores that all those phones include time-stamps and recognizable phone numbers - they act as a "call-back feature".

All this stuff, and more, is thrown into the mix so that something, anything can stick. In the meantime, the cops themselves, Mignini himself, orders that the liver temperature not be taken - so as to cloud forever the TOD. No matter, stomach contents tend to indicate that TOD is way, way before 10 pm.... yet this conflicted with the developing prosecution narrative which was to include late night screams heard from across the street, and heroin addicts in the square.

The prosecution suffered from too much narrative. An ever changing story, which Mignini himself eventually retreated from, pulling Amanda herself out into the hallway to explain the lack of forensics in the murder room.

Sollecito and Knox had exactly two stories - one with mutual alibis that they stuck to for all of but 48 hours in this saga, then 48 hours when they were separated and the cops/prosecution were lying to them about what the other one was saying.

And today, Raffaele himself cites his strength in God for being able to withstand this - he is asked why he will not lie about Knox - withdrawing her alibi - and he says it's because he cannot lie about it. He is her alibi, as she is his.

If this were Filomena and her boyfriend..... where would we be? If this group here contained Friends of Filomena because she'd been railroaded... maybe for taking her computer from a crime scene, or not crying at the right time, or admitting to Mignini that she "had sinned" by using soft drugs....

.... or that Filomena had so rummaged through her room (cf. John Follain) that it was now impossible to tell if the break in had been staged or not in her very bedroom....

The point is that the prosecution just when with a buckshot approach to a narrative back then, and guilters these days resist a comprehensive narrative of this crime which points to guilt for a reason.

Machiavelli is on record as saying there doesn't need to be one. There just needs to be evidence of guilt. Regardless that the evidence makes no sense.

How long will people defend the prosecution in this?

Heh, I actually started to write up something similar with examples like and including some of yours, but decided not to. Good post!

 

[Kaosium]

it's hard to believe that you would have two people who were drug dealers or drug addicts that would testify in a murder trial if there was not truth to what they saw. I can't see these type of people wanting to get involved with police if they dont' have to for obvious reasons. I understand to a degree that they had to throw out Kokomania but his story seems too difficult to make up and he knew details of the night that only somebody who was there would know. I do think he made up aspects of his story to make it more glamorous but that doesn't mean he didn't see what he said he saw.

If I recall correctly, Kokomani was called in because there was some evidence he was in the area, I think it was his car was sighted (or one like it?) there at some point after the murder. He also said something about Rudy wanting to rent his car after the murder, but given his bizarre testimony and appearance and later revelations about his activities he disappeared from the case discussion.

I always wondered that if there was any truth to Rudy's story, if Kokomani might either know it or have been involved, even if it was just to provide Rudy with a potential getaway if he'd not been interrupted and could have continued with the burglary.

Does anyone know what happened to him?

 

[Bill Williams]

you don't have to prove a motive, b/c most of the time that would require people to have the ability to read the minds of killers b/c many murders don't make any sense, but in this case, clearly Knox and Meridith had problems with each other and the other rooomates and Meridith's friends and Patrick all testified to this. Patrick said Knox seemed real upset when he told her that he was going to hire Meredith at the bar and he called it the queen bee syndrome. Now, Massei doesn't agree that Knox hated Meredith, and it thinks it was just rudy getting freaky with Meredith that encouraged the others two involvement b/c they were on drugs but I can't buy that. Massei said the two didn't hate each other but still found Knox guilty so it's pointless to say Knox liked the victim b/c there is evidence against her regardless.

Mignini never said this murder was a satanic rite. It may have started out as as a Halloweenish prank just to scare Meridith and I think that theory is supported by the fact that Knox seemed really intent on meeting up with Meridith on Halloween night, bombarded her with texts, despite the fact the two did not seem to be hanging out socially by that time.

if Raffe's DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't put them in the murder room, what can? that was DNA was an exceptionally strong match with two different DNA types as I understand it , the Y DNA type and the auto DNA type both pointing right at Raffe, and the prosecution could concede the 4 loci on the auto DNA that the defense contested and it would still be a strong match for raffe.

What was found as factual by Judge Massei was that clearly they did not have problems with each other.

You simply cannot repeat this, when it is on the record - found as factual even by the convicting judge - that there were no problems with each other.

Why keep repeating it if it is demonstrably not true?

Also Mignini did say this was a home-grown ritualistic rite. I don't think he actually ever used the Italian for Satanic, but in the first year, that's the general theory he advanced. Why do you now deny it?

 

[Bill Williams]

Well Bill that doesn't surprise me one bit.

What does calling at 4 am mean? Why is this important to the guilter narrative? It changes so much and never includes everyting... it's just flinging accusation after accusation to see what sticks.

How does this fit into a larger guilter narrative? I guess there isn't one. Unless you want to provide one.

Once again, what's this got to do with anything?

 

[Mary_H]

If I recall correctly, Kokomani was called in because there was some evidence he was in the area, I think it was his car was sighted (or one like it?) there at some point after the murder. He also said something about Rudy wanting to rent his car after the murder, but given his bizarre testimony and appearance and later revelations about his activities he disappeared from the case discussion.

I always wondered that if there was any truth to Rudy's story, if Kokomani might either know it or have been involved, even if it was just to provide Rudy with a potential getaway if he'd not been interrupted and could have continued with the burglary.

Does anyone know what happened to him?

He's back in Albania tending to his olive grove.

 

[RWVBWL]

Not Freinds???...

