Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

[DC]

sad to see in the 21th century. Sapiens ? not really

 

[Meadmaker]

FWIW, the following is from a statement from the school:



So it seems they are going to do the right thing while adamantly claiming that they never did the wrong thing.

BTW, the claim was not that the Homecoming King and Queen weren't allowed to be photographed together, but that they were crowned in their segregated Homecoming dances and photos from each of those dances appeared in the yearbook (yes, the King and the Queen were pictured separately since the Queen was not allowed to attend the white-only dance). This was evidence against the claim that the school did not sanction these segregated events.

The fact that the school recognizes King and Queens crowned at these private events belies the claim that, "The school sytem [sic] has no influence over private parties". They certainly could have an influence over segregated parties put on by their students. They could, for example, refuse to allow photos taken there to appear in the school yearbook. They could suspend any students involved in organizing a segregated dance. They could officially sanction integrated dances, as they are now committed to doing. I don't buy their claim that they had no influence over what students are doing in the name of their school.

The word "host" here is a weasel word, IMO.

I would be curious about this whole homecoming thing. First, most of the stories copy each other, or take the same facts, but put a spin on them, so it's hard to say exactly what happened based on the number of stories. Most seem to be reversioning of a few basic facts.

It seems, though, as if they did in fact have a homecoming king and queen, that were recognized by the school. I had read that the dances were private events, but the sources do seem to suggest that there was a homecoming king and queen, and they were accepted and recognized by the school.

The same sources seem to suggest that, somehow, in the recent past, there was a "white homecoming court" and a "black homecoming court", but that this year the school had a single, integrated, homecoming court, but when a black girl and a white boy won, their photos were taken separately for the yearbook.

I don't believe it. That would be kind of like hanging a sign that said "sue me" on the schoolhouse door. I think something got lost in the translation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No-one has argued this. You can't publicly state that you are having a function that excludes people purely on skin colour. It's a common thing in democracies.

Of course you can have a function where you only invite people of a specific race, but you couldn't advertise it in a way that excluded anyone.

So inviting only white people to your wedding is legal as long as no one explicitly mentions it? You have a weird country that it is fine to discriminate against people as long as no one talks about it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

People keep claiming these are by-invitation private parties, but of course, they're not. Tickets are sold to any student of the school of the corresponding race.

So if a church wanted to have some event for its students of the school and sold tickets to fund the event it would have to sell them to all students in the school and not just members of the church?

 

[Mycroft]

The only steps that could really be taken would be... Refusing to allow the school name in prom branding, refusing to allow ticket sales on school grounds, refusing to post signage. But maybe they were doing that already. The articles don't say.

Another thing that could be done is to give them enough media exposure to embarrass them into integrating.

 

[WildCat]

Another thing that could be done is to give them enough media exposure to embarrass them into integrating.

I'd like to know the names of the parents who are funding the segregated prom, and what companies employ them.

 

[Gazpacho]

What? So no school events are "public"? Most football games aren't connected to any identifiable government legislation.

Are you sure about that or just assuming it? If a football game pays money into the school budget, or it operates as a business under the business code, then it is pursuant to government legislation.

I think you're equivocating on the difference between public and private.

Since the law is at issue here, anyone who tries to shift to some other definition than the legal one is equivocating.

 

[Meadmaker]

People keep claiming these are by-invitation private parties, but of course, they're not. Tickets are sold to any student of the school of the corresponding race.

No, that's not how it works. If they did that, there would be an open and shut lawsuit against the hall where the event was held, and that ultimately received the ticket money. It would be a no brainer lawsuit that would make lawyers dance with glee.

What happens is the students and parents have a list of students at the school, and the students know who is black and who is white, and they give a list to the hall. People on that list can attend. People not on the list, can't.

If they were to do it by saying, "Let in all the white people and none of the black people", the banquet facility or hall would be cooperating in the discrimination and they would be sued. If they just get a list of names, they don't have any legal obligation to overturn the discrimination. It's an invitation only party.

 

[AlBell]

I'd like to see more details on this town. Surely there would be white guys with black, asian, indian girlfriends and vice versa. This would be a tricky one to get around, I think. "Yes you can come, but you can't bring your partner."

You can't exclude a person because of skin colour. Anywhere. This is a school function. It involves school students. The fact that it's held off-campus doesn't make it private. I'm sure the entire student and teacher body is fully aware of the hows, whys, whos and whens of the dances.

You miss my point. What does Aus do to ensure private functions invite 'enough' protected class individuals, and determine what is 'enough'?

As to private vs school function in the actual US case I suspect we can agree to disagree.

 

[quadraginta]

Really?

So a privately owned hotel can decide to serve whites only?

And according to all the accounts these are school proms. They're no more "private events" than any other school prom, other than the very weak attempt by the school to claim not to have sanctioned them.

Can a baseball team have a white only day at the ballpark? It's a private entity. Can't it just decide to exclude non-whites and claim that the whites who buy tickets are the only people they invited, and it's their First Amendment right to invite whomever they want?

A public ballpark couldn't have a 'whites only' day. But I don't think there would be any legal avenue to stop some private entity from buying up a block of tickets and passing them along to whomever they chose to. If those people happened to choose all whites I don't think the ballpark would have any legal recourse to prevent that.

Same way with a hotel ballroom. They rent the facility. They don't decide whether the attendees are all white, or all brown, or all Knights of Pythias or Shriners.

I'm not sure they should be able to. That leads right back to the potential for what you are finding fault with ... a public facility choosing which classes of people they will allow in their business.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

No, as they're regulated by anti discrimination laws. However, if they wanted to say, not allow people dressed a certain way, or that drive a certain car, they're welcome to. Private party = John Q Citizen organizing a party.

