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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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From what I can gather, I believe that Jabba's thinking is that the sample was taken from a larger patched area. That is, there must be a sizable area that was patched into the original shroud sometime after 1300 AD

OK, but note that if it were patched after 1300 AD, they would have had to use material that dated to 1300 AD.

This is kind of an important point. If the tested material is ALL patch, then the patch itself must date to 1300 AD.

So when was this patch added? The easiest answer is that it was added in 1300. If you start adding that patch later, now you have to explain where they got the 1300 AD material they used for the patch.

I mean, can you really think that someone in 1500 went to patch the shroud, and found some material that just happened to be 200 years old?

I agree. If the samples were cut entirely from a post-1300 AD patch area, then that patch has gone undetected by the scores of people who have handled and examined the shroud. This is absurd.

I don't know what is more absurd, that, or the fact that despite having this wonderful undetectable patching capability, they subsequently resorted to a lousy, obvious version for the other patches.


As has been repeatedly pointed out by others, such a patch was looked for prior to cutting the samples to verify that the samples would be representative of the entire cloth.

The term "invisible patch" does not mean it cannot be seen. It just means it blends in to the original material to the naked eye. It can be seen from the reverse side and can be detected under microscopic examination. Considering that both of these examinations were done, including an x-ray fluorescence test, the belief that a large patch area actually exists is entirely unfounded.

There is also that, but I was pointing out that just claiming "it's a patch" comes with it implicit assumptions. If it is all one piece, as you seem to think he is claiming, then the PATCH must date to 1300. How does that work?
 
If it is all one piece, as you seem to think he is claiming, then the PATCH must date to 1300. How does that work?




Oh that's easy, the entire shroud is one complete patch, so that it all dates to 1300. That explains why that C14 strip was never visible as a separate patch! Because it was not separate, the whole thing is from 1300!!

Ahh, wait a minute ... isn’t that exactly what the C14 found?

Yep, case solved … the shroud is from 1300AD.
 
...- I admit to holding contradictory suspicions at the same time. I think that I live with a lot of cognitive dissonance.
- I also admit to holding contradictory beliefs at different times -- I change my mind a lot.
- But, there's nothing wrong with either of those.
- And, I don't admit to holding contradictory beliefs at the same time.

- Are you thinking that I do hold contradictory beliefs at the same time?...

Is this a way of saying you're not going to post up the bases for your idea about patching?
 
Clearly, the only way Jabba's "somehow" explanation works is by appealing to magic.

Let's see how this "somehow" works.

Doctor Who lent the TARDIS to some future textile experts who first went to the 1st century and produced a herringbone weave piece of fabric, (no other 1st century cloth has been found using a herringbone weave, so they couldn't use any old piece of linen which they found in the Golgotha market) which they ensured was used as the burial cloth of a man who was very oddly proportioned with a head that came to an angle at the top, and who resembled mediaeval paintings of Jesus but who looked nothing like any of the itinerant preachers named Yeshua who were preaching their apocalyptic messages at that time. To be on the safe side, they crucified this poor chap and made his blood flow against gravity even after he was dead. Using some miraculous process unknown up to the 21st century, they imprint an image of the not-Yeshua onto the cloth, making it appear to be painted with mediaeval paints, and making sure it's in an anatomically impossible position.

They had to develop and learn a process whereby they could apply a patch of material from a completely different time to this cloth without disturbing either the herringbone weave or the invisible linen banding. Since this process hasn't been known at any time up to and including the 21st century, perhaps they popped forward in time to learn and develop this?

Then they go to the ten year-long discussion about the sampling area, and hear that it's going to be done along one unobtrusive edge.

Having hidden the cloth away between the 1st century when they manufactured it and the 14th century where it is first reported, they now pop back to the 14th century where they weave another piece of cloth, and apply it as a patch onto the shroud cloth just where the samples will be taken, at one unobtrusive edge, ensuring that this patch is invisible not just to the naked eye but also invisible using every late 20th century technique, and ensuring that the patch matches the herringbone weave and invisible linen banding on the original cloth so finely that it is simply impossible to detect it.

