Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

no fingerprints were found at the cottage, not Knox or any of the roomates even (which indicates a cleanup I would think). I think they found his bloody handprint on a pillowcase.

how do you explain no rudy DNA or trace in fiol's bedroom or on the exterior of the house? I would think there would a lot of opportunity for DNA to be rubbed off in a climb into a window w/ broke glass no less.

they didn't erase all the DNA, and keep in mind there wasn't even that much of Rudy's DNA in the bedroom. it wasn't all over the place as you claim. DNA removal requires some kind of pressure or rubbing action and if Knox and Raff's main role was to brandish the knifes and stab the victim then there was much less opportunity for their DNA to be dislocated into the bedroom. also, the police never tested the victim's blood for the other's DNA b/c there was so much of her blood in the room and it just wasn't feasible to test such a large volume of blood.

I think to aruge the Police put it the lamp there is absurd. they would have their own specialized lighting for use in a crime scene and wouldn't rely on some cheap lamp of Amanda's. unless you are trying to claim they tried to frame Knox, which wouldn't surprise me?

I just love the way you avoid answering questions. No matter. This will be decided in Florence anyway.

Cheers.

 

[DrTesla]

The lamp might be of some interest if Amanda's room was at the other end of the house. Whoever moved the lamp took it from the most convenient location.

If Nara heard a bloodcurdling scream of such a horrific nature she had never heard before why didn't she report it to the police immediately, the next day, the next week or even the next month? Because, she didn't hear anything.

so you think it is a coincidence that the only rooomate who didn't have an alibi that night, the only one accused of murder, just happens to have her lamp found in the victim's bedroom?

along with other coincidences like her first time event call to her mother at 3 am seattle time in a state of panic about a body that had not been discovered yet, and her first time event turning off her cell phone a few hours before the murder? man, just a lot of bad luck for Knox that night. what is the chances your roommate would be brutally murdered in your house and there is not one thing that proves you were where you said you were during that timeframe? the laws of probability can be cruel sometimes especially to our heroine AManda.

 

[Rolfe]

I also pointed out that Raf had usage on his computer up unto 9.10 that night so it doesn't seem likely Meridith was dead by 9.30 which is what I think you and others have claimed.

I'll ask again. Do you know what "petitio principii" is? "Affirming the consequent"? Would "circular reasoning" be easier for you to understand?

There is no doubt at all that Meredith was dead by 9.30. None whatsoever.

And her body was not weighed. Someone merely took a guess, by looking at her. That is nowhere near accurate enough to use as a basis for calculations, of anything.

Now, have you figured out which language Amanda's so-called "confession" was written in?

Rolfe.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh by the way, I noticed that you mentioned me countering your list about Massi on Injustice website.

Again, Massie explicating argued that the "science" as you call it proved there were mulitiple attackers. it was based on the lack of defensive wounds to the victim's body that indicates she was unable to fight at all and given the fact rudy is a very small man of 160 lbs she would have been able to put up some kind of fight. also he talks about at least two different knives been used and the cuts came from different angles and this to proves multiple attackers no a lone wolf killer. You are trying to split a hair that can't be split. could you at least detail what you mean by science, b/c it does seem like you are trying to be Bill Clinton slick here.

I do owe you a wee bit of an apology.

I did not say that you countered those things, but your comments made me believe there has to be a disclaimer on those 11 things.

For instance Massei DOES say that "science" allows for a single attacker. What I can be legitimately accused of is leaving people with the impression that Massei found in favour of a single attacker, which he obviously did not. What Massei claims in his motivations are other things, like as you cite above.

And it is not what I mean by "science" which is important here... it is what Massei means by it. By it, he recites the experts who testified to his court that as far as they were concerned, the nature of the wounds and condition of the room, etc., did not rule out a single attacker.

It was Massei himself who factored into things Merediths' martial arts training, the (unjustified in my mind) use of two knives, etc.

