Racial segregation is legal in the U.S?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Is this what you meant?

And when the school decided to elect only one pair for homecoming queen and king for the first time this school year — mmhmm, homecoming is segregated, too — and one of the integrated prom-organizing students won, she still wasn't allowed to attend the white homecoming. The king and queen took separate pictures for the school yearbook.

My hunch was right. It's really naive to claim the school has not been endorsing the segregated proms, and these haven't really been high school proms but are strictly private parties by invitation only.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Nothing of the sort has been acknowledged. They don't promote it, sell tickets to it, or sanction it in any way. In Wilcox County, there is no official prom.

No photos of these segregated proms appear in the Wilcox County High School Yearbook?

The name "Wilcox County High" doesn't appear in any of the ads or on the tickets sold to these segregated proms? Or if it does, school officials are honestly unaware of it?

No flyers are posted for these proms at the school?

Yeah, right.

The school's claim that it does not sanction the segregated events is a tenuous one at best.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So, if I put together a party, say, an after-game, friday night party, and I invite people I want who pay a fee to attend, even if it's widely known about, it must be supported by the school, thereby not private? I'm confused.

It's a private Prom, organized by students and parents. They're welcome to invite whomever they want. Is it racist to not invite a single black person because you don't want them there? Hell yes. Absolutely disgusting, and something I would never condone nor support, nor would my children be allowed to attend.

Is it LEGAL? Not school sanctioned, not school funded, nothing to do with the school whatsoever. Most likely, 100% legal.

You keep claiming that the party is by invitation only. That's not how proms normally work. I would be surprised if it's the case here.

And you also have to be pretty naive to believe that these events aren't in fact school sanctioned with a wink and a nudge even as they claim not to be.

And I challenge the claim I highlighted. The events are referred to in all these news articles as the high school proms. I would bet money the name "Wilcox County High" appears on tickets, flyers, dance hall decorations, etc. If you consider it an "invitation" that tickets are only available to students of the school (of the appropriate race), then you're pretty much acknowledging that it isn't an event that has "nothing to do with the school whatsoever". These aren't the same thing as an after party. These are the actual dances with election of prom courts, etc. (And of course the homecoming ones are associated with a high school football game, and according to the link Quadraginta posted, photos of both pairs of the segregated Homecoming courts have appeared in the school's yearbook.)

A slightly different story happened in St. Louis County a year or so ago. There began appearing on Youtube videos of a "fight club" named for a local public high school. The fights took place off school property and outside of school hours. School officials had nothing to do with it, but the moment they learned of it and the fact that it was being done by their school students and had their school's name in it, they did all they could to put an end to it.

I would think Wilcox County High should have done everything it could to end segregated proms that were happening in the name of Wilcox County High Prom.

 

[Meadmaker]

No photos of these segregated proms appear in the Wilcox County High School Yearbook?

The name "Wilcox County High" doesn't appear in any of the ads or on the tickets sold to these segregated proms? Or if it does, school officials are honestly unaware of it?

No flyers are posted for these proms at the school?

Yeah, right.

The school's claim that it does not sanction the segregated events is a tenuous one at best.

None. Not one. Nothing. Nada.

And that should be obvious because if they did that, it would be clearly illegal under United States law. You can't do that.

And they don't.




Ok. I will admit that I can't be absolutely 100% certain that that answer is totally correct, because I haven't done a whole lot of research into this particular high school. I have done some research into similar cases in the past, and that's what I found. So, to answer again, but with only what I know, and not what I assume, here we go again.

Yearbooks - No. No mention. I haven't seen the actual yearbook, but the news stories and statements from the Superintendent are quite clear. This is not a school activity. The school has nothing to do with it. It's not on their web page. It's not in their yearbook.

School name appears on tickets - I don't know. The school certainly doesn't print the tickets, if there are printed tickets. I don't know what the venues who host these places publish. Would the school sue the organizers if the organizers were to use the name in publicity? I doubt it. Why would they bother?

Flyers? In the news stories, some reference has been made to students tearing down flyers for the integrated prom, and the integrated prom, this year, is a private party as well. Next year, it's a safe bet that it won't be. I don't know what the school policy is on posting flyers, and it isn't absolutely clear from the stories that the flyers for the integrated prom were on school grounds, or just near the school. At any rate, I'm absolutely clear that they don't specifically allow advertising of a segregated event in such a way as to imply a school endorsement, because if they did so, the lawyers would be on them and the case would take about ten minutes to decide.

 

[triforcharity]

Using the school name, on tickets, is not an endorsement IMPO. I will agree that the WCSB should have taken up this issue a long time ago. However, it's apparently a relatively small school district, and proms and such are not exactly cheap, and their focus seems to be on athletics.

