Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

I know you're a bit a touchy about female stereotyping and pejoratives MaryH, but I think with someone like Randy in full, incandescant-with-rage flow you'll have to cut him some slack, especially given that he's probably our generation, and hasn't quite managed to un-learn his political-incorrectness.

You would not believe the slack I have cut him.

ETA: I have nothing personal against Randy. He has been very nice to me, which I appreciate.

 

[acbytesla]

Do we really need to have this conversation? Anyone who is pro-guilt, whether male or female, and there are plenty of both, has issues with Amanda (and with Raffaele).


Which leaves the rest of the most hateful of the PGP, who are men.


All of the same can be said for pro-guilt men. As for subconscious workings, I'm sure there are many among the PIP, as well.

The danger Bri1 and I were protesting (and I do appreciate the fact that you picked up on my protest, which may have been overly subtle), is this, which Bri1 put so very well:

You are displaying exactly the kind of thinking about female jealousy that was displayed by the prosecution in trying to create a motive.

It may be true that some of the women who hated and resented Amanda felt that way because they were jealous of her, or thought they were jealous of her. If you are raised in a patriarchal culture that upholds beliefs about women being jealous of one another, then your feelings and behavior are likely to follow. It's important to keep in mind, though, that these are cultural beliefs, and that men and women are not necessarily naturally competitive or jealous of one another.

From what I have seen, both Barbie and Andrea are likely to have reasons for being pro-guilt other than concerns about someone else's sexuality, youth or beauty, which were the stereotypes evoked by the original comment. There is stronger evidence, for example, that many of the PGP resent Amanda and Raffaele for what they wrongly perceive as economic or social privilege.


I'm 100% with you on that one.

I have to agree with you Mary on this 100%. Women who are tough are labeled bitches. When a woman gets angry, I think it appears to be more out of character for the female psyche that it stands out.

Still when women go after one another there always seems to be something visceral about it that really surprises me.

But I have also seen countless men with misogynist attitudes. I can't tell you how some men absolutely hate to see women on a golf course for example. (I use to be a very very avid golfer) I know men who might like women for carnal purposes..but really don't like women. Something I think is very strange.

Far too many women get labeled.

 

[Malkmus]

Delete.

 

[RandyN]

Well, now we know how tortured whores write. Do you have a collection of their books, Randy?

Sorry I captured you with the tag lines, but then lost you to the whole point.
Besides I don't consider that either wrote a book...you are free to disagree.

Did you miss me calling Follian a whore?

Do you think I actually feel that slanted against women? Or that I actually think that every Italian in the world is stupid? If you knew my last name you would laugh.

Sorry my writing appears to not provoke any thought with you. It failed to hit the mark. That is my fault but I think it is you and Bri1 who are the guilty ones. Rushing instantly to the prejudice and right past the point.

Supernaut...I am older and grumpy. I rarely speak anything but the unvarnished truth...as I see it. I am often wrong. And I am just as often right.

For this case of malicious prosecution...I am right and I have no doubt in my mind about that. And I can quote 100's of examples that would lead one to the conclusion that the prosecution and police had no case and in fact used tricks, false witnesses, and innuendo to make the whole case. Mignini also used corrupt sub-cases to throttle opponents. This more than anything is contemptible abuse of power. Something that should have no place in any position where so much power has been granted.

I stand by writing that Vogt, Nedeau, and Follian are whores. They are also liars. Pisa seems to be a redeemed whore. Thats why I felt no need to mention him.


Grinder I agree that Amanda needs to answer questions better. Dont fall into the trap about changing stories. RS said he could not be sure what Amanda did while he was asleep...I bet he even said that with some sarcasm in his voice...but if he had been provided his legally required lawyer he certainly would have been advised and reminded that no...he is a light sleeper and would instantly awaken if Amanda even got up to use the bathroom...and he probably would not have shot her like Oscar P did to his GF.

She is questioned about and asked to explain why a brainwashed (thats what they use to call it) person does or says what they say and do. Like asking a sleeping person to explain a dream and what it means...

Is she sure she named Lumumba? How can she be sure? Brainwashed people have been studied and magician de-bunkers have demonstrated how easy it is to get someone to admit killing another even though nothing of the sort ever happened...If you demand it I will search out the guy who does this...a Brit if I recall...goes around tricking and revealing all sorts of mental and magical phenomena...

Its time AK and RS start telling the truth about the interrogation. About the "lies". No real changing alibi...just a police parlor trick. And a screaming frightened girl and young man being threatened to be beat to a bloody pulp. I think there is evidence enough to show both are highly likely to be true. And if there are screams how much of a leap is it to think there were rabbit hits to the back of the head as well...Oh then we have Lumumba another case whore. Perhaps he was forced to become a whore by a police "gun" held to his head...he clearly remains in the business today...gun or no.

