Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Please do provide an argument that Martin lacked the speed and agility to evade George Zimmerman at will, as indicated by his athletic participation, his age, and height and weight, whenever you are ready to do so.

This is called proving a negative. Just admit you were wrong and move on. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[12AX7]

If you prefer "HNIC", or "Grand Poobah", or whatever, this is your prerogative.

By the way, you do know what "HNIC" means, right? Interesting that you use the term here in this discussion.

 

[lionking]

This is obviously a huge diversion from the main topic and I am not saying that just because Trayvon had African ancestry he was a great runner, I merely felt compelled to respond to this "pearl clutching" and "couch fainting" going on in response to batvette mentioning that genetics do play a part in running ability. They do, period.

Of course genetics play a part, but what does this have to do with TM's running ability?

Sounds like racial profiling to me.

 

[Unabogie]

By the way, you do know what "HNIC" means, right? Interesting that you use the term here in this discussion.

Wow.

 

[Rare Truth]

By the way, you do know what "HNIC" means, right? Interesting that you use the term here in this discussion.

I had to look that up.

Wow.

Just wow.

 

[lionking]

Wow.

Indeed. What a disgusting thing to post.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Of course genetics play a part, but what does this have to do with TM's running ability?

Remember that time I said "I am not saying that just because Trayvon had African ancestry he was a great runner" ? Those were the days.

Sounds like racial profiling to me.

Sounds like being realistic about statistical averages, informed by Trayvon's height and build and apparent BMI, as well as his athletic history.

But again, I'm not saying any of this is definitive in any way. Because I don't have to. The time between "he's running" and George getting off the phone with dispatch was more than enough for someone legitimately interested in getting to Brandi Green's to do so multiple times over. Even if they weren't much of a runner.

 

[Unabogie]

Oops. On Hannity, George said he wasn't really running. Who to believe? George, or George?

 

[12AX7]

Wow.

I had to look that up.

Wow.

Just wow.

Indeed. What a disgusting thing to post.

Yeah, the pro-George side keeps doing it to themselves. Rare Truth said it best:

They are their own worst enemy, and yes, they eventually out themselves, full bore.

 

[12AX7]

Oops. On Hannity, George said he wasn't really running. Who to believe? George, or George?

Was this the George with severe ADD/memory problems or the 'just been beaten senseless' George?

You gotta be specific.

 

[Rare Truth]

Oops. On Hannity, George said he wasn't really running. Who to believe? George, or George?

The question must be asked

Who is therealgeorgezimmerman.com. ?

 

[Rare Truth]

Yeah, the pro-George side keeps doing it to themselves. Rare Truth said it best:

For some, much less time than others.


much much

 

[KatieG]

Oops. On Hannity, George said he wasn't really running. Who to believe? George, or George?

That whole interview with Hannity is like endless presents for the prosecution. GZ said so many stupid things, I thought MO'M turned several putrid shades of green.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

By the way, you do know what "HNIC" means, right? Interesting that you use the term here in this discussion.

Wow.

I had to look that up.

Wow.

Just wow.

Indeed. What a disgusting thing to post.

I'm not sure we have this many fainting couches... can you guys double up?

In all seriousness, I had never heard "HNIC" before either. I didn't look it up because I am confident I figured out what it meant just via your reactions.

I admit that when I figured out that's what batvette had said, I had a bit of a "woah, really? ha, wow... he posted that?" moment myself.

I just want to point something out, though. There are a lot of people, even non-black people, these days who use the N word or variants of it in ways which are not intended, at all, to be hurtful or offensive or derogatory. I am not one of them, I avoid that word like the plague, and it makes me uncomfortable.

However, I have seen these types of people before and they are NOT vile racists, or bad people, they are people who exist in a different cultural milieu than many of us do. It might be fair to call it a more blue collar world... hope that's not offensive to batvette. I actually admire blue collar people, a lot. I wish I'd been more of one. Part of why I joined the military some years ago was to get more in touch with that side of myself, to get out of the "ivory tower" and exposed to a more real, immediate world.

That world involves a lot of offensive behaviors and language, and I was as "couch fainty" and "pearl clutchy" as anyone, but thankfully it did harden my skin to it somewhat. Not to the point where I started talking like that, but to the point where it didn't bother me.

If you've seen the comedian Ralphie Mayes, a large very overweight Hispanic comedian... he drops the "N" word a lot. So does someone like Eminem.

Ironically, that's just the thing... it is the non-black people who are most intimately tied to the black community (or at least certain parts of that community) which are most likely to use this term. A big tip off is if they're also someone who is using other slang which is associated with black culture. In other words, they're a non-black person who talks in the way which is stereotypical of "urban black culture" and that INCLUDES variations of the N word. Which are spoken a LOT by the black members of that culture themselves.

So the more urban black friends a non-black person has, the higher the likelihood that they'll use that term and think nothing of it, in my experience.

I happen to think this is also why George Zimmerman chose the MySpace handle that he did. Young, Latino guy who has a lot of black friends and feels at ease around them... tries to sound black, with phrases like "soft *** wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book."

I've seen that sort of thing a lot.

 

[KatieG]

By the way, you do know what "HNIC" means, right? Interesting that you use the term here in this discussion.

Not sure if interesting or trolling. Either way, it's in poor taste at the very least.

 

[Unabogie]

The question must be asked

Who is therealgeorgezimmerman.com. ?

Trayvon wasn't running fast or at all, except if he needs to demonstrate superhuman athletic powers. Then he's in the top two percent of all runners.