 

[lionking]

Using the school name, on tickets, is not an endorsement IMPO.

I completely disagree. If the school's name turned up in an advertisement or, I don't know, on a porn site, do you see the school shrugging its shoulders and saying "but were not endorsing that, or would they do whatever they could to remove the school name?

No, if the school's name is on the ticket, and they know about it and do nothing, it's an endorsement.

Proms are not private parties. Nothing like them.

 

[332nd]

I'm with you on that Sexme! Those kids deserve a huge amount of respect. I'd buy them a beer.....

Hi, I'm Chris Hansen. Have a seat.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yearbooks - No. No mention. I haven't seen the actual yearbook, but the news stories and statements from the Superintendent are quite clear. This is not a school activity. The school has nothing to do with it. It's not on their web page. It's not in their yearbook.

This is contradicted by the source Quadraginta cited.

I think that was speaking of the segregated Homecoming dances, but it said that previously photos of both the black and white Homecoming Courts were printed in the yearbook. (I bet there were other photos of the events as well.)

Again, I don't think it's enough for the school just to say that these segregated school dances aren't officially recognized by the school.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

However, it's apparently a relatively small school district, and proms and such are not exactly cheap, and their focus seems to be on athletics.

I think most schools pay for the proms pretty much the same way these do: by selling admission tickets. (I'm not sure, but I think when I was a kid, the prom committee got a piece of the action from the official photographer. With good quality digital cameras so cheap, that may be a thing of the past.) In fact, if it were a school event, some money could be saved by having the prom in the school's gym.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Would the school sue the organizers if the organizers were to use the name in publicity? I doubt it. Why would they bother?

Because connecting the school's name with segregated events would damage the school districts reputation and clearly runs contrary to their professed principles. (See above where someone quoted from the school's website.)

In fact, it's the same reason, in part, why Lindbergh High School did everything they could to shut down "Lindbergh Fights". It's bad for their students.

Also, as I've been saying, knowingly allowing their name to be associated with segregated events is arguably tantamount to school endorsement of these events.

 

[WildCat]

In practise aboriginalty only means: "memberships of a private self selecting group that controls admission to its ranks"

Just like the private proms.

 

[WildCat]

This is contradicted by the source Quadraginta cited.

I think that was speaking of the segregated Homecoming dances, but it said that previously photos of both the black and white Homecoming Courts were printed in the yearbook. (I bet there were other photos of the events as well.)

Again, I don't think it's enough for the school just to say that these segregated school dances aren't officially recognized by the school.

You claim it's contradicted then admit it's Homecoming and not prom?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How is that not private?

People keep claiming these are by-invitation private parties, but of course, they're not. Tickets are sold to any student of the school of the corresponding race.

The public/private distinction in US law is a complicated and highly ideological one, but a good starting point is this: An event is public if it is held pursuant to some identifiable government legislation. Otherwise it is private.

What? So no school events are "public"? Most football games aren't connected to any identifiable government legislation.

I think you're equivocating on the difference between public and private. The concern here is whether or not this event is sanctioned by a public school. My position is that just saying it's not officially sanctioned doesn't make it so.

This smacks of grandfather clauses of Jim Crow laws. They didn't specifically say that black people couldn't vote. In fact, people supporting these laws would deny that they have laws prohibiting black people from voting. They'd innocently point out that the law says nothing about race at all--wink wink nudge nudge say no more!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You claim it's contradicted then admit it's Homecoming and not prom?

Oh--so your defense is that the segregated proms are not officially sanctioned school events but the segregated homecoming dances are?

In fact, I think the fact that photos from the segregated homecoming dances were in the school yearbook is evidence that photos from the segregated proms were as well.

It wouldn't make sense otherwise, would it?

ETA: And here's a source that says photos from the segregated proms appeared in the yearbook:

She thought she might get an invite to the other prom, but they went to separate dances, and appear in separate yearbook photos, she said.

ETA: And as I read more of these accounts, I think the two segregated proms don't in fact elect two distinct courts. It sounds like they cooperate on a single election. The stories say that the Prom Queen was black, while the Prom King was white. And photos of each (taken in their separate, segregated proms) appeared in the yearbook.

This story even mentions that the police turned away a bi-racial student from the white prom.

This year, Wilcox County High School in Rochelle, Ga., held racially segregated proms; white students in one, black in the other. A biracial student was turned away, by the police, from trying to enter the white prom.

The king and queen were of two separate races, so they took separate pictures in the yearbook. The queen still wasn’t invited to the exclusively white homecoming.

ETA: OK, it looks as if more of the sources say the Black Queen/White King is from the segregated homecoming dances, but the point is the same. And I still don't see why they would put photos from one set of segregated dances in the yearbook and exclude photos from the other.