 

[Supernaut]

You would not believe the slack I have cut him.

ETA: I have nothing personal against Randy. He has been very nice to me, which I appreciate.

I know, I know.

Personally, I'm less sensitised to it (ETA >> "it" being tacit contempt for women by men, vice versa, and other prejudices) - I find real 'hatred' or bigotry is more subtly implied in what people do and say (ETA >> which is to say, more carefully disguised).

Besides which, if one really wants express contempt for a particular individual, it's actually pretty hard to find "gender-neutral" epithets to use, despite the continous re-defining of which ideas and words are permissable, as our march to an androgyne, mult-kulti utopia continues ever-onward (i can hardly wait).

Nadeau and Vogt are a pair of cruel, small-minded bitches, BTW

 

[Dan O.]

Delete.

I believe I answered that in the post here.

Yes, I believe Amanda and Raffaele were lying about the whole evening that Meredith was killed. They were lying about, smoking a joint, reading a little Potter and generally doing what young people do early in a relationship getting to know each other.

 

[Mary_H]

Sorry I captured you with the tag lines, but then lost you to the whole point.

Apology accepted.

Did you miss me calling Follian a whore?

I did.

Do you think I actually feel that slanted against women?

What you wrote would indicate hard feelings.

Or that I actually think that every Italian in the world is stupid?

No.

If you knew my last name you would laugh.

Is your last name Neapolitan Ice Cream?

Sorry my writing appears to not provoke any thought with you. It failed to hit the mark. That is my fault but I think it is you and Bri1 who are the guilty ones. Rushing instantly to the prejudice and right past the point.<snip>

Your writing provoked a lot of thought with me. Bri1 and I are guilty of hanging on your every word. We couldn't even get past the first two paragraphs without responding. I am pretty sure we already agree with most of the rest of your thinking about the case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

must be getting old

IYes, I believe Amanda and Raffaele were lying about the whole evening that Meredith was killed. They were lying about, smoking a joint, reading a little Potter and generally doing what young people do early in a relationship getting to know each other.

I had to read it twice.

 

[Mary_H]

I know, I know.

Personally, I'm less sensitised to it (ETA >> "it" being tacit contempt for women by men, vice versa, and other prejudices) - I find real 'hatred' or bigotry is more subtly implied in what people do and say (ETA >> which is to say, more carefully disguised).

Besides which, if one really wants express contempt for a particular individual, it's actually pretty hard to find "gender-neutral" epithets to use, despite the continous re-defining of which ideas and words are permissable, as our march to an androgyne, mult-kulti utopia continues ever-onward (i can hardly wait).

Nadeau and Vogt are a pair of cruel, small-minded bitches, BTW

Gender-neutral epithets may be hard to find, but I have faith that you can find them, darling Supernaut (for whom I have never felt anything other than admiration and respect).

The overriding point, though, is that however a society is set up, it is always more harmful to insult the less powerful than the more powerful. The exact same insult has completely different meanings depending on one's class.

 

[anglolawyer]

Its time AK and RS start telling the truth about the interrogation. About the "lies". No real changing alibi...just a police parlor trick. And a screaming frightened girl and young man being threatened to be beat to a bloody pulp. I think there is evidence enough to show both are highly likely to be true. And if there are screams how much of a leap is it to think there were rabbit hits to the back of the head as well...Oh then we have Lumumba another case whore. Perhaps he was forced to become a whore by a police "gun" held to his head...he clearly remains in the business today...gun or no.

You commit petitio principii here. No greater crime is known to man, as the SC recently affirmed. You assume they know the truth in the first place. I doubt that they do and regard their recollections as mere vague approximations. There is a danger in people expecting them to have total or near total recall of this episode that they succumb to the pressure of not being able to say they don't remember.

 

[GreyFox]

@ bolint,
They said.....Exactly what the police told them to say ! So stop blaming these two victims for repeating what the police insisted on them saying. If Rita was slappin on me I'd confessed I did it too (for the time being).Only they said to blame lumumba.For Raf it was ...well did you see what she was doing while you were sleeping? wink wink. It's like saying the rape victim was asking for it.
Now the police are victims too. Of themselves!!! And it's people in here that are never going away until they own up for this corruption and put Rudy Guedes ass behind bars for good in a cell next to uncle Chester,errr, Mignini!

 

[codyjuneau]

.......