Then they need to fake the d'Arcis memo and all the associated evidence of the mediaeval forgery, and can breathe a sigh of relief and head back to the future, leaving the cloth in the custody of the Church.

Where now? Obviously they need to ensure that the actual, obvious patches on the shroud are always nowhere near their Amazing Invisible Patch™ (hereinafter AIP™), and similarly protect that area from the scorching during the fire, and from the molten silver. That probably requires a few more TARDIS trips. Now, this does beg the question of why these magical time travelling textile experts didn't protect the shroud from the fire or the Poor Clares' handiwork, but I digress.

Finally, they let the radiocarbon dating labs do their thing, and are positively delighted to find that their nefarious scheme to bamboozle the faithful of the world has succeeded. Again, this begs the question of motive; if they could time travel to the 1st century, why not just bring back the real burial cloth of the real Jesus if he existed, complete with an authentication sticker? So much more interesting. And if he didn't exist, then they had no need to do all this fakery anyway. If these time travellers had found Jesus going around and doing miracles but had been unethical enough to want to deny this fact, they could just have altered history while they were back in the 1st century, perhaps by destroying any manuscript copies of the NT stories and later on, sending a message to the council of Nicea telling them that the meetings were all cancelled.

So now every rational person believes the shroud to be a mediaeval forgery, whereas really it's a 1st century/14th century/long time in the future forgery! But a few people have seen through them, and they set up STuRP to try to show that they can't be fooled by such evidence as "radiocarbon dating".

And that's what Jabba must mean when he says that "somehow" the AIP™ rendered the radiocarbon dating unreliable.
 
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Clearly, the only way Jabba's "somehow" explanation works is by appealing to magic.

Agatha...

Jabba has admitted to wanting the shroud to be true. If it is true, then it was made by the resurrection (magic event) of jesus (magic being) son of god (super-magic), so it's not exactly surprising that the patch would also work via magic.
 
Agatha...

Jabba has admitted to wanting the shroud to be true. If it is true, then it was made by the resurrection (magic event) of jesus (magic being) son of god (super-magic), so it's not exactly surprising that the patch would also work via magic.
Well there are some shroudies that actually claim that magic resurrection energy created the image and distorted the dating process.

Frankly the time travel scenario is more plausible.
 
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Oh that's easy, the entire shroud is one complete patch, so that it all dates to 1300. That explains why that C14 strip was never visible as a separate patch! Because it was not separate, the whole thing is from 1300!!

Ahh, wait a minute ... isn’t that exactly what the C14 found?

Yep, case solved … the shroud is from 1300AD.

Even better: the obvious crude patches were put in on 1300. Then the rest of the Shroud was replaced in 1301. Easy!
 
...Q - how could all three labs, and all the committee members, Flury Lemberg, Prof Ghiberti, and everyone else since 1973 (inc. STuRP and Ray Rogers himself in 1978), when they were all specifically looking for any such patch in that precise area, all fail to notice that the entire sample cut for C14 was not actually from the shroud at all, but was instead just a piece of cloth from something else entirely?
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba
 
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba

What do you think they were doing when they were deciding which section to take the sample from?
 
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba

Why wouldn't they be looking for a patch, part of their remit was to make sure they got the original materiel and not a patch so they would be remiss in their duty if they didn't look for a patch.
 
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?--- Jabba

Oh.my.god. The bleeding irony.

Jabba, you start showing some sources, and I don't mean next week.

Don't you ever demand or request evidence until you start showing some yourself. Do you hear me?

:eye-poppi
 
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba

Isn't this at best an extraordinarily silly question and at worse an incredibly insulting one? Why do you think they were so careful in choosing the sampling site and stating in the Nature that the sample was away from areas of patching?

How are you doing with YOUR evidence in favor of a patch?
 
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Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba
Hahahahahahahahaha! LOL Hahahahahaha!

No.
 
Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources?
--- Jabba

They have been given.

