Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[luchog]

Easy answer to the question is that cops have power and privilege which makes them evil incarnate according to A+.

To be fair, there is a long history of police harassment of minorities; and there are places where DWB and similar are still considered valid reasons for stop and search. Even in a relatively liberal town like mine, police harassment and even bashing of GLBTs is an unfortunately far-too-common occurrence, and their treatment of the mentally ill homeless is nothing short of disgraceful. Of course, the city government should be held at least as accountable as the police department, but still....

That said, the far-left attitudes toward authority is far from proportionate, and there are much better ways to deal with the problem than standing on street corners waving signs and shouting equating all police and all police actions, however justified, to "jack-booted thugs" and nazi stormtroopers. Screaming "**** tha police!" is not productive, and only reinforces the Us vs Them attitudes that disrupt and retard actual progress toward reform.

I wonder how they would respond if the cop in question was not part of the old white boy network

Uncle Tom, Oreo, Coconut, Apple, Banana, Race Traitor, Self-Hating... etc... etc....

 

[RandFan]

It's gender-specific, sure. But nobody has said that it isn't. The specific charge against the term was that it was misogynistic, as clarified by Zeitgueist in his/her second post in the linked thread. And the response to that charge was "it is in no way anti-anyone's-gender".

Good arguments for why it's not have been put forward. Nobody has even attempted to put forward any argument that it is, instead declaring it to be "obvious", and getting into a huff when asked to provide a better argument.

What makes any gender specific term misogynistic?

 

[AlBell]

I've not argued differently. I've simply questioned some assertions made in this thread and have been attempting to get people to substantiate and/or explain the reasoning behind those assertions.

I'd call it opinion based on years of in USA print and later tv commercials where douche and femininity were always juxtaposed.

It apparently means something else to you, who I guess is European.

 

[RebeccaBradley]

Easy answer to the question is that cops have power and privilege which makes them evil incarnate according to A+.

I wonder how they would respond if the cop in question was not part of the old white boy network

This article is a little old - 2002 - but very illuminating on that question, and I doubt if much has changed in the last decade. The journalist set out to interview black cops about racism in police culture:

So I set out to talk to black cops and commanders from eight police departments across the country about why they became policemen and how they view today’s policing controversies. What I found was a bracing commitment to law and order, a resounding rejection of anti-cop propaganda, and a conviction that racial politics are a tragic drag on black progress. The thoroughly mainstream views of these black cops are a reminder that invisible behind the antics of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are many black citizens who share the commonsense values of most Americans.

It's a long article, but worth the read.

 

[Kochanski]

This article is a little old - 2002 - but very illuminating on that question, and I doubt if much has changed in the last decade. The journalist set out to interview black cops about racism in police culture:



It's a long article, but worth the read.

I will have to check out that article.

I live outside the NYC metro area and am frequently in Manhattan, I have to say I see cops of many different ethnicities and female officers too, when I am there. National Guard that are ever present in Penn Station also are diverse.

I know there are still many instances of police harassment of minorities and such, I expect it will take a while still to reduce that. Luchog you are right, the standing on corners and waving signs and shouting is counterproductive.

I was mostly curious how our A+ friends would deal with the issue of cops that are not the old white boy club, will they have to twist themselves into little knots or come up with a special category for them like they do with "brown people's religions"?

The A+ers fascinate me, they want to take a strict good/bad approach to things, but then have to twist around and around whenever there is some sort of exception they need to make.

I think their biggest problem is that they want to simplify things that just can't be simplified. They want an easy answer to problems that are complex and have been around for a long time. They want to claim by fiat the way things should be and just think everyone else should acquiesce and if they don't then those people are bad/wrong/evil insert whatever disparaging, demeaning name they can think of here.

And then there is the way they treat individuals who have found their own ways to deal with the difficulties they encounter in life, which I find very sad indeed. Rather than applaud them for finding ways to deal with their problems and take charge of their lives, they treat them appallingly. I suspect it is because it spoils their pity parties.

In all an interesting but sad thing to watch.

I don't ever intend on invading their safe space, I doubt it would be a safe place for me.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What makes any gender specific term misogynistic?

The same thing that makes anything misogynistic.

 

[RandFan]

The same thing that makes anything misogynistic.

Is that a joke or are you being serious? On the off chance you are being serious, what makes something misogynistic? And I'm serious. Could you put a bit of effort in your answer?

 

[qwints]

This article is a little old - 2002 - but very illuminating on that question, and I doubt if much has changed in the last decade.

An article that quotes a few police officers citing their personal experiences to disparage statistical analysis isn't something I'd expect to be brought up to criticize atheismplus.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is that a joke or are you being serious? On the off chance you are being serious, what makes something misogynistic? And I'm serious. Could you put a bit of effort in your answer?

Read the basket o' links.

 

[Lorentz]

What makes any gender specific term misogynistic?

