Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

[Damien Evans]

http://www.aboriginal.org.au/

"The objectives of Aboriginal Benefits Foundation are to promote, provide and carry out activities, facilities and projects for the benefit and welfare of Aboriginal communities throughout Australia and the members of those communities."

Looks like they discriminate against non-aboriginals, and even get tax breaks for it.

You sure you want to go with that comparison?

 

[Shiner]

So inviting only white people to your wedding is legal as long as no one explicitly mentions it? You have a weird country that it is fine to discriminate against people as long as no one talks about it.

Here's two definitions of a word you don't seem to understand.

Definition of discrimination

noun
[mass noun]

1 the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex:

victims of racial discrimination

discrimination against homosexuals

2 recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another:

discrimination between right and wrong

[count noun]:
young children have difficulties in making fine discriminations

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discrimination?q=discrimination


If you get either one right, that will be progress.

 

[Shiner]

Another school, same state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Published: May 21, 2009

...Racially segregated proms have been held in Montgomery County — where about two-thirds of the population is white — almost every year since its schools were integrated in 1971.

Such proms are, by many accounts, longstanding traditions in towns across the rural South, though in recent years a number of communities have successfully pushed for change.

When the actor Morgan Freeman offered to pay for last year’s first-of-its-kind integrated prom at Charleston High School in Mississippi, his home state, the idea was quickly embraced by students — and rejected by a group of white parents, who held a competing “private” prom.

<snip>

The white prom, students say, remains governed by a largely unspoken set of rules about who may come. Black members of the student council say they have asked school administrators about holding a single school-sponsored prom, but that, along with efforts to collaborate with white prom planners, has failed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I realise this is 4 years old, but it shows it's not an isolated thing.

They had an integrated prom in 1995 and "attendance was poor".

 

[RemieV]

Another school, same state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/magazine/24prom-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


I realise this is 4 years old, but it shows it's not an isolated thing.

They had an integrated prom in 1995 and "attendance was poor".

These ARE isolated. You're talking about the rural areas of the deep south. Once again, this is not endemic. It's not even pervasive. I don't know why you continue to post examples of bigotry. Is there a country where there are zero bigots? Are you making a point, here? Is there some new law you have to stop bigotry in its tracks that's actually workable?

 

[Shiner]

* Lots of interesting and educational stuff*

Just wanted to say thanks for the perspective.

 

[Shiner]

These ARE isolated. You're talking about the rural areas of the deep south. Once again, this is not endemic.

Isolated to a region, I do understand it's not endemic. I'm even starting to understand the 'freedom of association' thing.

It's not even pervasive.

People have suggested otherwise in this thread. Are they wrong?

I don't know why you continue to post examples of bigotry. Is there a country where there are zero bigots? Are you making a point, here?

Continue? That one takes my "examples of bigotry" up to a dizzying count of 2. 2 high schools in southern Georgia.

Is there some new law you have to stop bigotry in its tracks that's actually workable?

No. I don't think stopping it in it's tracks is achievable. I do think these schools should be working on the problem much more diligently, and public racism should be illegal. That's just my warped idea of civil rights.

 

[torifrog]

The school does not promote the prom. The students promote the prom, at the school.

In Australia, that wouldn't be allowed UNLESS that "prom" was open to all students equally. If kids put up signs for a "White Dance/Formal", they would be taken down.

And as to aboriginality in Australia: it's a very long and torturous history, and far nastier than the history of Americans and Native Americans, and colour isn't the root of it. It's a different way of looking at and interacting with the world and each other.

I think we are far less "multicultural" here than we pretend we are publicly. I've lived in both the US and Australia (FAR longer in Aus), and the racism here is far more extreme and endemic than I've ever seen in the US - which is probably why we (Australia) have much more specific and limiting laws regarding racism than the US does - because they're far more needed here!

 

[ponderingturtle]

But that's not the issue. The issue here is racial discrimination.

A prom is not a private party. .

This one is

 

[RemieV]

Isolated to a region, I do understand it's not endemic. I'm even starting to understand the 'freedom of association' thing.