So I need to apologize to you if you believe I'm just viewing you as a noisy fool. You have provided a much needed caveat - similar to what Kaosium said way, way up thread that these things are good as one-liners, but they also need to be defended when someone asks for more info.

 

[DrTesla]

I just love the way you avoid answering questions. No matter. This will be decided in Florence anyway.

Cheers.

dude, you always avoid mine and you want to keep me forever on the defensive like I'm the one being investigated for murder, almost. I'm going to make you respond to my logic and I'm not going to confer upon you some kind of authority in this debate to essentially prosecute me.

 

[DrTesla]

I do owe you a wee bit of an apology.

I did not say that you countered those things, but your comments made me believe there has to be a disclaimer on those 11 things.

For instance Massei DOES say that "science" allows for a single attacker. What I can be legitimately accused of is leaving people with the impression that Massei found in favour of a single attacker, which he obviously did not. What Massei claims in his motivations are other things, like as you cite above.

And it is not what I mean by "science" which is important here... it is what Massei means by it. By it, he recites the experts who testified to his court that as far as they were concerned, the nature of the wounds and condition of the room, etc., did not rule out a single attacker.

It was Massei himself who factored into things Merediths' martial arts training, the (unjustified in my mind) use of two knives, etc.

So I need to apologize to you if you believe I'm just viewing you as a noisy fool. You have provided a much needed caveat - similar to what Kaosium said way, way up thread that these things are good as one-liners, but they also need to be defended when someone asks for more info.

ok,, please provide the specific statement in which Massei allowed the scientific possibity of a single attacker b/c that was not my reading of his report at all. To me, he ridicules that idea and in a "scientific" kind of way. what other way could there be in this case, we are not talking about philosophy or some abstract thing here. I'll be happy to concede your point b/c to me its a distinction with a difference if he believes the lone wolf theory isn't legit for whatever reason, but I haven't seen you back up your assertion yet.

Is there a transcript of Massei statement that you can cut and paste from? I think the two pro guilt cites have a PDF version.

 

[DrTesla]

I'll ask again. Do you know what "petitio principii" is? "Affirming the consequent"? Would "circular reasoning" be easier for you to understand?

There is no doubt at all that Meredith was dead by 9.30. None whatsoever.

And her body was not weighed. Someone merely took a guess, by looking at her. That is nowhere near accurate enough to use as a basis for calculations, of anything.

Now, have you figured out which language Amanda's so-called "confession" was written in?

Rolfe.

I do think two witnesses hearing a woman's scream in the 11 o clock hour along with running footsteps seems to indicate there is some doubt about your theory she was dead by 9.30. given raff was stll using his computer by 9.10 it doesn't seem likely they booked over to Knox's house and had murdered her by 9.30. against the crack addict hobo had seen her around 9.45 or so at the basketball court so the earliest the murder took place would be the 10 o clock hour in my view.

I don't want to talk about the confession stuff anymore. in any accusations b/t Knox and the police on that, the police are going to win, they simply have more credibility.

circular reasonsing was the Hellman verdict in spades.

 

[acbytesla]

Knox used the lamp to examine the floor and the rest of the bedroom for any traces of herself, like bloody footprints, bloody handprints, maybe one of her ear piercings came out, etc. Duh.

why would the lamp be on the floor of the room if it wasn't related to the murder. why would gu-ede put it there?

This is just silly Dr. without diploma. Imagine what you are suggesting!!! That Amanda was crawling around a bloody floor attempting to remove only her own handprints and footprints and now an ear piercing next to the Meredith's corpse!!! I can't help but wonder if the good Doctor actually saw the crime scene photos.

As has been pointed out, how do you clean only your own hand prints, shoe prints and DNA while leaving someone else's? Until DT is willing to post precisely how this is done or reject this hypothesis, I'm done with his sophistry. He doesn't deserve to be addressed.

I'm beyond tired of this troll's remarks, none of which is backed up with evidence or citations. Time and time again, he claims to be slicing and dicing everyone up, but never does he provide any references. I'm ok with anyone who approaches this forum in a scholarly manner but I've had it with DrTesla's trollish and childish commentary.