But that's not the issue. The issue here is racial discrimination.

A prom is not a private party.

Neither is the white-only Homecoming dance. It's a high school dance that doesn't allow non-white students in.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Are you sure about that or just assuming it? If a football game pays money into the school budget, or it operates as a business under the business code, then it is pursuant to government legislation.

OK--with this latest definition, absolutely every economic activity is pursuant to government legislation and is therefore not private. If the kids organizing the whites-only prom buy crepe paper for decoration, they pay sales tax.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

A public ballpark couldn't have a 'whites only' day. But I don't think there would be any legal avenue to stop some private entity from buying up a block of tickets and passing them along to whomever they chose to. If those people happened to choose all whites I don't think the ballpark would have any legal recourse to prevent that.

I understand, but I was responding to the argument that if something is a private entity conducting an event, that the government can't tell it who that entity may or may not allow in. But of course the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed prohibit many private entities from doing just that.

Same way with a hotel ballroom. They rent the facility. They don't decide whether the attendees are all white, or all brown, or all Knights of Pythias or Shriners.

I'm not sure they should be able to. That leads right back to the potential for what you are finding fault with ... a public facility choosing which classes of people they will allow in their business.

Well according to several of the news articles a biracial student was turned away from last year's white-only prom by a police officer.

 

[SezMe]

I'm with you on that Sexme! Those kids deserve a huge amount of respect. I'd buy them a beer.....

See, now you've forced me to change my nic.

 

[Gazpacho]

A prom is not a private party.

You keep saying that and just expecting people to accept it.

They could suspend any students involved in organizing a segregated dance.

Haha, no they couldn't. You're now talking specifically about students whose parents have resources. They'd take that school to the cleaners.

OK--with this latest definition, absolutely every economic activity is pursuant to government legislation and is therefore not private. If the kids organizing the whites-only prom buy crepe paper for decoration, they pay sales tax.

Nope, wrong. Didn't I say it was an ideological distinction? Yet it's one that has the force of law, no matter how much you stomp your foot.

 

[quadraginta]

I understand, but I was responding to the argument that if something is a private entity conducting an event, that the government can't tell it who that entity may or may not allow in. But of course the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed prohibit many private entities from doing just that.

If you actually understand then your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

The Civil Rights Act affected the behavior of private entities that provide public services. A hotel can't refuse to rent facilities for a function to someone because they're black, but they also can't tell those customers who they are allowed to invite to some function.

Well according to several of the news articles a biracial student was turned away from last year's white-only prom by a police officer.

Or someone who was not invited to a private party was turned away. It isn't clear why they needed a police officer to do that. I suspect there is more to that part of the story than we have learned so far.

I don't disagree with the outrage you are expressing, but we can't always craft laws which perfectly prevent all assholeish behavior.

Like I said, I'm not even sure that would be a good idea. I'm more sure that it wouldn't.

 

[triforcharity]

But that's not the issue. The issue here is racial discrimination.

A prom is not a private party.

Neither is the white-only Homecoming dance. It's a high school dance that doesn't allow non-white students in.

I've heard that a few different times. Still doesn't change the fact that it is 100% organized by the students and parents, with no support or funding from the school.

 

[Meadmaker]

A prom is not a private party.

By definition? What I mean is suppose I hold a private party. What will we do at this party? We'll hire a band and dance. Who will I invite? I'll invite some seventeen and eighteen year olds. What's the name of the party? I'll call it "Prom".

Now one may wish to argue about whether or not it is "really" a prom, but that is what has been happening in Wilcox County Georgia for the last 30 years. A group of people have held an invitation only dress up dance for Juniors and Seniors who attend the high school. In fact, there have been two of them every year. In one case, only white students were invited. In the other case, all Juniors and Seniors were invited, but very few white people attended.

So what are those things? Are they really proms, or not? The Superintendent of Schools, in the statement you quoted, said that there were no proms, but there were private parties that the organizers called proms.

In fact, they aren't what people think of as proms, because they aren't school affiliated. However, everyone understands what is going on. They should be called "loophole dances". They were a way of having a whites only prom while obeying the letter of the law, but evading the spirit.

Finally, some local people have said "no", and brought a lot of attention to the neighborhood, and this 30 year old tradition will end, and darned near no one will miss it.

 

[WildCat]

I understand, but I was responding to the argument that if something is a private entity conducting an event, that the government can't tell it who that entity may or may not allow in. But of course the Civil Rights Act of 1964 does indeed prohibit many private entities from doing just that.

The prom/homecoming dances were private events, held by a non-business.

Well according to several of the news articles a biracial student was turned away from last year's white-only prom by a police officer.

Because he/she was biracial, or because they weren't on the guest list?

 

[Meadmaker]

I found this story interesting.

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/local/Wilcox-County-Reacts-201347621.html

I wonder if the city councilman being interviewed understands just how stupid he sounds.



I've been arguing with Joe et. al. about the legal status of these dances, but when it comes to where my actual feelings are, there's no doubt. These segregated affairs are a mark of shame and a throwback to a very bad time. They should be done away with. As for school involvement, legally there is none, but of course what that really means is that they initially facilitated the discrimination, and today they give tacit approval by not fighting it. Fortunately, that's about to change. Now that someone is standing up to the status quo, and national attention is drawn to it, things will change rapidly, and no one will admit that they ever supported segregated dances.

So when it comes to the law, these proms are a lot like KKK rallies. You have to put up with them, but you don't have to like it.