Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

[RemieV]

Thank You for the perspective also..... I stand corrected. I wasn't able to find whether the others had rectified or not. I have a much better geographical picture now. Do I understand correctly that the white people are in majority (population wise) in all these places?

I understand the legal and constitutional rights of the bigots that enables them to be bigots.

I'm surprised at some comments referring to Australian law being oppressive. (not necessarily any one in particular)
I think our civil liberties are pretty well in order.

Obviously we could do more as a nation to recognise and embrace our native people and their culture, but we're getting there.

In Wilcox County, the white population is 64%, and the black population is 34%. The issue isn't so much that whites are in the majority. You're talking about places that are pretty much in the middle of nowhere; which don't have an influx of people. These were Confederate states - they were slaveowners. There's a fairly decent chance that the people there are descendants of slaves and their slaveowners. That's why you can still find these pockets of racism, and why they are in the rural deep south. As an addition - the schools of this area were only integrated in 1971. As such, the parents of the students - the ones planning the private proms - went to segregated schools. And yet they're turning it around in one generation.

 

[Shiner]

I understand this. I guess it's just sad. I mean we (Australians) were a pretty ugly lot only a century or so ago. I can't really say this (the private party scenario) wouldn't happen in Australia when I think of outback communities. Thing is, the school would have a dance for everyone regardless.

 

[Andy_Ross]

For some reason the US style 'Prom' has started to become popular over here. Shops have sprung up selling 'Prom Dresses' and all the Taxi companies all own a cheezy 'stretched' Limo and horse drawn carriages usualy used for weddings seem to get an outing at these events.

It's become a status thing overnight. Our local school had two girls turning up to the event in a helicopter for effs sake!

They aren't organised by the school, they are held at Guisborough Hall (now a hotel) and are organised by parents.

(that is the local one is at Guisborough Hall, not all the Proms in the country you understand )

 

[Damien Evans]

Just like the private prom is specifically for white students, this private charity is specifically for aboriginals. That they're helping a disadvantaged group doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the argument, or just smileys?

I'm just shocked to think that anyone would compare Aboriginal Australians with White Georgians.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

First, a disclaimer: I've only read about the first half page of this thread, and skimmed the rest of page 1. Apologies if my post suffers for that.

I just want to echo what others have said about freedom having some unpleasant consequences sometimes, but the fact is we must not have these kneejerk reactions and take away freedoms as a result of that. It's like the old saying, defending freedom of speech when it is speech you agree with is meaningless, only when you defend speech you completely disagree with is it meaningful (completely paraphrased.)

This was probably brought up in subsequent pages but everything I'm seeing, particularly from the OP, on page 1 is from the angle that the white kids, the white people... are doing some awful thing to the black people. From what I hear, it sounds like there's a black only party too... and why am I not seeing any framing regarding the black kids excluding the white kids?

I think I know why. In addition to the assumption that this discrimination is exactly the same as some of the vile practices of the past, there's also another underlying set of assumptions... which is that it is some sort of special treat for the black kids to get to be at the white party, but not vice versa. The core assumption is, oh the white party must be the good one... the black kids MUST want to be there, I just know it! No way, no how do the white kids wish to be at the black party though... I just know it, because that's definitely a worse party... probably held in some shack somewhere! A miserable experience! The black kids probably just sit around the whole time wailing in tears, and lamenting the fact that they can't be at the white kids' party...

I'm putting it all in very over the top, silly ways of course... but I do think some of these assumptions are at the core of this entire righteous, politically correct indignation I'm seeing here.

Is it possible, conceivable... imaginable that maybe the black kids enjoy their party? Maybe it's a good or even a better party?

A lot of people have this serious disconnect between the way the world is, and the way they think it should be. I might even agree with them about how it should be... but I prefer to acknowledge how it is.

If you look at the way people naturally seem to live their lives, when given complete freedom of association... it's very telling. We don't have laws requiring that next to every white family's house, there be a black family as their neighbors. Nor do we have enough black families to go around if we wanted that law... as it stands currently, people still have the freedom to move to where they want to. If you look at the behavior, it seems racial clustering is what people often want. We've all heard of "white flight" and this is yet again people framing it as always the white people being the racists... but it's not just socioeconomic considerations or lingering discrimination which accounts for black people tending to live with other black people, asians doing likewise, etc.

There is also that same instinct in every group, to be more comfortable around people more like themselves. Sorry, it's just true. Look at some of the most peaceful and prosperous countries in the world, by ANY metric, and you're going to see a list of some pretty darned homogeneous nations. You may also want to look at how many conflicts have some racial/ethnic/whatever component. It's basically all of them.