 

[DrTesla]

This is just silly Dr. without diploma. Imagine what you are suggesting!!! That Amanda was crawling around a bloody floor attempting to remove only her own handprints and footprints and now an ear piercing next to the Meredith's corpse!!! I can't help but wonder if the good Doctor actually saw the crime scene photos.

As has been pointed out, how do you clean only your own hand prints, shoe prints and DNA while leaving someone else's? Until DT is willing to post precisely how this is done or reject this hypothesis, I'm done with his sophistry. He doesn't deserve to be addressed.

I'm beyond tired of this troll's remarks, none of which is backed up with evidence or citations. Time and time again, he claims to be slicing and dicing everyone up, but never does he provide any references. I'm ok with anyone who approaches this forum in a scholarly manner but I've had it with DrTesla's trollish and childish commentary.

let me try it from another angle, brother.

let's stipulate knox and raff did participate in this murder for this thought experiment.

what choices do they have? rudy clearly got out of there after the murder, his bloody footprints head straight to the door.

In my mind they have two choices.

they can remove the body from the house and dump it somewhere, and then clean down the entire cottage, removing all traces. this is high risk, but also high reward. high risk b/c if they are seen with the body, it's game over. high reward b/c if the body isn't found at the house, then less likely Knox is going to be high on the list of suspects, as she was simply b/c the roommate was found dead in the house that she had a key to.

the other choice is to try to remove their traces and leave Rudy's so he takes the fall. I would have preferred the other option but I can see why this one would be tempting b/c if they find one guy guilty they might be satisfied with that and move on. the fact that rudy is black and not exactly a model citizen probably came across their minds as well, an assumption that the police would be biased into believing a lone black killer theory is legit.

thus, the lamp on the floor of the bedroom. there is only one reason why a light source would be needed in that bedroom post murder in my mind.

tell me where I'm wrong in my logic.

 

[Grinder]

There is no evidence of staging. As you said, a good staging would look like a real burglary...so what clue is there to go on that leads me to speculate the break in was staged? When I allow myself to speculate staging, I am stopped by the lack of motive.

The motive would be to throw the investigation off. You and others kept saying there was no evidence of staging; I challenged that by asking what evidence could be expected and you say there was no motive. The fact is that a staged burglary doesn't need evidence but the lack of stolen goods is an indicator.

Then I must ask myself why the police speculated that this crime scene was staged? Which I'm convinced started at the beginning with the police declaring before Meredith's body was discovered after the fact that no valuables were stolen. It became re-enforced when police began to suspect Patrick Lumumba as he certainly couldn't or wouldn't have climbed that wall.

They speculated it was staged because nothing was missing. They didn't see obvious signs the wall had been climbed and it seemed glass was on top of things (laptop) that shouldn't have been there since they had been moved. I think you have forgotten that this conversation started over whether in was "lunacy" for anyone to think the robbery was staged.

Not from the first minute. At first they said "this is no burglary" based on the height of the window broken into and the lack of valuables taken but I don't believe they jumped to the idea that there was staging for a few days..probably after they saw Patrick Lumumba talking to Amanda at the University of Foreign Students.

They didn't think it was staged from the first minute, they just thought it was no burglary. If it wasn't a burglary and it wasn't a staged burglary what did they think it was?

Who knows? and who knows? Do you think Rudy was thinking straight minutes after the murder. As for the makeup, you do know that killers sometimes take trophies from their victims? Not that I understand this at all.

It was Filomena's makeup.

And why did they speculate that Grinder? The police declared this as "case closed" within a week. Mignini also thought it was Sexual Sacrificial Rite performed on Halloween. Do you think the Perugian authorities have a clue?
Isn't it actually more likely that this is a small town police force that is inept and lacking the skill to perform a proper investigation?

They thought it was someone she knew because they said it appeared to be consensual sex. I once again suggest you go back and read the stories from the 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Perugia is just a little smaller than Tacoma, hardly a small town.

