Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Rolfe]

Meredith got back about nine or shortly afterwards, on the evidence of her friend who walked part way home with her, and the CCTV camera that caught her walking up to the cottage.

She was dead by about 9.30 on the evidence of the post mortem examination, probably sooner. Which fits with the time Rudy said she died, which was about 9.20 if I remember correctly.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

Medically impossible, sorry. She was dead by 9.30.




Did he? Who said he did that?

Rolfe.

knox has gone out of her way to argue they ate much later then they did (which raffie's dad confirmed was not true based on his call to his son), there's no way the murder happened at 9.30. I understand why you want to make that case b/c it would point to Knox's innocence. the screams were heard much later at night. witnesses saw the two near the cottage later at night.

 

[anglolawyer]

you seem to believe in her innocence, despite that.

I have no idea what exact time Knox invited him in, but I think all 3 arrived together. I would think they were all there by 10 or so and then hung out socially probably smoking pot and then the murder happened later. you've wrongly asserted the murder happened around 9 pm and i'm not sure if meridith had even returned to the house by that point, so I find that curious. where are you getting that information?

We pretty much know what time Meredith got home from the testimony of her friend Sophie Purton. They split up slightly before 9, a few minutes away from the apartment. There is no real dispute about that. I have not asserted anything about the time of the murder while you have been posting.

Thanks for replying about the time. So what did Curatolo see? And if you can handle more than one question at a time, why do you suppose they went from Raf's place back to hers?

 

[DrTesla]

Meredith got back about nine or shortly afterwards, on the evidence of her friend who walked part way home with her, and the CCTV camera that caught her walking up to the cottage.

She was dead by 9.30 on the evidence of the post mortem examination.

Rolfe.

if this was trure, no way the 8 jurors (all 8 of them) find Knox guilty. your timeframe is off.

 

[Skind]

What do you mean, 'whilst leaving'?

As in, went to call on the boys, found no-one in, went up the drive to head off to another score/customer, thought 'Hang on, if no one is in.....'.

 

[DrTesla]

We pretty much know what time Meredith got home from the testimony of her friend Sophie Purton. They split up slightly before 9, a few minutes away from the apartment. There is no real dispute about that. I have not asserted anything about the time of the murder while you have been posting.

Thanks for replying about the time. So what did Curatolo see? And if you can handle more than one question at a time, why do you suppose they went from Raf's place back to hers?

why do you think they BOTH turned off their cell phones that night, if they didn't have bad intentions? neither had a history of turning off their phone, and they been having sex all week without doing it so don't buy that excuse.

I could have sworn you said the murder took place around 9 pm? Is that not correct? Did I misread you?

 

[Rolfe]

knox has gone out of her way to argue they ate much later then they did (which raffie's dad confirmed was not true based on his call to his son), there's no way the murder happened at 9.30. I understand why you want to make that case b/c it would point to Knox's innocence. the screams were heard much later at night. witnesses saw the two near the cottage later at night.

Well, no, you don't understand anything. I was implored by one or two of the guilter group to look into the case, because I was "such a well respected member of the forum" or some guff like that. When I did, the thing that immediately got my attention was that the post mortem evidence proved Meredith was dead by 9.30-ish.

That was my starting point for taking an interest in the case. My realisation that the murder had happened as early as that. I don't want to "make it the case" at all. It's simply fact.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

if this was trure, no way the 8 jurors (all 8 of them) find Knox guilty. your timeframe is off.

It is true. The medical evidence was misrepresented and misunderstood in court. That's what you get when you let lawyers start to look up the medical literature. They haven't a freaking clue.

Rolfe.

 

[anglolawyer]

As in, went to call on the boys, found no-one in, went up the drive to head off to another score/customer, thought 'Hang on, if no one is in.....'.

Ah, OK. I think he first cased the joint, got a kebab ('kabob'?) then came back and did the job.

 

[Skind]

if this was trure, no way the 8 jurors (all 8 of them) find Knox guilty. your timeframe is off.

I'm not sure you get the idea of a what miscarriages of justice can entail.

The evidence means that a TOD beyond about 21:30 is unlikely, the further on you stretch it, the less likely it is. A TOD of 23:00 or later would require Meredith to be have some sort of undiagnosed digestive disorder of which there was no trace AND for her to have behaved in a totally irrational and non-habitual way.

The prosecution presented the TOD as being whenever it suited them whenever it suited them to do so.

The jury believed the prosecution. It doesn't mean it was true.

 

[anglolawyer]

why do you think they BOTH turned off their cell phones that night, if they didn't have bad intentions? neither had a history of turning off their phone, and they been having sex all week without doing it so don't buy that excuse.

I could have sworn you said the murder took place around 9 pm? Is that not correct? Did I misread you?

Go find where I said it.

OK. I get the phones. More critical evidence. We can deduce they had already decided to kill her when they did that, sometime before 9, but let her live until 11.30 and didn't see a reason to change their plans when Rudy showed up. That's fine too.

What about Curatolo?

 

[Rolfe]

Sorry if I'm queering your pitch by revealing the time of death. I'll get back to my popcorn.

Sheesh, I thought someone as opinionated as this guy would actually know something about the evidence.

Rolfe.

 

[DrTesla]

here is some guy talking about Meridith's time of death at true justice. he seems like one of the intelligent people over there, they do have some pretentious sorts:

The first point to note here is that Hellmann misinterprets the first Court’s findings. He ignores the fact that the first Court did determine a TOD between 11pm and 11.30 pm as probable based on the pathology alone, and gave reasons for this.

