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Elbe Trackway

It's all theatre. All of it. The prankers got punked. The ghost house operators got spooked by a bloke in a bedsheet.
 
rockinkt said:
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(Note: I'm not saying Tontar is innocent in all this - I'm just saying that there is not enough evidence to convince me he is definitely the one. Unless - of course - he doesn't keep his mouth shut!) ;)
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Óðinn said:
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What does your gut tell you Rock? Are you dubious?
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Please note my previous post.

There is circumstantial evidence that links Tontar to the ISP address and therefore to the emails.
It is not the smoking gun as there is a possiblity (not likely IMHO) that someone else - unknown to him - may have sent the messages from his computer.
Like I posted earlier - his post sounded like a ready made excuse when he brought up his interesting house-hold situation.

Most importantly - I do not believe that there is any evidence that actually places him on the scene at the time the tracks were made.
Without further evidence - I would not have enough to charge him.

However, I certainly would consider him a person of interest.

Gut feeling??? Why do you think I told him to keep his mouth shut? :D
 
It has not been provEN (grammar and pronunciation are different things) to my satisfaction that Tontar was directly responsible for the Elbe trackway, but he's the only "suspect" I have in mind right now. If the emails are traceable to his home, then I find it more parsimonious that he sent them than that he's some kind Great Gatsby with wi-fi and that one of his many guests sent them.
 
Let's see, Tontar got banned for being KK's "I've found the patty suit" sidekick? No, can't be, KK left bigfootery and didn't spill the beans to Tontar.

Hmmm, Tontar got banned because the BFF blames him for making the Elbe trackway that fooled the "experts" for a time?

If Tontar got banned for making the Elbe trackway I salute him.

The Elbe trackway exposed the so called experts for what they are.
 
OntarioSquatch said:
The number of avid PGF skeptics that happen to be hoaxers never ceases to amaze me.
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How many?

I've never hoaxed anything related to bigfoot, for the record.

I think Elbe might be the first I've heard of a possible good skeptic hoax since the beginnings of bigfoot.

As far as I can recall at the moment, nearly all of the bigfoot "evidence" I have come across has been found or photographed by believers.

The exception being Ray Wallace, who continues to successfully fool the best of them to this day. His effect was big, but his share of evidence is small.

Much of the hoaxing, I think, is done to perpetuate the myth and the revenue stream, and it's believers who need that.
 
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Drewbot said:
Tontar why did you get banned at BFF?
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I was banned from the BFF because they believed there was sufficient evidence to connect me in some way with the Elbe trackway. The two primary reasons given were the IP address connection, as well as the word "from" being incorrectly typed as "form", for example instead of typing "it came from over there...", it would accidentally be typed as "it came form over there..."

Additionally, it was my unwillingness to "cooperate" with the proceedings that was very problematic. I would not "cooperate", meaning I would not discuss what I knew or did not know about the whole Elbe event. I would not say who was involved, whether it was me, or me and someone else, or someone else doing it and me knowing about it, stuff like that. I would not cooperate.

It was also pointed out to me that I did not value my BFF membership enough to come clean. They were correct about that. Life goes on quite well, and without much of a missed step without BFF membership, I have found. In fact, I have found being banned to be a blessing in disguise. That monkey is no longer on my back, no pun intended. Although it's a good pun. :-)

It's always been my suspicion, and now since the Elbe deal it's been confirmed to me many times over, that the biggest hoaxers in the bigfoot world are those on the inside, supposedly believers. And even more so, those that have something to gain, whether it be the guy who can directly benefit either financially, or through peer status increasing, or through bigfoot research trips for pay, or possible TV exposure, or the guys who might want revenge on their fellow footers, like the disgruntled and disenfranchised and expatriated BFRO pro-kill dude pushed aside because of political or personal differences who might want to stick it to other BFRO members.

I've said it all along, before Elbe, during Elbe (which was a big mistake), and after Elbe; follow the money (or fame). Who stands to really gain by bigfoot evidence being found on a continual basis? While there will be skeptics who will make hoaxes, or innocent jokesters making hoaxes now and then, the vast majority of hoaxes, and the most prominent hoaxes, are made by bigfoot insiders, "believers", whether they actually believe or not.
 