As for Rudi not emailing or texting or calling anyone, do you think he has never had a phone or a computer? How about the Skype call to his friend?

You and others make a big deal about no emails or texts. It takes a little air out of the argument if he wasn't, at the time, in the practice of using those technology.

I don't think conspiracy murder is something you do with strangers or people you just met. Not having any relationship with Amanda and Raffaele or not having any electronic links is significant as Amanda, Raffaele, Meredith were in constant contact with friends via texts and calls.

I don't believe they got together to kill her but not because A, R and M texted and Rudi didn't. Btw, phone records are dangerous for drug dealers. That's why they own disposables,

Rudy says he's been with lots of girls...who? Did any of them testify for him during his trial? My guess is that Rudy is a pathetic loser and he never talked to Meredith on Halloween or at the Pub. Rudy was only a "basketball" friend to even the boys downstairs. I was under the impression that they didn't even know his real name just his nickname "the baron".

Rudi's fast track wouldn't have many witnesses. Not many women would step up for a killer even if they had been with him. He went out with the Spanish girlks two nights in a row and the party was at someone else's house. He was a young in shape guy that easily could have had female friends.

I'm saying the staging theory becomes essential if the suspects are key holders. I don't think the Police would believe that PL is a second story burglar so if he is a suspect, he has to get into the house and Amanda being her employee means that Amanda probably let him into the house. And I believe he became a suspect early because of Amanda's text and the fact that PL was suspiciously seen at the University speaking to Amanda.

It seems clear they had the staging theory well before PL. I think he became a suspect because of his text

Rudy was 5'10 and a half. I'm pretty sure the dunking part came out of Candace's Book "Murder in Italy". But I didn't buy that book, only checked it out of the library so I can't verify at the moment. We do know that he was an exceptional basketball player.

He played for a company team in Perugia. I have never read that he was some awesome player. Dunking at 5' 10" isn't a given.

 

[DrTesla]

I also want to point out that they probably felt some time pressure, because they could not be certain that none of the other roomates would not return soon, and also b/c meridith had screamed and they would have feared the police having been notified of the scream. so it makes it much more likely they did just try to remove their traces and leave Rudy's b/c that is the quicker of the two options they had. it would obviously required the two of them to move the body, so they would have to leave the house unattended with all the victim's blood and other evidence while they did that which could take at least 2 hours to dispose of, and they probabl didn't want to risk the roommates and/or police coming back before they had wiped away at least the evidence of themselves that they could see.

 

[Rolfe]

I do think two witnesses hearing a woman's scream in the 11 o clock hour along with running footsteps seems to indicate there is some doubt about your theory she was dead by 9.30.

You could tell us when these people told the police about this scream. Were they so alarmed they called the cops immediately? Wouldn't you, if you heard something like that?

Lots of things can sound like a scream, lots of people can run in a town the size of Perugia.

given raff was stll using his computer by 9.10 it doesn't seem likely they booked over to Knox's house and had murdered her by 9.30. against the crack addict hobo had seen her around 9.45 or so at the basketball court so the earliest the murder took place would be the 10 o clock hour in my view.

Sorry, but medical science has a different view. If it's impossible for the people you want to be guilty to have carried out the murder before 9.30, that is something you need to think about. Because the time of death was before 9.30. There is no argument about that.

Remember to take into account the other things we know about, too. The mobile phone connections. The broken down car. The condition of the cottage. What Meredith was wearing. You can't just pluck a number out of mid-air without relating it to the rest of the evidence.

I don't want to talk about the confession stuff anymore. in any accusations b/t Knox and the police on that, the police are going to win, they simply have more credibility.

circular reasonsing was the Hellman verdict in spades.

Maybe other people want to talk about how wrong you were, when you assumed that awkward English translation of an Italian document was Knox writing in her native English. Oh dear.

If of course you're going to give up and simply argue that the police cannot be wrong, this conversation ends here, because you have conceded.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

You could tell us when these people told the police about this scream. Were they so alarmed they called the cops immediately? Wouldn't you, if you heard something like that?