I'm not saying people can't live together, they can and there are some good success stories and the US is a great place to find them. It has to be their choice though, and they have to come to it in their own time, and you also have to be okay with them not coming to it at all. That's okay. I thought we liked diversity, after all?

People always frame this as the bad, bad white people are doing something to the blacks or to whoever... there seems to be this fundamental denial of any sort of volition or capacity for bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, whatever... on the part of black people. Maybe this is just the updated, covert form of racism we have today... the racism that a lot of liberals who are utterly convinced they don't have a racist bone in their body, subscribe to completely.

The racism that prevents them from seeing a black person as a racist, or as being intolerant or ignorant because they want to live around other black people... or associate with other black people. No, in the eyes of many that is completely understandable... healthy ethnic pride and love for their people. If a white person does the same? Their white hood must be at the cleaners!

Couldn't that potentially be characterized as a pretty racist assumption? That black people don't rise to the level where they can be bad, bigoted, closed-minded, or just have the same CHOICES that people credit white people as being able to have/do?

And isn't it also sort of racist, potentially, to constantly assume that everyone else is just absolutely clamoring and chomping at the bit to be around white people, to live with them, be friends with them, etc? And if it isn't happening to a sufficient level... then it just must be the racist whites preventing it, somehow?

I know this is a long post and I apologize. I'll wrap it up.

Look, I've seen enough studies to know that people have a biologically-ingrained higher level of affinity for people more closely related to themselves. The most obvious example is family, I think a lesser version extends to race. I know a lot of people hate this with every fiber of their being... but as I said before, I prefer to face reality head on, even when it's ugly, and then formulate my expectations accordingly. It prevents a lot of shock and disappointment.

I believe in complete freedom of association, and not losing our minds when the result of that is not to our liking. Let me leave you with a good article:

The Downside of Diversity: A Harvard political scientist finds that diversity hurts civic life. What happens when a liberal scholar unearths an inconvenient truth? - Boston Globe Newspaper

IT HAS BECOME increasingly popular to speak of racial and ethnic diversity as a civic strength. From multicultural festivals to pronouncements from political leaders, the message is the same: our differences make us stronger.

But a massive new study, based on detailed interviews of nearly 30,000 people across America, has concluded just the opposite. Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings.

 

[fuelair]

Prom is not a gradustion event - though there is a teeny relation in that both occur in the same general time of year. Prom is, btw, short for Promenade.

This description is not bad, though it does not go into depth on prom/cotillion/debutantes balls.

Ooops, left this off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prom

 

[WildCat]

Good point, but it wouldn't be a 'prom' or 'homecoming' party then. Would it?

You can call it whatever you want.

 

[AlBell]

No. I thought I'd been clear on that.

If you called it ' xx High School Formal' or ' xx school dance' as we do over here, you'd find some trouble.

(eta) ..or publicise it in any way as being open only to white people. Invitation or not.

AIUI, this was a guest list provided to the place the dance was being held. Of course only white kids were on the list. Unknown if it was called a school function; no reason why it should have been.

What does Aus do then?

 

[Dancing David]

Proms are put together by prom committees - students and parents.

This^^^, as I recall there is an alternative prom being organised.

 

[StankApe]

first, a disclaimer: I've only read about the first half page of this thread, and skimmed the rest of page 1. Apologies if my post suffers for that.

(snipped for length)

nominated!!!!

 

[torifrog]

AIUI, this was a guest list provided to the place the dance was being held. Of course only white kids were on the list. Unknown if it was called a school function; no reason why it should have been.

What does Aus do then?

I answered that already:

So if you had a party and invited only white people the Australian government would sanction you somehow?

No, not if it was a private party, held by private citizens.

And what makes you think signs were put up that said "White Dance"?

This is the part that gets murky. If it was commonly understood that only white people were welcome amongst the community (in this case the school), and if that signage were put in a place bound by legislation regarding anti-discrimination laws (pretty much any business, government, or charitable organisation), then here a black person could easily take it to the Human Rights Commission ( http://www.humanrights.gov.au/index.htm ) and have it investigated, and would probably win. It's for that reason that schools wouldn't allow any "official" dance posters/flyers be replaced by a private one. In fact, I'm fairly certain private events not sanctioned by schools themselves here are not allowed to be advertised on school grounds at all, to eliminate just such a risk.

(emphasis added)

 

[torifrog]

I think a large part of the problem in this whole thread is that in Australia, organised dances with bands, decorations etc for school-aged kids are about 99% of the time organised, arranged etc by the schools here. In the last 3 years of high school (grades 10-12), dances called "formals" are held, and are completely under the relevant school's aegis.

So really it seems to be arguing apples and oranges regarding the type of prom under discussion.

 

[Shiner]

So really it seems to be arguing apples and oranges regarding the type of prom under discussion.