Óðinn said:
Drew do you really think I care that you designate me as a footer? :D

Wow. What more circumstantial evidence do you need? An IP address was tracked and matched to user name "Tontar". He obviously doesn't understand the ramifications of this.

There are very few ISPs that group IP addresses in what is called NAT (Network address translation) anymore. It is now used primarliy over networks for businesses and schools to reduce the number of IPs needed to serve a large number of clients. This means that you and perhaps dozens or hundreds of people are using the exact same IP address.

So does Tontar fit that description? No. I'm confident that if you contacted his ISP that they would tell you that he has a unique/fixed IP address that traces right to his modem. Otherwise, what is his defense? That someone was impersonating him? Right.
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Actually, you're quite wrong. It is very rare for a residential service provider to give static IP addresses to customers. Usually they'll have an IP pool and use what is called a DHCP server to assign them out as needed. On such a pool, your IP address would change pretty frequently.

Tell ya what. Give me the IP address you've got, and I'll check for you. PM me if needs be.
 
Mister Earl said:
Actually, you're quite wrong. It is very rare for a residential service provider to give static IP addresses to customers. Usually they'll have an IP pool and use what is called a DHCP server to assign them out as needed. On such a pool, your IP address would change pretty frequently.

Tell ya what. Give me the IP address you've got, and I'll check for you. PM me if needs be.
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No, I am quite right. The proof is in the pudding. Maybe in your neck of the woods your ISP is dishing out dynamic IPs every time you log on, but that's not the point. This is about MATCHING an IP, which was obviously static over at least 2 events. Otherwise imagine the odds of matching up with a dynamic IP address? Especially if you already have an association to bigfootery. An IP address is like DNA. If you match it, dynamic IP or otherwise, you're it.

I think that Tontar's ISP is likely the same as mine. My IP is static, as long as I am connected. Lots of us don't power down our computers and our IPs remain static, regardless of the service. So all that matters are the odds that the Elbe trackway "reporter" coincidentally matched the IP address of Tontar. Those odds are down right astronomical, ask OJ.

ETA: Mister Earl, you do realize Tontar has essentially conceded to his involvement in the Elbe trackway, don't you? Or else he wants us to think that because he likes that kind of thing. :)
 
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Honestly, who really cares if he did it? He sent me a PM over at the BFF just before he got banned. I never knew who he was until all the nit wits over there starting calling for his blood. We chatted a bit and he still sends me email outside of BFF once in a while. He seems like a nice guy and is very intelligent and articulate.

Did he hoax the trackway? I don't know, have never asked, and could not care less. All the twits at BFF were yelling for his head though pretty loudly. That makes me laugh. They will stand behind someone like Ketchum who leads them on for years, asks for money, links Footery in general to mind speak, and all sorts of other craziness. Or they will support Bipto and Erickson and Meldrum and all the other high priests of Bigfoot BS and never question anything. But one member is alleged to have hoaxed some tracks and boy oh boy, no problem whatsoever in pointing their guns at him firing full bore. Why? Because he challenged so much of their crap. Namely the PGF.
They will gladly accept hoaxes and crap from any number of sources provided they are disguised as "BF research". But as soon as Tontar was even suspected, he was doomed. It was simply their excuse to get rid of a well spoken skeptic.

Everything in Bigfoot is fake, why would one more set of tracks matter that much?


EDIT: LOL, hey Tontar. Didn't see you up thread. I've only begun posting here recently, had no idea you were a member.
 
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The footers rave about Dyer, and get all bent, when a skeptic pulls one over one them?

Probably because the Footers were all looking at each other like "This trackway, y y you made it right?"

"ummm... no, I thought you made it"

"ruh-roh"
 
Óðinn said:
No, I am quite right. The proof is in the pudding. Maybe in your neck of the woods your ISP is dishing out dynamic IPs every time you log on, but that's not the point. This is about MATCHING an IP, which was obviously static over at least 2 events. Otherwise imagine the odds of matching up with a dynamic IP address? Especially if you already have an association to bigfootery. An IP address is like DNA. If you match it, dynamic IP or otherwise, you're it.
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Absurd. Kindly provide evidence that Tontar's ISP doesn't utilize a DHCP server. An IP address is not like DNA. I do not have a server assigning me a new genome every time I wake up and make a phone call. And last? "If you match it, dynamic IP or otherwise, you're it."? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You might as well tell the personal attending the roulette wheel in Vegas that the numbers don't matter so long as the number you picked had the ball in there at some point.