Lots of things can sound like a scream, lots of people can run in a town the size of Perugia.




Sorry, but medical science has a different view. If it's impossible for the people you want to be guilty to have carried out the murder before 9.30, that is something you need to think about. Because the time of death was before 9.30. There is no argument about that.

Remember to take into account the other things we know about, too. The mobile phone connections. The broken down car. The condition of the cottage. What Meredith was wearing. You can't just pluck a number out of mid-air without relating it to the rest of the evidence.




Maybe other people want to talk about how wrong you were, when you assumed that awkward English translation of an Italian document was Knox writing in her native English. Oh dear.

If of course you're going to give up and simply argue that the police cannot be wrong, this conversation ends here, because you have conceded.

Rolfe.

i'' have to review the broken down car thing but I think that was actually something that supported the crack addict hob's testimony that he saw the two later that night b/c he talked about the brokedown car. I think maybe one of the two witnesses who heard the screams talked about the car as well. when do you claim the broke down car thing took place?

I think a lot of people who buy Knox's absurd story about the police just don't like the police and have a paranoia about the police, maybe based on their own experiences, maybe because they break the law in various ways and just prone to seeing the police as the enemy. I can't see any logical reason why the police would torture knox or want to force her into naming some guy they didn't even know. seems like if they could get forced confessions they would have gone for a more important person than some obscure bar owner.

 

[acbytesla]

the other choice is to try to remove their traces and leave Rudy's so he takes the fall. I would have preferred the other option but I can see why this one would be tempting b/c if they find one guy guilty they might be satisfied with that and move on.

thus, the lamp on the floor of the bedroom. there is only one reason why a light source would be needed in that bedroom post murder in my mind.

tell me where I'm wrong in my logic.

That may sound logical to you, but it would be impossible to accomplish. In fact any attempt to remove evidence of yourself would be a fools errand. You would in fact end up leaving more evidence of yourself than you removed. How do you identify only your own fingerprints? Do you think they were examining the floor with a microscope and then comparing any prints with their own? Also, would Amanda be kneeling on the floor while she did this? Can't you see that Amanda would have to be touching the floor to clean it therefore leaving smudges from her knees and hands all the while doing this selective cleaning?

For Amanda and Raffaele to even attempt this they would have to be suspended mid air and they would require at minimum a magnifying glass not to mention about 40 hours. Where is the contraption that holds them off the ground or even yet the magnifying glass?

Clearly you must be able to see that this hypothesis of yours doesn't work. What is the logic in pushing an idea that is unworkable? Who do you think you are? Edison and this is Direct Current???

 

[Rolfe]

i'' have to review the broken down car thing but I think that was actually something that supported the crack addict hob's testimony that he saw the two later that night b/c he talked about the brokedown car. I think maybe one of the two witnesses who heard the screams talked about the car as well. when do you claim the broke down car thing took place?

I think a lot of people who buy Knox's absurd story about the police just don't like the police and have a paranoia about the police, maybe based on their own experiences, maybe because they break the law in various ways and just prone to seeing the police as the enemy. I can't see any logical reason why the police would torture knox or want to force her into naming some guy they didn't even know. seems like if they could get forced confessions they would have gone for a more important person than some obscure bar owner.

Holy avoiding the question, Batman!

You don't know when the broken-down car was there? You didn't know what language the "confession" was written in. Anything else important you don't know?

You're completely hopeless on the facts, so you keep falling back on ridiculous psychobabble. Not going to work, you know.

Rolfe.

 

[Grinder]

Curatolo at first testified that the kids were there from 9:30 until just before midnight but after Mignini finished the end time was a little earlier and he wasn't sure they were there the whole time. Several reporters wrote the story at the time.


The presence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Piazza Grimana between the hours of 9:30 pm and 11:30 pm of 1st November was, in fact, reported only by witness Curatolo, whose credibility this court very much doubts for the following reasons.

First, the deterioration of his intellectual faculties, revealed by the responses given before this Court during his testimony (hearing of 3.26.2011) and resulting from his type of lifestyle and from his habits.