Frankly, it is downright stupid not to believe that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent of this crime. There is NO MOTIVE, there is NO HISTORY OF VIOLENCE, there is NO HISTORY OF PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS and there wasn't a LONG RELATIONSHIP between Amanda and Raffaele. (7 days). And there is NO CONNECTION TO RUDY... NO EMAILS...NO TEXTS...NO PHONE CALLS....EVER...EVER....EVER.

Rudy the killer, the burglar...the guy who pulled a knife on Christian Tremantano while he was robbing his place, the guy caught days before red handed having broken into the Nursery in Milan..where the first thing he took was KNIFE. And he had in his possession the laptop stolen during a burglary at a law firm in Perugia as well as a woman's gold watch very much like the one stolen during a burglary from Rudy's neighbor's home where the burglar also ACTUALLY SET FIRE to the HOME.

YET, this scumbag....managed to be able to walk into Amanda and Raffaele's trial and say that Amanda was at the cottage during the murder...even though that contradicted his own words during the Skype call to his friend Giaccomo. This piece of pond scum who will probably be out of prison before this absurd farce is over.

Yes, and only made possible because Mignini and his Minions rushed to judgement before the evidence incriminating Rudy had been analysed. Then to save egos, the M&Ms tried to sandwich Raffaele and Amanda into Rudy's crime by inventing an Amanda that did not exist. An Amanda never seen by anyone before or since. An Amanda so powerful, so evil and bewitching, she could manipulate her new boyfriend, and a streetwise knife wielding virtual stranger cat burglar, to sexually assault and murder her friend and room-mate Meredith ... for no particular reason.

And of course, Rudy took advantage of it.

Rudy having Mignini as his surrogate lawyer ...... priceless .... to Rudy.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, and only made possible because Mignini and his Minions rushed to judgement before the evidence incriminating Rudy had been analysed. Then to save egos, the M&Ms tried to sandwich Raffaele and Amanda into Rudy's crime by inventing an Amanda that did not exist. An Amanda never seen by anyone before or since. An Amanda so powerful, so evil and bewitching, she could manipulate her new boyfriend, and a streetwise knife wielding virtual stranger cat burglar, to sexually assault and murder her friend and room-mate Meredith ... for no particular reason.

And of course, Rudy took advantage of it.

Rudy having Mignini as his surrogate lawyer ...... priceless .... to Rudy.

Can you imagine how the conversation went with Rudy when they were asking him to testify in Amanda and Raffaele's trial?

"Look..just cooperate and say you saw Amanda at the cottage during the murder..don't say you did it.. and we'll make sure your sentence will be light. You'll get 15 years but you'll be out in 6. Otherwise you'll be in jail until your 60 years old. Well make damn sure you'll die in prison if you don't do this."

 

[Dan O.]

Can you imagine how the conversation went with Rudy when they were asking him to testify in Amanda and Raffaele's trial?

"Look..just cooperate and say you saw Amanda at the cottage during the murder..don't say you did it.. and we'll make sure your sentence will be light. You'll get 15 years but you'll be out in 6. Otherwise you'll be in jail until your 60 years old. Well make damn sure you'll die in prison if you don't do this."

I don't really think that's the way Mignini works. In Italy, despite his charm, he is bound to have made an enemy here or there. So to blatantly solicit such corruption would be an invitation for retaliation by recording the process.

Mignini's process would be more subtle. He would work on the shadows of the memory, dropping suggestions in the guise of questions: "did you happen to look out the window and see anyone? Perhaps just a shape?" Over the course of several interviews, these seeds will take root and begin to grow on their own. The subject may not be aware that they are being manipulated and will often view these as their own repressed memories.

Mignini's subject are not all suspects. I believe he manipulated the memories of the forensics teem too. He needed to solidify the staged breakin theory and without physical documentation, he used implanted memories in the forensics team to support the conclusion he wanted to present. With the forensic team, it is easy to get them to accept the ideas. Especially if they are presented in the form of "if you didn't do this you weren't doing your job".

Another manipulated memory is that of the postal inspector who swore in court that he didn't enter the room. Who isn't going to first verify that there's not a living person under that duvet in desperate need of medical assistance first?

 

[acbytesla]

I don't really think that's the way Mignini works. In Italy, despite his charm, he is bound to have made an enemy here or there. So to blatantly solicit such corruption would be an invitation for retaliation by recording the process.

I don't think it was that blunt either...but I'm sure the message was conveyed in a round about way and probably over multiple visits ..."play ball or else".

 

[RandyN]

Apology accepted.


snip

Is your last name Neapolitan Ice Cream?

close...