Patriarchy.

 

[Diogenes]

An article that quotes a few police officers citing their personal experiences to disparage statistical analysis isn't something I'd expect to be brought up to criticize atheismplus.

Even if that were the intent of that post I'd take that over cops=nazi stormtroopers any day of the week.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Divining the meaning behind a pejorative is always difficult, but I am not even sure what the A+ crowd is claiming. It is clear from my lived experience that 99.99% of the people using the term are not feminists thinking about the evils of patriarchy-enforced douching, but are thinking about icky lady bits if anything at all. It has connotations of its own now, so it makes things difficult. Have you ever seen someone rationalise why calling something "gay" in a disparaging way has nothing to do with homos?

Here's a history. Don't know what to conclude from it .

I found this highly read article from Feministe that did the "reclaiming" in response to this critical article that saw it as a sexist term.

What bothers me more than the silliness of the rationale is the idea that it is beneficial to "reclaim" the term.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Here's a history. Don't know what to conclude from it .

Interesting article. Thanks!

The insults douche and douchebag, however, seem to have something to do with gender. Obviously, the physical item to which the word refers is associated with female genitalia. And many of the early epithetical uses refer either to women or to men who behave as women.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Divining the meaning behind a pejorative is always difficult, but I am not even sure what the A+ crowd is claiming. It is clear from my lived experience that 99.99% of the people using the term are not feminists thinking about the evils of patriarchy-enforced douching, but are thinking about icky lady bits if anything at all. It has connotations of its own now, so it makes things difficult. Have you ever seen someone rationalise why calling something "gay" in a disparaging way has nothing to do with homos?

Here's a history. Don't know what to conclude from it .

I found this highly read article from Feministe that did the "reclaiming" in response to this critical article that saw it as a sexist term.

What bothers me more than the silliness of the rationale is the idea that it is beneficial to "reclaim" the term.

See, now... I agree that certain terms can achieve a status in the vernacular that has a totally new meaning. The c-word in England is a great example and calling people dicks is another. I still cannot use the c-word, but hearing it used by Brits I can tell from the usage, tone, etc... that it is not being used in any way as a misogynist slur. Nor is calling someone a dick a misandrist slur.

I simply don't think they've achieved that with "douche". I concur that the majority of the world thinks of it as a vagina cleaning process. I think the A+ crowd does, too but have decided to reclaim it an do a little educational fieldwork at the same time. That's why I referred to it as "newspeak". It's why you need a glossary and basket o' links if you want to run with the big dogs (big bitches?) over there.

It's just as the parallel I drew with Lenny Bruce proposing that **** You should be taken as "Wish You Well, My Friend" because sex is not dirty and is only painted that way by the oppressors! Very funny idea, and I explained it to numerous people who did the old 60s response ("Deep. That's deep.") but somehow it never gained any traction. Who knows? Maybe douche will become accepted in the version they're promoting? I doubt it. I think it's going to go the way of all the N-word rehabilitators' arguments. No where.

 

[RebeccaBradley]

An article that quotes a few police officers citing their personal experiences to disparage statistical analysis isn't something I'd expect to be brought up to criticize atheismplus.

And here I thought personal experience was the very heart and soul of Atheism+. Are you implying that these black police officers' stories are nonsignificant because they do not buy into the evil-racist-cop-white-privilege meme? What happened to listening to minority voices?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Is that a joke or are you being serious? On the off chance you are being serious, what makes something misogynistic? And I'm serious. Could you put a bit of effort in your answer?

I honestly don't understand the point of you asking, and I'm sensing the set-up for some kind of trap. Why don't you explain why you're asking?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Here's a history. Don't know what to conclude from it .

I found this highly read article from Feministe that did the "reclaiming" in response to this critical article that saw it as a sexist term.

Thanks for those. They certainly make the issue far less clear-cut for me.

 

[Myriad]

The concept of "reclaiming" a word hardly applies to continuing to use it as an insult against the same people it was being used against before.

 

[Diogenes]

The concept of "reclaiming" a word hardly applies to continuing to use it as an insult against the same people it was being used against before.

Didn't they start out with "don't be a dick" before switching to "douche"?

I seem to recall defense of "don't be a dick"...

oh, hey, it was in the posting rules, has that changed?

 

[brodski]

On The FTB front, one of my favourite bloggers, Ally Fog who writes the Hetronormative Patriarchy for Men blog (as well as writing for the Guardian, the Independent and the New Statesman from time to time) as been asked to join, and is seriously considering the offer.

Ally identifies as a feminist ally (although refuses to call himself a feminist), but is quite vocal about gender issues which are either exclusively male or overwhelmingly impact on men, and he is quite outspoken about feminisms unwillingness and inability to tackle these issues. It is going to be very interesting to see how he gets on over at FTB, especially as he has a very open comments policy.