<snip>
but in this case, clearly Knox and Meridith had problems with each other and the other rooomates and Meridith's friends and Patrick all testified to this. Patrick said Knox seemed real upset when he told her that he was going to hire Meredith at the bar and he called it the queen bee syndrome. Now, Massei doesn't agree that Knox hated Meredith, and it thinks it was just rudy getting freaky with Meredith that encouraged the others two involvement b/c they were on drugs but I can't buy that. Massei said the two didn't hate each other but still found Knox guilty so it's pointless to say Knox liked the victim b/c there is evidence against her regardless.
<snip>

Greetings Dr. Tesla,
Ah, you speak of friends.
I've got a few, I'm sure you do too,
right?

Here's a question for ya:
Do the statements below signify friendship?


A week before she died,
Meredith Kercher accomponied Amanda Knox to a classical music concert.
I've been to many a classical concert here in Santa Monica, California, heck my "friend" Jenn Argenti plays violin in the Santa Monica Orchestra.
And I've never gone to see a show with anyone that I did not consider, "my friend"...

You've heard of the dude from downstairs named Giacomo, ya know the 1 growing marijuana below, right? Meredith Kercher had just become sexually intimate with Giacomo and so she borrowed a coupla condoms from Amanda. Esh, I've given out more than a few jimmy's, err condoms, to the boyz when I used to run an old surfshop in "DogTown". I guess you could call 'em 'friends'. I doubt that I would ever give a condom to someone I disliked, would you?

A coupla days before she died, Meredith had lunch with Amanda, Laura+Filomena in their flat for the last time, heck even Raffaele came over too, IIRC. Ah, a nice friendly lunch with all the housemates...

But check this out, Doc:
A few hours later, Meredith, 1 or 2 of her English gal pals, Amanda+Raf, while out on the town in Perugia, shared some wine together. I luv drinking and socializing with 'friends'while out on the town, don't you?

Meredith drew a tattoo on Amanda before she was brutally slain by Guede-o.
I don't know about you, Doc,
but nobody I do not lilke is ever gonna pick up a pen and draw a fake tat on me. You?

Lastly,
on Halloween night,
Miss Meredith Kercher sent Miss Amanda Knox a reply text,
ending it with an "X"...

As far as I know, Dr. Tesla,
"X" means I luv ya...


Meredith hated Amanda?
Amanda hated Meredith?
Right...

 

[Mary_H]

What does calling at 4 am mean? Why is this important to the guilter narrative? It changes so much and never includes everyting... it's just flinging accusation after accusation to see what sticks.

How does this fit into a larger guilter narrative? I guess there isn't one. Unless you want to provide one.

Once again, what's this got to do with anything?

I can't remember the details anymore. It was something about how Comodi asked both Amanda and her mother during the trial about the phone calls, and her mother remembered one that Amanda didn't remember, or something like that. It was one of those things where Comodi was trying to trick Amanda, and then it turned out Commodi had her facts wrong. The guilters still don't realize Comodi messed up.

 

[DrTesla]

What was found as factual by Judge Massei was that clearly they did not have problems with each other.

You simply cannot repeat this, when it is on the record - found as factual even by the convicting judge - that there were no problems with each other.

Why keep repeating it if it is demonstrably not true?

Also Mignini did say this was a home-grown ritualistic rite. I don't think he actually ever used the Italian for Satanic, but in the first year, that's the general theory he advanced. Why do you now deny it?

I can disagree with Massie on some of his conclusions b/c the testimony of the roommates and the victim's English friends clearly indicates some problems b/t the two girls. You don't agree with Massei's final conclusion that Knox is guilty so it's hiliarious for you to act like Massei is infalliable on the smaller stuff. it can't prove a motive but it does give credence to the idea that Knox resented Meredith for one reason or another, and I think the fact Knox gave an unsolicited statement about the vibrator in court kind of indirectly admits there was some tension over the vibrator and Knox's sex life which involved bringing strange men over to the cottage all the time. It's not hard to envision Knox at least getting the impression that Meredith judged her even if Meredith never said anything to her about it, and I do think Knox was jealous of Meredith as some of her own testimony seemed to indicate in which she talked about how she couldn't measure up to Meredith in certain ways. if you aren't jealous of somebody else, y ou don't feel compelled to put yourself down and compare yourself to this other person.

Mignini never claimed this was about any kind of rite. His first theory was it was a sex game gone wrong due to the abuse of drugs which I think is a total crap theory cuz Meredith had a boyfriend and no indication that she would have parciipated in something like an orgy.

the final motive theory which is the only one that counts is that there were tensions b/t the two girls ove rKnox's lifestyle and maybe over money as well.

 

[tsig]

I don't believe somebody who actually visited this batty bimbo in jail is going to be objective about the evidence against her. he is a fan boy.

Making a pilgrimage to see St. Amanda would seem to place ones' objectivity in question. I wonder if we'll see any more "witnessing" for Amanda.

"I once was a guilter but after I saw the light the Truth of Her Innocence shown upon me and I knew that all Italy crucified Her."

 

[DrTesla]

Making a pilgrimage to see St. Amanda would seem to place ones' objectivity in question. I wonder if we'll see any more "witnessing" for Amanda.

"I once was a guilter but after I saw the light the Truth of Her Innocence shown upon me and I knew that all Italy crucified Her."

hah, good post, that's exactly how they come across. it's almost like a religion for them.

my understanding is she was living it up in that prison, she had books to read, a computer to use, a guitar to play, she could go exercise frequently, she went to rock concerts put on by other inmates, she went to movies, participated in plays, was able to work, etc. Never heard of a prison this nice before, almost sounds like a summer camp yet we are supposed to believe that she was getting tortured by the police here. It sounds like the other inmates think she got a lot of special treatment.