People have suggested otherwise in this thread. Are they wrong?



Continue? That one takes my "examples of bigotry" up to a dizzying count of 2. 2 high schools in southern Georgia.



No. I don't think stopping it in it's tracks is achievable. I do think these schools should be working on the problem much more diligently, and public racism should be illegal. That's just my warped idea of civil rights.

Maybe this comes down to a geography issue. "Rural deep south" isn't a "region". You can't draw a circle around it on a map. Wilcox County High School is in Georgia, between Tallahassee, Atlanta, and Columbus - all large cities which do not have this issue. I wasn't able to find number on just the high school at a quick search. The entire county has 1,300 students total (in all grades).

The other one you've mentioned isn't even in Georgia. It's in Mississippi - two states over to the west. Charleston High School has 422 students.

These locations are 538 miles apart.

This is why I'm saying the issue is neither endemic nor pervasive. You're talking about two schools so far apart that it's unlikely the students ever even talked to one another.

The far more likely scenario, here, rather than common racism in the United States, is simply that in areas way off the beaten path where slavery was very common and the population hasn't changed much, some people (not even all) still cling to racial prejudices.

To give you an idea of how uncommon this is, the number of students enrolled in high school in the United States is 13,369,000.

Additionally, continually referring to this as public racism is incorrect. This is understood racism. The signs don't actually say "White Prom" - that's just what it's referred to in conversation between students.

Again, racism sucks and I'm not defending what the students of these two schools have done. But to act like this could even need a law is silly. These are tiny pockets of people in the ass of nowhere. What is going to change things for them isn't law. It's going to be a) having friends that cross racial boundaries and wanting them to be able to participate in the same things you do and b) embarrassment that your peers are so backward-thinking.

 

[RemieV]

Aha - I read your article in full to figure out why you would think Charleston was in Georgia. It actually refers to Montgomery County Georgia as well. So, really, the examples are now up to three. Montgomery County High School is another middle of nowhere example. It's 64 miles from Wilcox County, and once again, there isn't great data on how many student, but at a guess it's probably about the same - maybe 400-500.

So, out of 13.3 million high school students, we've found a problem with 1,500 in two states, and two out of three at least have rectified said problem.

 

[WildCat]

You sure you want to go with that comparison?

Just like the private prom is specifically for white students, this private charity is specifically for aboriginals. That they're helping a disadvantaged group doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

Do you have an actual rebuttal to the argument, or just smileys?

 

[WildCat]

Here's two definitions of a word you don't seem to understand.

Show that you understand.

If you throw a party in Australia and invite only white people, will the government sanction you?

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

 

[WildCat]

In Australia, that wouldn't be allowed UNLESS that "prom" was open to all students equally. If kids put up signs for a "White Dance/Formal", they would be taken down.

So if you had a party and invited only white people the Australian government would sanction you somehow?

And what makes you think signs were put up that said "White Dance"?

 

[torifrog]

So if you had a party and invited only white people the Australian government would sanction you somehow?

No, not if it was a private party, held by private citizens.

And what makes you think signs were put up that said "White Dance"?

This is the part that gets murky. If it was commonly understood that only white people were welcome amongst the community (in this case the school), and if that signage were put in a place bound by legislation regarding anti-discrimination laws (pretty much any business, government, or charitable organisation), then here a black person could easily take it to the Human Rights Commission ( http://www.humanrights.gov.au/index.htm ) and have it investigated, and would probably win. It's for that reason that schools wouldn't allow any "official" dance posters/flyers be replaced by a private one. In fact, I'm fairly certain private events not sanctioned by schools themselves here are not allowed to be advertised on school grounds at all, to eliminate just such a risk.

 

[Accidental Martyr]

I found this story interesting.

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/local/Wilcox-County-Reacts-201347621.html

The grammar and spelling errors in that story are almost as offensive as the segregated prom.

 

[Shiner]

Show that you understand.

If you throw a party in Australia and invite only white people, will the government sanction you?