Can we at least agree that the school has been guilty of sanctioning the segregated homecoming dances?

And if so, does anyone realistically think they don't treat the proms the same way?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The fact that the school knows about it, is irrelevant. A private event is just that, private. Subject to no segregation laws, as it's private. The government doesn't regulate, and cannot regulate, a private party. It's a 1st Amendment issue.

Really?

So a privately owned hotel can decide to serve whites only?

And according to all the accounts these are school proms. They're no more "private events" than any other school prom, other than the very weak attempt by the school to claim not to have sanctioned them.

Can a baseball team have a white only day at the ballpark? It's a private entity. Can't it just decide to exclude non-whites and claim that the whites who buy tickets are the only people they invited, and it's their First Amendment right to invite whomever they want?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

FWIW, the following is from a statement from the school:

WCHS is much like any other high school, where the homecoming king and queen are chosen by popular vote (and are allowed to have their picture made together, despite published reports to the contrary!). Most discipline problems relate to tardies and matters of the heart, and students see skin color through their parents’ eyes.

Recently the high school has received some negative publicity for hosting segregated proms, but that is simply not true. The high school does not host a prom at all, and groups of students who host private parties have referred to the parties as their proms. The school sytem [sic] has no influence over private parties, but we are encouraged by recent events.

Earlier in this school year, a group of ladies approached the Wilcox County Board of Education and the Superintendent to discuss their plans for hosting an “integrated prom.” The Board and Superintendent not only applauded the idea, but passed a resolution requesting that all activities involving WCS students be inclusive and non-discriminatory.

So it seems they are going to do the right thing while adamantly claiming that they never did the wrong thing.

BTW, the claim was not that the Homecoming King and Queen weren't allowed to be photographed together, but that they were crowned in their segregated Homecoming dances and photos from each of those dances appeared in the yearbook (yes, the King and the Queen were pictured separately since the Queen was not allowed to attend the white-only dance). This was evidence against the claim that the school did not sanction these segregated events.

The fact that the school recognizes King and Queens crowned at these private events belies the claim that, "The school sytem [sic] has no influence over private parties". They certainly could have an influence over segregated parties put on by their students. They could, for example, refuse to allow photos taken there to appear in the school yearbook. They could suspend any students involved in organizing a segregated dance. They could officially sanction integrated dances, as they are now committed to doing. I don't buy their claim that they had no influence over what students are doing in the name of their school.

The word "host" here is a weasel word, IMO.

 

[triforcharity]

I completely disagree. If the school's name turned up in an advertisement or, I don't know, on a porn site, do you see the school shrugging its shoulders and saying "but were not endorsing that, or would they do whatever they could to remove the school name?

No, if the school's name is on the ticket, and they know about it and do nothing, it's an endorsement.

I recently attended a reunion for my high school graduation. On the tickets, appeared the name of the school. However, they had absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Does that mean they supported it or endorsed it? None whatsoever. In fact, we didn't even hold it at the school.

Proms are not private parties. Nothing like them.

Traditionally, no. Traditionally the school puts them together, partially funds them, and supports them with teachers or faculty time. In this specific case, they do not.

 

[triforcharity]

Hi, I'm Chris Hansen. Have a seat.

Oh. My......

"He said he was 18!!! I swear!!"


Sezme, sorry about coming on to you like that! My bad....

 

[triforcharity]

I think most schools pay for the proms pretty much the same way these do: by selling admission tickets.

Correct. Though, even with admission being charged, sometimes that is not enough. For instance, my high school ended up losing money (meaning the cost of admission did not cover the expenses) on both homecoming and prom my senior year.

(I'm not sure, but I think when I was a kid, the prom committee got a piece of the action from the official photographer. With good quality digital cameras so cheap, that may be a thing of the past.)

I'm not sure what you mean.

In fact, if it were a school event, some money could be saved by having the prom in the school's gym.

Absolutely. And for smaller school such as this one, it would be more than sufficient in size. Mine, not so much.

 

[triforcharity]

Really?

So a privately owned hotel can decide to serve whites only?

And according to all the accounts these are school proms. They're no more "private events" than any other school prom, other than the very weak attempt by the school to claim not to have sanctioned them.

Can a baseball team have a white only day at the ballpark? It's a private entity. Can't it just decide to exclude non-whites and claim that the whites who buy tickets are the only people they invited, and it's their First Amendment right to invite whomever they want?

No, as they're regulated by anti discrimination laws. However, if they wanted to say, not allow people dressed a certain way, or that drive a certain car, they're welcome to. Private party = John Q Citizen organizing a party.