Are you willing to admit you don't give a rat's backside what we say at this point? That is, after all, the only way to miss the fact that our side has copiously referenced our claims, while you have only Rogers' half-witted attempt to circumvent scientific procedures.
 
They have been given.

Are you willing to admit you don't give a rat's backside what we say at this point? That is, after all, the only way to miss the fact that our side has copiously referenced our claims, while you have only Rogers' half-witted attempt to circumvent scientific procedures.

Legitimate question! Jabba, you appear to have given up any pretense of responding to the evidence that others here have presented and given up on any attempt to provide your own evidence. You are now reduced to asking for sources already made available to you multiple times.

No one expects you to admit that the shroud is a fake, but why not just admit that you've got nothing new and close the discussion?
 
Clearly, the only way Jabba's "somehow" explanation works is by appealing to magic.

Let's see how this "somehow" works.

Doctor Who lent the TARDIS to some future textile experts who first went to the 1st century and produced a herringbone weave piece of fabric, (no other 1st century cloth has been found using a herringbone weave, so they couldn't use any old piece of linen which they found in the Golgotha market) which they ensured was used as the burial cloth of a man who was very oddly proportioned with a head that came to an angle at the top, and who resembled mediaeval paintings of Jesus but who looked nothing like any of the itinerant preachers named Yeshua who were preaching their apocalyptic messages at that time. To be on the safe side, they crucified this poor chap and made his blood flow against gravity even after he was dead. Using some miraculous process unknown up to the 21st century, they imprint an image of the not-Yeshua onto the cloth, making it appear to be painted with mediaeval paints, and making sure it's in an anatomically impossible position.

They had to develop and learn a process whereby they could apply a patch of material from a completely different time to this cloth without disturbing either the herringbone weave or the invisible linen banding. Since this process hasn't been known at any time up to and including the 21st century, perhaps they popped forward in time to learn and develop this?

Then they go to the ten year-long discussion about the sampling area, and hear that it's going to be done along one unobtrusive edge.

Having hidden the cloth away between the 1st century when they manufactured it and the 14th century where it is first reported, they now pop back to the 14th century where they weave another piece of cloth, and apply it as a patch onto the shroud cloth just where the samples will be taken, at one unobtrusive edge, ensuring that this patch is invisible not just to the naked eye but also invisible using every late 20th century technique, and ensuring that the patch matches the herringbone weave and invisible linen banding on the original cloth so finely that it is simply impossible to detect it.

Then they need to fake the d'Arcis memo and all the associated evidence of the mediaeval forgery, and can breathe a sigh of relief and head back to the future, leaving the cloth in the custody of the Church.

Where now? Obviously they need to ensure that the actual, obvious patches on the shroud are always nowhere near their Amazing Invisible Patch™ (hereinafter AIP™), and similarly protect that area from the scorching during the fire, and from the molten silver. That probably requires a few more TARDIS trips. Now, this does beg the question of why these magical time travelling textile experts didn't protect the shroud from the fire or the Poor Clares' handiwork, but I digress.

Finally, they let the radiocarbon dating labs do their thing, and are positively delighted to find that their nefarious scheme to bamboozle the faithful of the world has succeeded. Again, this begs the question of motive; if they could time travel to the 1st century, why not just bring back the real burial cloth of the real Jesus if he existed, complete with an authentication sticker? So much more interesting. And if he didn't exist, then they had no need to do all this fakery anyway. If these time travellers had found Jesus going around and doing miracles but had been unethical enough to want to deny this fact, they could just have altered history while they were back in the 1st century, perhaps by destroying any manuscript copies of the NT stories and later on, sending a message to the council of Nicea telling them that the meetings were all cancelled.

So now every rational person believes the shroud to be a mediaeval forgery, whereas really it's a 1st century/14th century/long time in the future forgery! But a few people have seen through them, and they set up STuRP to try to show that they can't be fooled by such evidence as "radiocarbon dating".

And that's what Jabba must mean when he says that "somehow" the AIP™ rendered the radiocarbon dating unreliable.

This makes sense! And rather than resurrected from the cave, this mis-proportioned "Christ" went time traveling with Dr. Who and K9.
 