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

No. I thought I'd been clear on that.

If you called it ' xx High School Formal' or ' xx school dance' as we do over here, you'd find some trouble.

(eta) ..or publicise it in any way as being open only to white people. Invitation or not.

 

[fuelair]

Uh - yes. The KKK is allowed to exist, and to march - just like any other group.

How is this "clinging to 300 y.o ideals"? All it means, functionally, is that we have ugliness in the open and then everyone points and laughs at the ridiculous bigots. What is going to change these kids from Georgia's minds is not disallowing what they're doing, but bringing it into the open and having the rest of the world comment on how ridiculous it is. Look at what the kids are saying. They're saying "the way we do this is embarrassing". The entire rest of the country is looking at them and saying "Wow. Georgia rednecks, huh?"

Also, it is exactly like a private party. Look at the articles and what the girl whose idea this was said. She says that because she was homecoming queen, she expected an invitation to the prom and didn't receive it. That means the prom is not just a "come if you're white" party, but is by actual invitation, bolstering its designation as a private function.

You think that the U.S. is backward because we don't have laws about this? I think it's actually more forward-thinking to not have laws. By and large, we don't need that many laws in order to treat people equally. This is Georgia. It isn't weird for them. The fact that they are self-solving is a good sign.

I would here like to note that as it is by invitation only! Sooooooo they can also leave out the embarrassing white kids: nerds not computer savvy enough to get jocks the really good porn and break censor programs, the kids who are poor or not socially greaceful, the ones who neglect to thank god and jeebus that they are white and not yankees - that stuff!!!!!

 

[Shiner]

Aha - I read your article in full to figure out why you would think Charleston was in Georgia. It actually refers to Montgomery County Georgia as well. So, really, the examples are now up to three. Montgomery County High School is another middle of nowhere example. It's 64 miles from Wilcox County, and once again, there isn't great data on how many student, but at a guess it's probably about the same - maybe 400-500.

So, out of 13.3 million high school students, we've found a problem with 1,500 in two states, and two out of three at least have rectified said problem.

Thank You for the perspective also..... I stand corrected. I wasn't able to find whether the others had rectified or not. I have a much better geographical picture now. Do I understand correctly that the white people are in majority (population wise) in all these places?

I understand the legal and constitutional rights of the bigots that enables them to be bigots.

I'm surprised at some comments referring to Australian law being oppressive. (not necessarily any one in particular)
I think our civil liberties are pretty well in order.

Obviously we could do more as a nation to recognise and embrace our native people and their culture, but we're getting there.

 

[fuelair]

Good post. Very good points, especially the opener.
I don't know a great deal about the regional intracies of the US, but I unnerstan' a fair bit of it. What you're saying (I think) is that to be 'Free' means to be able to discriminate. Logically, that makes sense, and I guess that may be one of the major differences between democracies and republics.



So how are these "private parties" homecoming and prom functions. I understand that the homecoming king and queen are elected by the students on a popularity/looks basis. (these assumptions may be based on movies) And 'prom' is a school term for a graduation function. I don't mean to be antagonistic, and merely seek some informed opinion on the subject. It's a dodge that shouldn't be legal.




Yeah see, I've seen this argument before, in a gun thread I think. I can't/won't try to discredit it. I understand it's a valid representation of the constitution, but I'm glad I don't live there.

It's good that the kids are embarrassed, but they simply shouldn't have to be in a modern civilised society. (IMO)

Prom is not a gradustion event - though there is a teeny relation in that both occur in the same general time of year. Prom is, btw, short for Promenade.

This description is not bad, though it does not go into depth on prom/cotillion/debutantes balls.

 

[Shiner]

I would here like to note that as it is by invitation only! Sooooooo they can also leave out the embarrassing white kids: nerds not computer savvy enough to get jocks the really good porn and break censor programs, the kids who are poor or not socially greaceful, the ones who neglect to thank god and jeebus that they are white and not yankees - that stuff!!!!!

Good point, but it wouldn't be a 'prom' or 'homecoming' party then. Would it?