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Thanks all for your replies. I'll summarize what I'm hearing from you all:

1. rcronk thinks God exists and is omnipotent and merciful and kind.

2. Horrible stuff happens.

3. If we were omnipotent and kind, we'd stop the horrible stuff from happening - and we're not even close to being perfect.

4. Since God doesn't stop it from happening, He's either a disgusting monster or He doesn't exist.

5. rcronk claims that God doesn't intervene because our eternal progression is more important that our temporary comfort - that our eternal progression is in fact the whole point of our time here on earth. (And rcronk thinks all children and those in need should be taken care of by us.)

6. Yeah... but if we were omnipotent and kind, we'd stop the horrible stuff from happening - and we're not even close to being perfect.

I think we both understand each other's positions and we'll have to agree to disagree for now since the arguments are starting to repeat, but I do thank each one of you for making me think through my beliefs today and I've gotten more insight into them because of you.

What do you actually mean by "our eternal progression," and how is it defined? Does a person who understands eternal progression take this to the next logical step, which would be to give up prayer and stop trying to pretend that God concerns himself with our daily lives, our sexual habits and so forth? I don't think so.

It seems theists want it both ways. Whenever you can't figure something out, or it does not work, it's because God is so far beyond our understanding, but when you have an agenda, God speaks clearly enough. God is only transcendent and unfathomable when things go wrong. If a person truly and genuinely believed that God's concerns are beyond our power to figure out, how would that person's behavior differ from that of an atheist?
 
What do you actually mean by "our eternal progression," and how is it defined? Does a person who understands eternal progression take this to the next logical step, which would be to give up prayer and stop trying to pretend that God concerns himself with our daily lives, our sexual habits and so forth? I don't think so.

It seems theists want it both ways. Whenever you can't figure something out, or it does not work, it's because God is so far beyond our understanding, but when you have an agenda, God speaks clearly enough. God is only transcendent and unfathomable when things go wrong. If a person truly and genuinely believed that God's concerns are beyond our power to figure out, how would that person's behavior differ from that of an atheist?

For me, eternal progression means gaining the capacity to love more, becoming less selfish, more patient, more kind, more respectful, more wise, more happy, etc. I don't follow the rest of your post.
 
For me, eternal progression means gaining the capacity to love more, becoming less selfish, more patient, more kind, more respectful, more wise, more happy, etc. I don't follow the rest of your post.

But none of those are qualities you can realistically assign to the Christian God. So...you're trying to be as little like God as possible? If so, I agree that's a worthwhile persuit!

I appreciate your posts so far, and hope to address some of the other things you've said later tonight or tomorrow.
 
But none of those are qualities you can realistically assign to the Christian God. So...you're trying to be as little like God as possible? If so, I agree that's a worthwhile persuit!

I appreciate your posts so far, and hope to address some of the other things you've said later tonight or tomorrow.

Those are actually, I believe, the exact qualities of the Christian God, but many times only when viewed on an eternal scale, as we've discussed earlier in this thread.
 
Those are actually, I believe, the exact qualities of the Christian God, but many times only when viewed on an eternal scale, as we've discussed earlier in this thread.

Ahhhh...nice loophole, as most of us aren't able to view anything on an eternal scale. I have trouble viewing things in terms of yearly cycles; let alone an eternal scale.

Do you have a ruler or a nifty little template for doing that?
 
Ahhhh...nice loophole, as most of us aren't able to view anything on an eternal scale. I have trouble viewing things in terms of yearly cycles; let alone an eternal scale.

Do you have a ruler or a nifty little template for doing that?

Ok, how about longer scale instead of eternal scale. For example, when I have to pull a sliver out of my kid's finger, they think I'm an evil monster until the next day when their finger feels better and they're better off than when the sliver was in their finger. I had problems with some of the descriptions of God's actions until I became a father and had my kids hate me and think I'm the worst enemy they have when I do things they think are stupid or mean but in the long term are good for them. They are short sighted while I am farsighted and sometimes those two views conflict.
 
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For me, eternal progression means gaining the capacity to love more, becoming less selfish, more patient, more kind, more respectful, more wise, more happy, etc.

You're well on your way!

"An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that deed must be done instead of prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated."
― Madalyn Murray O'Hair
 
Ok, how about longer scale instead of eternal scale. For example, when I have to pull a sliver out of my kid's finger, they think I'm an evil monster until the next day when their finger feels better and they're better off than when the sliver was in their finger. I had problems with some of the descriptions of God's actions until I became a father and had my kids hate me and think I'm the worst enemy they have when I do things they think are stupid or mean but in the long term are good for them. They are short sighted while I am farsighted and sometimes those two views conflict.

Okay; so let's come up with some logical reasons for God's behavior, as measured by a parent who has to make decisions his children doesn't like but he knows is best long-term.

Why did he put the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden if he didn't want people to eat the fruit?

As a parent, do you leave things you know are tempting lying around, and tell your children you will kill punish them if they succumb to temptation?

--Do you leave candy in a dish on the table day after day with standing orders that eating it is a punishable offense? If not candy, how about toys? Or money, matches, valuable breakables, etc?
 
The bottom line is that the world looks exactly as it would if God didn't exist. Someone who chooses to believe in God anyway can always rationalise to their own satisfaction (if not to an atheist's) why God chooses to behave in ways which make his existence indistinguishable from his non-existence, but the simplest and most likely explanation will always be that God doesn't exist. Atheists simply see no good reason for looking for more complicated and unlikely explanations, only the bad reason of wishing that the world was other than it obviously is.
 