 

[12AX7]

I'm not sure we have this many fainting couches... can you guys double up?

In all seriousness, I had never heard "HNIC" before either. I didn't look it up because I am confident I figured out what it meant just via your reactions.

I admit that when I figured out that's what batvette had said, I had a bit of a "woah, really? ha, wow... he posted that?" moment myself.

I just want to point something out, though. There are a lot of people, even non-black people, these days who use the N word or variants of it in ways which are not intended, at all, to be hurtful or offensive or derogatory. I am not one of them, I avoid that word like the plague, and it makes me uncomfortable.

However, I have seen these types of people before and they are NOT vile racists, or bad people, they are people who exist in a different cultural milieu than many of us do. It might be fair to call it a more blue collar world... hope that's not offensive to batvette. I actually admire blue collar people, a lot. I wish I'd been more of one. Part of why I joined the military some years ago was to get more in touch with that side of myself, to get out of the "ivory tower" and exposed to a more real, immediate world.

That world involves a lot of offensive behaviors and language, and I was as "couch fainty" and "pearl clutchy" as anyone, but thankfully it did harden my skin to it somewhat. Not to the point where I started talking like that, but to the point where it didn't bother me.

If you've seen the comedian Ralphie Mayes, a large very overweight Hispanic comedian... he drops the "N" word a lot. So does someone like Eminem.

Ironically, that's just the thing... it is the non-black people who are most intimately tied to the black community (or at least certain parts of that community) which are most likely to use this term. A big tip off is if they're also someone who is using other slang which is associated with black culture. In other words, they're a non-black person who talks in the way which is stereotypical of "urban black culture" and that INCLUDES variations of the N word. Which are spoken a LOT by the black members of that culture themselves.

So the more urban black friends a non-black person has, the higher the likelihood that they'll use that term and think nothing of it, in my experience.

I happen to think this is also why George Zimmerman chose the MySpace handle that he did. Young, Latino guy who has a lot of black friends and feels at ease around them... tries to sound black, with phrases like "soft *** wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book."

I've seen that sort of thing a lot.

Handwaving, excuses and apologetics for a fellow George supporter. I'm stunned.

I live in the south, and have heard the term used many times, and there is no way you can spin this. But please keep trying, it's entertaining to watch.

 

[johnny karate]

What about the risk of getting denied and the publicity/coverage that results?

I look forward to the evidence you provide that demonstrates denial of a motion for dismissal can have a negative impact in how the trial turns out.

Perhaps O'Mara's calculation was that he looked at what was going on, told George he'd never seen something like this before... and was honestly at a loss for why the case had been brought and the only explanations he could come to were along the lines of something being "afoot" and the exact sort of suspicions about motivations and political calculations that George's own brother seems to subscribe to. Perhaps after discussing this with George and telling George straight up "I don't think there's any chance she's going to grant immunity or dismiss in this climate." maybe then they came to the decision not to try those avenues together, with George having final say.

Perhaps George was even the one aggressively pushing to NOT have an immunity hearing or file for dismissal. Perhaps the same sort of mindset which caused him to talk to police endlessly without an attorney, is now making him stubbornly assist (over O'Mara's objections potentially) that he wanted a trial, and wanted all the facts to come out.

For all we know, O'Mara is wrestling against GZ's instincts behind the scenes fighting with him over whether he testifies or not (With GZ potentially insisting he wants to, just as he insisted on getting up on the stand and apologizing to Trayvon's parents, thus opening himself up to cross examination by BDLR) and fighting with him over whether they did an immunity hearing or not.

If GZ is being stubborn and naive in this way, O'Mara would certainly never tell us. It's his job to present a unified front and represent his client in the way his client wishes to be represented. Of course, at a certain point many attorneys would throw their hands up in disgust and walk off the case, but perhaps GZ is threading the needle sufficiently that he is still appeasing O'Mara's desires and instincts on enough matters, trusting his judgement on enough things, that O'Mara tolerates some of that sort of thing from him.

I don't know, this is just speculation but it does seem to fit with the unguarded, endless talking to cops without a lawyer and the "Oh you want me to take an ink blot test too? Sure!" attitude GZ had... where he was even getting ready to drive down to Jacksonville on his own dime to meet the new hit squad that had been brought on expressly to charge him.

Or maybe there are no grounds for dismissal and O'Mara knows that.

Notice how my explanation doesn't require several paragraphs of rambling sophistry.

You keep asking for people to help you understand why they aren't filing these motions, and I obviously don't KNOW but I'm speculating to try to help you out. Of course, I don't really think you're honestly curious I think you're just using rhetorical devices to be annoying.

The reason I keep asking is because I enjoy watching you tie yourself in knots trying to explain something while avoiding the simplest and most straightforward explanation because it conflicts with your predetermined conclusions.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Handwaving, excuses and apologetics for a fellow George supporter. I'm stunned.

I live in the south, and have heard the term used many times, and there is no way you can spin this. But please keep trying, it's entertaining to watch.

Like I said, I hadn't heard it before. Are you saying it is always used in an offensive fashion? Never in jest or affection or friendly contexts?

If you're saying it's always used to be hurtful and offensive, and only said against enemies... then perhaps my apologetics were off the mark.

 

[johnny karate]

Handwaving, excuses and apologetics for a fellow George supporter. I'm stunned.

I live in the south, and have heard the term used many times, and there is no way you can spin this. But please keep trying, it's entertaining to watch.

Yes, one Zimmerman supporter uses a racist term, and another one defends the use of that term.

Shocking.