None of the expert testimony is rehearsed, let alone re-evaluated by Hellmann. He proceeds merely to discredit the reliability of the witnesses as to the other elements such as the scream etc.

One recalls that Nara Capezzali says that she heard a scream sometime between 11 and 11.30 pm. That there was a broken down car and the breakdown driver came and went between perhaps 11 and 11.15 pm.

As mentioned earlier his hypothesizing about the other elements leads him to a TOD of not later than 10.13 pm although this time seems a very random one based on what he presents. He talks in this section about Guede’s statement that he arrived at the cottage at 9 pm.

One suspects that if Hellmann could have fixed the time of death at 9.15 pm or 9.30 pm then he would have done so as either time would be a get out of jail free card for Knox and Sollecito. He did not, but he got them out of jail nevertheless with his hypothesizing - here and elsewhere in his report.

 

[DrTesla]

Sorry if I'm queering your pitch by revealing the time of death. I'll get back to my popcorn.

Sheesh, I thought someone as opinionated as this guy would actually know something about the evidence.

Rolfe.

two different witnesses put it in the 11 clock hour when they heard the blood chilling scream . if time of death was in the 9 o clock hour, then no way 8 jurors found them guilty in the first trial. i'd at least argue 10 clock hour if I was a friend of Amanda, just for credibility sake.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

corrections

why would they want to frame Knox, or force her to accuse her boss? they released her boss after he had an alibi, so why didnt' they lean on the guy who gave him an alibi? she never recanted her accusation and he sat in jail for 14 days.

More falsehoods. They did not release Patrick immediately after the Swiss teacher gave a statement (they questioned him for a long time); they waited about ten days to release Mr. Lumumba. Ms. Knox withdrew her accusation on 7 November in the second memoriale and again in a letter to her lawyers on or about 9 November. Moreover, the police also listened to Ms. Knox talking to her mother (sorry I don't recall the date), where she also indicated that she was at Sollecito's flat.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

SENTENCE OF THE COURT OF ASSIZES OF PERUGIA (PRESIDED OVER BY DR. GIANCARLO MASSEI) IN THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERC

Please go ahead. If I'm wrong, I'll own up to it. But I'm not. No evidence about the lamp was ever introduced. It is not mentioned in either the Massei or Hellmann report.

Neither she nor Raffaele had seen the inside of Meredith’s room after the door was broken down. The news reported about this was what they had heard from the people who were present, and who were talking about it. As for the black lamp discovered in Meredith’s room, she couldn’t give an explanation. She remembered that she had an identical lamp, but she didn’t know if it was still there, since she didn’t pay attention to it. She had heard that the guys downstairs had wanted to ‚celebrate Halloween in some way-- but I didn’t understand, I didn’t know where they were going and how long they would be away‛ (page 65). On the morning of November 2, she nevertheless went to see if they were there because she didn’t know if they were there or not. As for Meredith, she stated that on the morning of November 2 she was worried; she had thought that she might be in her room and have injured herself-- in her house, there were some very strange things, it’s possible she wasn’t even at home. She didn’t know what to think, but she was worried and wanted to break down the door. She denied that she wanted to break down the door to get her lamp back. Anyway, they did not even know that the lamp was missing from her room.

 

[Rolfe]

two different witnesses put it in the 11 clock hour when they heard the blood chilling scream . if time of death was in the 9 o clock hour, then no way 8 jurors found them guilty in the first trial. i'd at least argue 10 clock hour if I was a friend of Amanda, just for credibility sake.

I don't care who heard what when, ten is too late. Rudy said the scream was 9.20, didn't he?

I'm not a friend of Amanda. I'm a scientist. It's really quite tedious the way these lawyers don't seem able to get their brains round the simple fact of the post mortem findings and their implications.

Rolfe.

ETA: Sorry, Anglolawyer.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Is anyone here from "outside of the states" and thinks she's innocent?

I'm outside the States and I think she's half innocent, does that count?

 

[DrTesla]

Three more problems with the luminol footprints. One, no reference prints were taken from Laura, Filomena, (or from Meredith's body). Therefore, even finding a woman's footprint does not mean much. Two, there is a footprint revealed by luminol in Amanda's room. The short second toe does not match Amanda's second toe, which is much longer. If Amanda did not make it, who did? It is difficult to see how it could have been made after the murder (who else would be barefoot in Amanda's room). If it was made earlier, then it is unlikely to be blood that is causing the reaction with luminol. If that print is not blood, then why must the other ones be made in blood? Three, at least some and probably all of the luminol-positive areas were tested with TMB. The TMB test was negative, and there was no confirmatory test beyond that. Therefore, it is an overinterpretation of the data to assume that the any of the luminol-positive prints were made in blood.

what else could they have been made in? Fruit juice? Bleach? the only plausible answer it was blood b/c there was a lot of the victim's blood in the house.

 

[DrTesla]

I don't care who heard what when, ten is too late. Rudy said the scream was 9.20, didn't he?

I'm not a friend of Amanda. I'm a scientist. It's really quite tedious the way these lawyers don't seem able to get their brains round the simple fact of the post mortem findings and their implications.

Rolfe.

you guys keep citing rudy, you know he accused both of them of the murder, right?

you have two different witnesses talk about a horrible scream in the 11 clock hour, which would mean the victim was still alive at that point. Do you want to argue that they didn't hear the scream, or the scream was from somebody else? think about the probablility of that. you are a scientist.