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Ok, how about longer scale instead of eternal scale. For example, when I have to pull a sliver out of my kid's finger, they think I'm an evil monster until the next day when their finger feels better and they're better off than when the sliver was in their finger. I had problems with some of the descriptions of God's actions until I became a father and had my kids hate me and think I'm the worst enemy they have when I do things they think are stupid or mean but in the long term are good for them. They are short sighted while I am farsighted and sometimes those two views conflict.

Yes because a sliver in the finger is just like starving to death, right?

Do Christian ever grow up?
 
The bottom line is that the world looks exactly as it would if God didn't exist. Someone who chooses to believe in God anyway can always rationalise to their own satisfaction (if not to an atheist's) why God chooses to behave in ways which make his existence indistinguishable from his non-existence, but the simplest and most likely explanation will always be that God doesn't exist. Atheists simply see no good reason for looking for more complicated and unlikely explanations, only the bad reason of wishing that the world was other than it obviously is.

Christians always use the parent/child analogy, this says a lot more about them than it does about reality.
 
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Yes because a sliver in the finger is just like starving to death, right?

Do Christian ever grow up?

Well, the problem with the splinter analogy is that, according to rcronk's own argument, god WOULDN'T pull the splinter. He'd require the child to do it for himself or another human to do it. If the splinter remained and festered, that would be the failure of mankind, not a lack of benevolence from god. Ultimately, it's in the child's best interest to leave the splinter in, because god is farsighted, and we all can learn something from a festering splinter, even if we can't understand that due to our mortal short sightedness.

That IS the argument, yes?
 
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The same attitude as Helen Keller, I suppose. I have faith that we're more than just evolved hydrogen and we can disagree about that - both with our faith. I've seen depression be caused mostly by the choices of parents and children and the lies they propagate and believe and it's extremely difficult to unlearn those lies so once locked into it, I believe it's no longer a choice to stay depressed. I believe it's also possible for depression to be caused by other things. I'm not a psychologist.

You think depression is a choice? Or that anyone would choose to remain depressed? :confused:

By the way, depression isn't caused "by the choices of parents and children and the lies they propogate".
 
For me, eternal progression means gaining the capacity to love more, becoming less selfish, more patient, more kind, more respectful, more wise, more happy, etc.
I don't understand how your own personal growth can mean eternal progression. Does that mean you believe in reincarnation?
 
For me, eternal progression means gaining the capacity to love more, becoming less selfish, more patient, more kind, more respectful, more wise, more happy, etc. I don't follow the rest of your post.
Those are all fine qualities, and plenty of people I know, both Christian and not, pursue them. But in what way are they eternal and not concerned with the limited lives we who pursue them lead? And what, other than the assumption that there is a God who knows better than we do, does this have to do with questions of evil, suffering, inaccuracy of biblical accounts, or the apparent inability of a miracle-performing god to perform miracles that convince anyone who isn't already convinced?

I'm not sure in what way you don't follow the rest of my post. It is a common trait of theists, and certainly of many mainstream Christians, that God performs miracles and responds to prayer. And yet, as we see over and over again, people who pray die, and miracles are usually invisible, matters of interpretation, or just plain silly. Transubstantiation, Mary on a tortilla crust, last quarter touchdowns. Meanwhile, when an innocent person dies, religious leaders comfort the bereaved with assurances that it's all part of God's complicated plan, and the poor soul who prayed fervently for comfort is being enfolded in the creator's bosom. The answer to failed prayer is often that the person praying did not have enough real faith, but when he dies his faith becomes wonderful and a guarantee of divine preference.

And I repeat the question: if eternal progression is all you say it is, then how does an atheist who behaves accordingly stack up against a Christian who does not? What would your idea of a God do in this case? The usual dodge is that it's a matter of faith, not works. Which is it to be, then?
 
You're well on your way!

"An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that deed must be done instead of prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated."
― Madalyn Murray O'Hair
:)
 
Ok, how about longer scale instead of eternal scale. For example, when I have to pull a sliver out of my kid's finger, they think I'm an evil monster until the next day when their finger feels better and they're better off than when the sliver was in their finger. I had problems with some of the descriptions of God's actions until I became a father and had my kids hate me and think I'm the worst enemy they have when I do things they think are stupid or mean but in the long term are good for them. They are short sighted while I am farsighted and sometimes those two views conflict.
Necassary vs unnecessary suffering. What's accomplished when lots of children in 3rd world nations die of starvation? I find nothing necessary in that. And I'm sorry but I utterly reject the message of Job. Unknown doesn't make it okay.
 
The bottom line is that the world looks exactly as it would if God didn't exist. Someone who chooses to believe in God anyway can always rationalise to their own satisfaction (if not to an atheist's) why God chooses to behave in ways which make his existence indistinguishable from his non-existence, but the simplest and most likely explanation will always be that God doesn't exist. Atheists simply see no good reason for looking for more complicated and unlikely explanations, only the bad reason of wishing that the world was other than it obviously is.
This ^^^^ It won't likely change many, if any minds but theists please read this. And bear this in mind. Not all answers from theists on these issues are the same. To put it bluntly, those of us who don't have a belief in god see your answers as ad hoc. An attempt to justify your belief. There is nothing compelling about the fact that theists must appeal to mystery and unknown-sufficient justification.
 
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