Perhaps you sense a bit of resentment in me as being the last minority (white males) that are freely ridiculed and for which open season seems to be for any level of stereotyping in this all too political correct world.

Or maybe I really could give a rats petuidy...I have a couple of Ex-wives who may side with you but they still love me for some strange reason. Maybe its pity.

Listen, I could have stripped the facts bare and made a strong case...especially against Nadeau...who had a hard time making a sentence that did not refer to sex or depravity. In fact she holds the record as the sole reporter of Kerchers sexual experiments as well as her Brazilian styling.

Really? Really really.

You will find me honestly fair to women. No hate and not close to being some male chauvinist pig. In fact I lived a good portion of my life in a household with 3 women and me. Went into the store to purchase Kotex for the 16 year old who was too embarrassed to do so one early morning when everyone was running late and the cupboard was bare...no hero, just a guy who tries his best and often fails...

I happen to find Nadeau and Vogt particular holder on'ers who have done little to present a balanced view of the facts which they certainly must be aware of. Nadeau does it to sell her book...which has undergone a name change since she rushed it into print. Vogt? Peggy? Lesbians maybe? LOL...Im kidding...I love lesbians.

I do vent but I often do so because I think the milquetoast attitude to this injustice is part of what has allowed it to have a life for so long. Rather than the gross, corrupt, almost silly case that is presented ...they expect the world to give the prosecution case some credit... I cant do that. I have studied it from all angles and to this day it is beyond me how anyone can keep a straight face when presenting prosecution points.

Hellmann and Zanetti saw it. But other than those few it appears the Italian judicial system has lined up against logic and even the law. I'm still waiting for a judge to question the prosecution as to why no lawyers were allowed or provided? It is a requirement and an Italian law after all. This type of thing doesn't happen in civilized countries...at least not so blatantly and with the general population somehow ignoring all that.

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men (and women ;-)) to stand by and do nothing."

Evil has already triumphed...Guede will soon be free and somehow... inexplicably... he is barely a footnote of this case.

Is the general population really this stupid? What does Darwin have to say about all this? I remain clueless apparently.

 

[RandyN]

@ bolint,
They said.....Exactly what the police told them to say ! So stop blaming these two victims for repeating what the police insisted on them saying. If Rita was slappin on me I'd confessed I did it too (for the time being).Only they said to blame lumumba.For Raf it was ...well did you see what she was doing while you were sleeping? wink wink. It's like saying the rape victim was asking for it.
Now the police are victims too. Of themselves!!! And it's people in here that are never going away until they own up for this corruption and put Rudy Guedes ass behind bars for good in a cell next to uncle Chester,errr, Mignini!

Lots and lots of women police....just saying.

 

[Dan O.]

I had to read it twice.

That one was intentionally syntactically correct only one way. It's the earlier linked to post that needs to be read twice. I think everybody missed half of it.

 

[acbytesla]

That one was intentionally syntactically correct only one way. It's the earlier linked to post that needs to be read twice. I think everybody missed half of it.

I still don't get it.

 

[RandyN]

You commit petitio principii here. No greater crime is known to man, as the SC recently affirmed. You assume they know the truth in the first place. I doubt that they do and regard their recollections as mere vague approximations. There is a danger in people expecting them to have total or near total recall of this episode that they succumb to the pressure of not being able to say they don't remember.

I don't think my point is begging any question.

There is strong circumstantial evidence that Knox, RS and PL were all subjected to an illegal interrogation. In civilized countries that renders anything discovered by that means to be something withheld as evidence. In Italy apparently anything goes including corporal punishment in order to get what they need or "what they know to be true".

And to stem the certain flood of reminders of the USA behavior at Guantanamo and other black opps CIA facilities....The USA has been brutally attacked and was and is at war. Italy can make no similar claims at least in regards to this case.

I simply suggest that Knox et al start explaining the situation in more clear terms. Not well...I was tired and stressed and hit....and I said the name Lumumba. Fact is she has no way to reasonably know if she ever actually said that name in that context.

Same with RS. How did you know where Knox was while you were asleep?
That is a bull crap question and everyone knows it. No discussion of alibi should go on without that being injected into the context. And plus same thing...made when required lawyers were disallowed...and now we know factually that both AK and RS ask about having lawyers...yet no lawyers were forthcoming...not until the minute before the start of Mattinis hearing.

I'm betting this type of thing gets Italy in trouble with the European Court Of Human Rights all the time. Country with most violations for failure to provide a fair trial. Just under the number of violations for failure to provide a speedy trial. And forget the fact they can hold you for a year without charge. Who gets away with that? Italy? uh huh.