[Mr. Curatolo] is a tramp who at the time lived on the streets whereas today he is detained serving a sentence [detenuto in espiazione di pena] for drug-trafficking [spaccio di sostanza stupefacente] and who, when asked why he had chosen this type of life (at times, in fact, such choices are motivated by idealistic reasons), he responded: “…Because … really I’m an anarchist however I have read the bible and I became a Christian anarchist… and so this is what I chose…

From Nick Pisa in Perugia 2:02PM GMT 28 Mar 2009
Antonio Curatolo, 52, said that a couple he had seen "chatting animatedly" on a basketball court were her alleged murderers, American student Knox and Italian Sollecito.
He told the court that he saw them "around five times" between 9.30pm and midnight on the night Miss Kercher died.

 

[DrTesla]

That may sound logical to you, but it would be impossible to accomplish. In fact any attempt to remove evidence of yourself would be a fools errand. You would in fact end up leaving more evidence of yourself than you removed. How do you identify only your own fingerprints? Do you think they were examining the floor with a microscope and then comparing any prints with their own? Also, would Amanda be kneeling on the floor while she did this? Can't you see that Amanda would have to be touching the floor to clean it therefore leaving smudges from her knees and hands all the while doing this selective cleaning?

For Amanda and Raffaele to even attempt this they would have to be suspended mid air and they would require at minimum a magnifying glass not to mention about 40 hours. Where is the contraption that holds them off the ground or even yet the magnifying glass?

Clearly you must be able to see that this hypothesis of yours doesn't work. What is the logic in pushing an idea that is unworkable? Who do you think you are? Edison and this is Direct Current???

lol, I think you are making it sound more difficult, and again no fingerprints were found at all in the apartment except on a glass in the kitchen. I think fingerprints are usually found on glass or metallic surfaces or plastic surfaces and I doubt those kind of surfaces were present in the victim's room.

again, you refuse to admit they either had to try remove their traces, or they had to remove the body and clean them all up. since the body wasn't removed, it looks like the went with remove their traces. the luminol exposed their bloody footprints that had been wiped up, so you can deny cleanup and try to make it absurd sounding but a clean up effort took place. I also like to point out there were no bloody footprints leading up the bloody footprint on the bathroom mat, which isn't logical unless there was a cleanup. that bloody print is clearly Raff's by the way and would be enough to convict both of them in American courts.

 

[Rolfe]

This is absolutely hilarious. The special select-o-matic fingerprint eraser. Where do I get one?

There's a wee problem with that. I'm not sure the special select-o-matic DNA eraser was commercially available back in 2007. And there's the thing. The more time you spend crawling round a room struggling to find your own fingerprints and rub them out - and where are the signs of rubbing, by the way? - the more time you spend in there shedding DNA.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

This is absolutely hilarious. The special select-o-matic fingerprint eraser. Where do I get one?

There's a wee problem with that. I'm not sure the special select-o-matic DNA eraser was commercially available back in 2007. And there's the thing. The more time you spend crawling round a room struggling to find your own fingerprints and rub them out - and where are the signs of rubbing, by the way? - the more time you spend in there shedding DNA.

Rolfe.

ok, so how come there was absolutel no evidence of Rudy in the roommate;s room where you claimed he broke in at? , no fingerprinters on the window or elsewhere, none of his DNA found in the room, no debris or dirty footprints on the floor from the garden below?

he must have had the special select-o-matic DNA and fingerprint eraser, right?


I'm just using your stupid logic against you.

if he did wipe down that room you think he would have noticed the mixed blood sample of Knox/victim's and just wiped that away too, for all he knows he may have cut himself on the broken glass and it could have been his.

 

[DrTesla]

there is about as much evidence that Rudy came through that window as there is for global warming, given global temperatures have been dropping the past 14 years or so. You are basically Al Gore ranting about global warming with snow on the ground the springtime if you believe Rudy came through that high window. Nothing supports that theory.