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Are the two options mutually exclusive?

I suppose any power grab can be ethically justified when you have the Yankee boogieman at your disposal. Next stop, one party elections. Only to protect the revolution from thegreatsatan, of course.
 
Please, stick to the topic; otherwise, posts are likely to get split off to Abandon All Hope with yellow cards adorning them. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
I've exited this thread for quite some time. I see that it took little or no time for the conversation to develop an anti-leftist flare. The funny thing is, most anti-leftist seem not to see, or hope not to see, how oppressive the right-wing régime was in Venezuela. Most anti-left movements in South American history tend to be more repressive than the leftist movements that they try to replace.
 
i never said the interview is faked or so. why do you think so?

Because if it's legit it's direct evidence of severe wrongdoing in the elections. The only reasonable explanation is fraud. Anything other is simply extraordinary and would, as such, require extraordinary evidence.

In the meantime, CNE sternly refuses to audit the electoral roll, which would show whether dead people voted or not, and whether it is likely there were fake voters in the roll.

http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional...audit-under-the-terms-requested-by-dissenters

Never mind that they fined opposition members for preventing just such an inspection being done in opposition primaries.

I guess that “notebooks represent the fundamental proof of the legitimacy of the results obtained, besides being the most important element in the face of a revision of the process on the part of the candidates”* only applies to opposition primaries and not the real thing. Venezuelan law is a curious creature, and highly selective at that.

Again, the only explanation with any logic behind it is fraud.

* thanks to Miguel of Devil's excrement for pointing it out and providing translation

McHrozni
 
Because if it's legit it's direct evidence of severe wrongdoing in the elections. The only reasonable explanation is fraud. Anything other is simply extraordinary and would, as such, require extraordinary evidence.

In the meantime, CNE sternly refuses to audit the electoral roll, which would show whether dead people voted or not, and whether it is likely there were fake voters in the roll.

http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional...audit-under-the-terms-requested-by-dissenters

Never mind that they fined opposition members for preventing just such an inspection being done in opposition primaries.

I guess that “notebooks represent the fundamental proof of the legitimacy of the results obtained, besides being the most important element in the face of a revision of the process on the part of the candidates”* only applies to opposition primaries and not the real thing. Venezuelan law is a curious creature, and highly selective at that.

Again, the only explanation with any logic behind it is fraud.

* thanks to Miguel of Devil's excrement for pointing it out and providing translation

McHrozni

and hwo do we know the interviewed Person told the truth? how do we know there cannot be a reasonable explenation?
and how does one case Show rigged elections? if that was a widespread Problem there would be 100's if not 1000's of People complaining. seems all a bit vague to jump to a conclusion.
 
and hwo do we know the interviewed Person told the truth?

Without investigation we can't know the truth. The CNE refuses to launch an investigation. The only reason that makes any sense to refuse to do so is to hide a voting fraud.

how do we know there cannot be a reasonable explenation?

You're welcome to submit one.

and how does one case Show rigged elections? if that was a widespread Problem there would be 100's if not 1000's of People complaining.

And we're back to the 3000+ complaints the opposition noted, I suppose?

seems all a bit vague to jump to a conclusion.

Yeah, because you missed the crucial part: the CNE refuses to audit the voter roll, which is where the opposition alleges the fraud occurred. I don't know if you missed it deliberately or not, but this is a very important piece of information.

The purpose of the CNE is to give elections credibility. To do so they must entertain any and all remotely valid claims and show they're untrue. If any of the opposition claims are accurate - any at all - the only legal and legitimate action is to immediately invalidate the election and seek those responsible. Claiming the results are "irreversible" and refusing to show something as basic as ensuring no one voted twice or that Cubans residing in Venezuela didn't vote amounts to admitting there was a fraud, and this is how it occurred. Again, there is no other logical explanation.

McHrozni
 
I've exited this thread for quite some time. I see that it took little or no time for the conversation to develop an anti-leftist flare. The funny thing is, most anti-leftist seem not to see, or hope not to see, how oppressive the right-wing régime was in Venezuela. Most anti-left movements in South American history tend to be more repressive than the leftist movements that they try to replace.