Óðinn said:
I think that Tontar's ISP is likely the same as mine. My IP is static, as long as I am connected. Lots of us don't power down our computers and our IPs remain static, regardless of the service. So all that matters are the odds that the Elbe trackway "reporter" coincidentally matched the IP address of Tontar. Those odds are down right astronomical, ask OJ.
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So you're willing to outright accuse someone based of what you think? Yet again this doesn't address a DHCP server. You say there's none involved. I say, given my work in this field, that it's quite unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. I asked for evidence to show that Tontar's ISP does not use a DHCP server. You have declined.

Óðinn said:
ETA: Mister Earl, you do realize Tontar has essentially conceded to his involvement in the Elbe trackway, don't you? Or else he wants us to think that because he likes that kind of thing. :)
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I think he's toying with you. I think he's intentionally being vague to goad you into this pitchfork-and-torch mentality, even though your evidence is exceedingly tenious. I think he's doing this to further expose footer-logic and the quality of footer-evidence.

I think it's entirely likely he had nothing to do with it, but is intentionally stringing you along because of your willingness to judge on such paltry proof. Not really a surprise with the footer crowd who treats bigfoot as a fact rather than an unsupported myth... but I suppose sometimes it's fun to watch the bats swoop around the belfry.

I ain't gonna stop ya. Swoop to your hearts' content. Just don't get mad at anyone who stops to giggle for a moment when you do.
 
Mister Earl said:
Absurd. Kindly provide evidence that Tontar's ISP doesn't utilize a DHCP server. An IP address is not like DNA. I do not have a server assigning me a new genome every time I wake up and make a phone call. And last? "If you match it, dynamic IP or otherwise, you're it."? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You might as well tell the personal attending the roulette wheel in Vegas that the numbers don't matter so long as the number you picked had the ball in there at some point.


So you're willing to outright accuse someone based of what you think? Yet again this doesn't address a DHCP server. You say there's none involved. I say, given my work in this field, that it's quite unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. I asked for evidence to show that Tontar's ISP does not use a DHCP server. You have declined.


I think he's toying with you. I think he's intentionally being vague to goad you into this pitchfork-and-torch mentality, even though your evidence is exceedingly tenious. I think he's doing this to further expose footer-logic and the quality of footer-evidence.

I think it's entirely likely he had nothing to do with it, but is intentionally stringing you along because of your willingness to judge on such paltry proof. Not really a surprise with the footer crowd who treats bigfoot as a fact rather than an unsupported myth... but I suppose sometimes it's fun to watch the bats swoop around the belfry.

I ain't gonna stop ya. Swoop to your hearts' content. Just don't get mad at anyone who stops to giggle for a moment when you do.
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So you think that someone who reported the Elbe trackway was coincidently assigned the same IP address as Tontar? Who's absurd? You need to get up to speed on this one.
 
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Óðinn said:
So you think that someone who reported the Elbe trackway was coincidently assigned the same IP address as Tontar? Who's absurd? You need to get up to speed on this one.
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I'm saying it's a possibility, and you refuse to even consider it as a possibility. I suggested you investigate further and stated reasons why, and you refused.

That is why I am a skeptic and you are a believer. I look at the evidence and make a decision based on that evidence. You pick a favored result and don't question what you can find to support it, and refuse to look at something that might cast a shadow of doubt on it.

That is the difference between skepticism and pseudoscience.

#EDIT: Also why the rest of us are pretty darned sure you're not gonna find the monkey. :)
 
Your problem is you are acting like a defense lawyer, not a skeptic. You seem to think the Elbe hoaxer is just a misunderstood good ole boy. A skeptical prankster, maybe like yourself. You probably think those fellers that are writing computer viruses are just misunderstood too. And how does pseudoscience enter into this? I never said a matching IP was proof. And I never said I was a believer. I'm sure Tontar is a fine fellow as far as hoaxers go. I just know when the evidence is insurmountable. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.
 
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