Yep, that's the realisation I've come to as well.

 

[Shiner]

First, a disclaimer: I've only read about the first half page of this thread, and skimmed the rest of page 1. Apologies if my post suffers for that.

It was a (very) good post, but (mostly) not necessary. I've already acknowledeged what you've said. It was explained quite well in the 4 pages you skipped.

Btw, there is no "black party" as far as I can tell. There is a "white only" party and an unsegregated party, and my understanding is anyone is welcome to the latter.

If you meant to imply that the black people have a right to their own exclusive party, then this is understood. I would think that the black people wouldn't be so shameful as to exclude the asian, hispanic, arab, jew? and whoever else doesn't fit the mold amongst the students at this particular school. This is apparently the case.

 

[RemieV]

It was a (very) good post, but (mostly) not necessary. I've already acknowledeged what you've said. It was explained quite well in the 4 pages you skipped.

Btw, there is no "black party" as far as I can tell. There is a "white only" party and an unsegregated party, and my understanding is anyone is welcome to the latter.

If you meant to imply that the black people have a right to their own exclusive party, then this is understood. I would think that the black people wouldn't be so shameful as to exclude the asian, hispanic, arab, jew? and whoever else doesn't fit the mold amongst the students at this particular school. This is apparently the case.

I'm relatively sure that I read in an article that the parties were colloquially called 'white folks prom' and 'black folks prom' or 'kids' instead of 'folks' or something like that. I am so not sifting through to find that one again.

What was seen in other counties, however, was a white prom that was private, and then the school funded one was 'everybody' but wound up just being black kids.

BTW, talking about them inviting other races? You're going to be hard pressed to come up with many Asian, Jewish, whatever students. These are tiny towns where the population hasn't really changed since the Civil War.

 

[Shiner]

I'm relatively sure that I read in an article that the parties were colloquially called 'white folks prom' and 'black folks prom' or 'kids' instead of 'folks' or something like that. I am so not sifting through to find that one again.

Agreed.

What was seen in other counties, however, was a white prom that was private, and then the school funded one was 'everybody' but wound up just being black kids.

BTW, talking about them inviting other races? You're going to be hard pressed to come up with many Asian, Jewish, whatever students. These are tiny towns where the population hasn't really changed since the Civil War.

Semantics, I know, but 1.6% Latino out of 8600 or so would make a good chance that there's a few students in that 130 people. 0.16% Asian puts that demographic in the questionable. Less for native Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilcox_County,_Georgia#Demographics

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think a large part of the problem in this whole thread is that in Australia, organised dances with bands, decorations etc for school-aged kids are about 99% of the time organised, arranged etc by the schools here. In the last 3 years of high school (grades 10-12), dances called "formals" are held, and are completely under the relevant school's aegis.

So really it seems to be arguing apples and oranges regarding the type of prom under discussion.

And formal dances for such age groups are criminal for anyone else to organize.

 

[torifrog]

And formal dances for such age groups are criminal for anyone else to organize.

Not at all - it just doesn't happen. The only other "formal" dances I know of for the age group (and I've been there and raised two girls through to their twenties - in two different states) are "debutante balls", which are relatively rare, but becoming more widespread, at least in Queensland.

In addition, formal just means "formal dress" here, so no, not criminal at all.

And if you though it meant in relation to alcohol, most grade 12 students in Australia are 18 (legal age for drinking here) at the end of the year - so not illegal on that score either. Regardless of that, school formal locations don't (and aren't allowed) to serve alcohol during the formal, regardless of ID.

 

[AlBell]

I answered that already:

This is the part that gets murky. If it was commonly understood that only white people were welcome amongst the community (in this case the school), and if that signage were put in a place bound by legislation regarding anti-discrimination laws (pretty much any business, government, or charitable organisation), then here a black person could easily take it to the Human Rights Commission ( http://www.humanrights.gov.au/index.htm ) and have it investigated, and would probably win. It's for that reason that schools wouldn't allow any "official" dance posters/flyers be replaced by a private one. In fact, I'm fairly certain private events not sanctioned by schools themselves here are not allowed to be advertised on school grounds at all, to eliminate just such a risk.

No, you didn't answer my question. I'd agree that signs posted in high school mentioning whites only is against US law too, which is something I didn't stipulate nor even find likely.

Thanks, but perhaps you'd care to try again.

 

[torifrog]

Yeah I did answer it; I said "if it was commonly understood ... [in] the community" (that it was only one race welcome), then the school would take down the signs and the HRC would more than likely be contacted.

And in a later post I explained how school dances here differ from private "proms" in the US.

Or perhaps I have misunderstood your question, which was quite wide and ambiguous. If you want to narrow it down, then I might "care to try again".