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Ian,
- Sounds pretty unlikely that they all could miss such a patch if THEY WERE ALL SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR ONE IN THAT PRECISE AREA. Can I see your sources? ...

Interesting.
Are we to understand this is the evidence Jabba was going to post up?
A query about whether the experts were looking for evidence of patching in THAT PRECISE AREA?

In case anyone's forgotten about it here's Jabba's commitment to posting up that evidence.
Ian,
- My best guess is that they did not measure the wrong date -- not for the (postage stamp of a) sample that they were testing. Somehow, the sample was just not representative of the greater shroud. I'll get to my alleged evidence for that belief as soon as possible.
--- Jabba

As for sources that indicate the sampling team did their job compenetly, here a sampling of posts on the subject.

Did you bother to look?


Not to forget the statements by such experts as Gilbert Raes, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, Franco Testore and Gabriel Vial.
People who, unlike Jabba and the absent JP, have the skills and experience but actually examined the cloth.

Indeed in the preliminary discussions about where to remove the sample for radiocarbon dating Flury-Lemberg pointed out that STURP's initial choice were more likely to be contaminated.


Well he had linked to a few bits, though when examined they either prove to be nonsense, already debunked, wrong, irrelevant or actually contradictory to his claims.
However I feel I should provide references for the statement I've made about various aspects of the radiocarbon dating, therefore here's my reading list:
Tite Turin Shroud; Nature 332, 6164 (1988), p. 482.
Gove Radiocarbon-dating the Shroud; Nature 333, 6169 (1988), p. 110.
Smith Dating the Shroud; Nature 328, 6127 (1987),
Tite Turin Shroud; Nature 327, 6122 (1987), p. 456.
Gove Turin Shroud; Nature 327, 6124 (1987), p. 652.
Dutton Protocols for Turin Shroud; Nature 331, 6152 (1988), p. 108.
Dutton The Shroud of Turin; Nature 332, 6162 (1988), p. 300.
Gove Turin workshop on radiocarbon dating the Turin Shroud; Nuclear Instruments And Methods In Physics Research B29 (1987), pp. 193-195
Harbotle, Heino Carbon dating the Shroud of Turin - A test of recent improvements in the technique;
Schwalbe Isotope measurements and provenance studies of the Turin Shroud;
Both in Archaeological Chemistry IV, (ACS Advances in Chemistry 220)



It'd also be nice if Jabba (one one of the shroudies) actually did the calculations on how much material would need to be introduced, and of what age, to skew the tests. This would show they have some understanding of the process.

It's the bit where they all agree that the area sampled was "well away" from any patching, repair, scorching....

The weave of the shroud is uninterrupted in the sampling area, even down to the invisible to the naked eye (revealed by STuRP) banding on the linen. If you are now claiming that there is some kind of patching which not only matches the visible weave but also matches the invisible linen banding so precisely that there is absolutely no trace of any interruption in either the weave or the banding, then it is up to you to demonstrate a feasible method for this, and to explain why none of the people who have actually examined and handled the shroud can detect any trace of it, even using the most advanced technology possible.

Unless you are appealing to magic, this claim of an invisible patch has been refuted in its entirety. Only someone who is wilfully refusing to accept reality can continue to pursue the idea of an invisible patch, and if you are that person there really is no point in continuing this thread because you are invoking the supernatural as an explanation of a natural and well understood phenomenon (the results of the radiocarbon dating).

You won't find a quote where the scientists state that there is no evidence of invisible space pixies clinging to the hems of the shroud. OMG, did anyone test for invisible space pixies? Maybe that's what threw the dating off!

Seriously, Jabba, let go of this crazy desire of yours for this piece of mediaeval cloth to be something which it is not. Embracing the reality of the 14th century origin of this shroud will not affect your faith, if your faith is actually in Jesus or God. If your faith is not in the Christian God or Jesus, but only in the shroud itself, then let it go for the sake of your sanity. Worshipping a piece of cloth is not the action of a rational human being.
 
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