Any criticism of a left wing repressive goverment is "Anti Left".

Yeah.Right.
 
Hey, have we covered the punch-up at the Venezuelan Parliament yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22362760

I don't believe we have. The official story is that opposition deputies violently attacked the brave government deputies and president of the parliament. The cameras covering the event turned away when the brawl started for no reason and the whole thing took place during an unscheduled government broadcast that prevented the whole thing being seen on live television. Several opposition deputies were injured, one seriously, whereas none of the ruling party deputies received noteworthy injuries.

It's fairly obvious what happened. Chavizmo -> Fascizmo.

McHrozni
 
I don't believe we have. The official story is that opposition deputies violently attacked the brave government deputies and president of the parliament. The cameras covering the event turned away when the brawl started for no reason and the whole thing took place during an unscheduled government broadcast that prevented the whole thing being seen on live television. Several opposition deputies were injured, one seriously, whereas none of the ruling party deputies received noteworthy injuries.

It's fairly obvious what happened. Chavizmo -> Fascizmo.

McHrozni

I'm not at all certain Bolivar would have been a great admirer of Chavez and his clubhouse, if he were alive today.
 
Isn't this about Venezuela? I know that Vietnam also starts with a V, but you need to check your hemisphere, I think.

As to relevance to the OP, let's all sing together:

Hugo's body lies a moulding in the grave
But his trolls go marching on
 
Commerce minister Alejandro Fleming blamed the shortage of toilet tissue on "excessive demand" built up as a result of "a media campaign that has been generated to disrupt the country".

"The revolution will bring the country the equivalent of 50 million rolls of toilet paper," he was quoted as saying Tuesday by state news agency AVN. "We are going to saturate the market so that our people calm down."

The toilet paper shortage is due to Foreign Imperialists who are full of crap, and only fools would blame all the domestic :rule10 that has hit the fan. But never fear, the Bolivarian Revolution helps the people wipe it off.

They're starting to sound more and more like the former Soviet Socialist Republic of Absurdistan.
 
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Excessive foreign demand for toilet paper?

Government saturation of the toilet paper market?
 
Excessive foreign demand for toilet paper?

Government saturation of the toilet paper market?

Some people are in deep despair to find *something* to criticize Venezuela for. Even toilet paper!

Get a life, they are an indipendent country and they will not come back under US "protection" anymore :D
 
Not even for two ply quilted?

I wasn't aware that the US was trying to leverage this to bring them back under our sway. I was also unaware that the US was advancing this position through posters on the JREF forums. That's a rather circumspect way to go about it.

Or what trustbutverify said had nothing at all to do with the US and your response is just another attempt to bash the US.
 
Some people are in deep despair to find *something* to criticize Venezuela for. Even toilet paper!

You say that as if toilet paper shortages were the only problem. But no well-functioning country has a toilet paper shortage. If they're having trouble stocking their shelves with toilet paper, you can be sure that their economy is flailing in general. Which it is. Toilet paper shortages is merely one of the more amusing symptoms of much deeper problems (their murder rate isn't so amusing).

Get a life, they are an indipendent country and they will not come back under US "protection" anymore :D

Your insistence on attacking the US at every opportunity hardly qualifies you to tell others that they need to spend their time more productively.
 
(their murder rate isn't so amusing).

Nothing compared to Chicago or Baghdad, for the matter

Your insistence on attacking the US at every opportunity hardly qualifies you to tell others that they need to spend their time more productively.

Your insistence on denigrating other countries at every opportunity hardly qualifies you to tell others that they need to spend their time more productively
 
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Some people are in deep despair to find *something* to criticize Venezuela for. Even toilet paper!

Get a life, they are an indipendent country and they will not come back under US "protection" anymore :D

Some people are in deep despair to protect their sacred cows and cant tolerate reality intruding on their "anti-imperialistic" fantasy worlds. :p
 

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