Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Mumbles]

Btw, I have an open question to anyone who believes George Zimmerman is guilty of murder 2. I'd really appreciate as many of you who fall in that category as possible answering this. Because I'm honestly not sure I understand...

Can you explain to me what it is you think happened after George got out of his truck, up to the point the gun goes off, and why it is murder?

What I suspect happened is that:

Martin runs from Twin Trees to the pathway, and then stops. Zimmerman runs from the west side of Twin Trees to the East end, and pauses to turn on his flashlight - and concludes his non emergency call.

Zimmerman then moved from Twin Trees Lane to the pathway between two rows of houses, and spots Martin.

Martin asks "Why are you following me?"

Zimmerman replies hostilely, and approaches.

Zimmerman *may* have attempted to detain Martin at this point, or Martin, in fear, may have hit Zimmerman.

Regardless, a fight ensued, Martin got the upper hand, and Zimmerman then shot Martin.

For reference, I'm not certain that Murder 2 is the correct charge in this case. I'm not a legal expert, but it seems to be a bit too far to me. A manslaughter charge does seem reasonable to me, though.

 

[Rare Truth]

He didn't use the word "circling" within the call itself, but he describes TM coming toward his car, looking at him, checking him out, and motioning with his waistband. I believe this is when the circling takes place.

At the walk-through:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] 2/27R, 3:46-4:03:

And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything, but he had his hand in his waistband. And I, I, I think I told the operator that.​

2:29-3, 3:16-25:

Police call:

He's got his hand in his waistband.​

Singletion: OK. Pause it right there. Where's he, where are you, where are you at right now? Are you still at the clubhouse? Zimmerman: I think I'm still at the clubhouse, yes.
Singleton: OK.
​

I'm quite tired, so I'm going to quote [/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] nomatter0nevermind from here:

[/FONT]"A key point to understand is that the police call recording has one episode of Martin approaching Zimmerman's truck, then moving away from it. It's at most 50 seconds, between 'And now he's just staring at me' (0:47, 7:10:21), and 'These *** holes, they always get away' (1:37, 7:11:11).

There's a remark every few seconds.

It's not possible to divide this into two episodes, one at the clubhouse and one on Twin Trees Lane. There isn't time.

That's what Zimmerman seemed to be trying to do in 2/29-3. He didn't know it can't be done, because he hadn't heard the whole tape.
[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] It dawned on him gradually. After what I quoted above, there is one 'I think so,' one 'I don't know', and one 'I don't remember.'"[/FONT]

 

[Skeptic Tank]

What I suspect happened is that:

Thanks for your honesty and for answering my question.

I agree that wouldn't be Murder 2, because my understanding is that you are still allowed to defend your life even if you start a fight, if you're unable to retreat (someone restraining you, sitting on top of you) and are clearly indicating your desire to do so (screaming in terror) and they are continuing to harm you.

 

[lionking]

You're implying they're equally offensive, but they're not. Coons/Koons is a derogatory term specifically aimed at African Americans, where "punks" is just a general term, without a specific target.

Its only significance is that if it was a variation of "coons", then it could potentially be looked upon as a hate crime, but the FBI has apparently already ruled that out.

I strongly doubt that GZ's choice of derogatory words will feature in the trial. He has far too many other things pointing to his guilt.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Zimmerman: I think I'm still at the clubhouse,

I believe the other event happened prior to him connecting to dispatch.

I believe Zimmerman is struggling to remember the exact order of events, and I think that's entirely natural given what he went through.

 

[phonebook]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=54m21s

GZ - "When I was at the clubhouse, he walked past"

Serino - "Are you driving slowly or something?"

GZ - "No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.​

So was GZ lying the first time with Singleton (02/26), but telling the truth during the walk-through (which time? 02/27), then lying again during this interview that took place on 02/29?

ETA: same interview as above, earlier in: Link - GZ "No, I called when I was at the clubhouse"

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Btw, regarding antiquated terminology... I find it amusing that some of the same people who find "homie" hard to believe think "coons" is believable.

I wanted to add my 2 cents on "homie" also. Due to my own life experiences within the last few years, I happen to know that that term, while not nearly as common as it once was... is, in fact still in use.

 

[Rare Truth]

I believe the other event happened prior to him connecting to dispatch.

I believe Zimmerman is struggling to remember the exact order of events, and I think that's entirely natural given what he went through.

So you think there are *two* events?

To repeat:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"A key point to understand is that the police call recording has one episode of Martin approaching Zimmerman's truck, then moving away from it. It's at most 50 seconds, between 'And now he's just staring at me' (0:47, 7:10:21), and 'These *** holes, they always get away' (1:37, 7:11:11).

There's a remark every few seconds.

It's not possible to divide this into two episodes, one at the clubhouse and one on Twin Trees Lane. There isn't time

-----
I'll refer you again to the 311 tape:

[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
1:03 (7:10:37 EST)
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

---

You're not getting this. The times don't fit.
[/FONT]

 

[phonebook]

So you think there are *two* events?

Two events: one that took place as GZ was trying to get through to dispatch, which wasn't recorded (and thus not constrained by the time limit of the recorded call), and the second (when TM circles GZ's car), while GZ is connected and the call is being recorded.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

So you think there are *two* events?

You're not getting this. The times don't fit.

I'm getting it just fine, let me refer you to phonebook's post.

 

[Dan O.]

2.) It would be pretty foolish to speak a racial epithet, even under your breath, while on the line with police dispatch after you'd already told them the person you're calling about is black, and you're hoping they'll send someone out and cooperate with you. You'd run the very real risk of Sean the dispatch operator saying "Excuse me sir?!?! Can you repeat that?" and treating you in a very different and less friendly way for the rest of the call, potentially even terminating the call.

I think you're on to something there.

4.) The prosecution says it was "punks" in their charging documentation from the first hearing.

5.) This won't be worth much to you, but I have felt it was quite clearly the word "punks" from the very first time I heard it.

What would be more relevant would be what George says it was the first time the tape was played back for him.

 

[phonebook]

What would be more relavent would be what George says it was the first time the tape was played back for him.

That would be "punks"

ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=56m38s

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I think you're on to something there.

Can you elaborate?

 

[phonebook]

Where did Z say TM was circling his truck on the 311 call?

The fact that TM "circled" his car isn't something that would have been immediately evident until the "circling" was complete, so you wouldn't call it "circling" until you had hindsight, which is what GZ had during the interviews.

He wouldn't have said "he's circling my car right now" unless he somehow knew that that would be the end result. He probably saw TM approaching his vehicle on one side... not knowing that he wouldn't just continue walking right past, but then TM turns at the rear of his vehicle ("Yep... he's coming to check me out"), but then he sees something in TM's hands, which probably is a greater concern at the moment than precisely detailing the shape/pattern of this guy's path.

It's not like he did a number of 360's or something. I imagine (without GZ being more specific, that I'm aware) he just approached on one side, went around the back, and then returned on the other side of the vehicle, like a boomerang path, back to where he came from.

 

[Dan O.]

Can you elaborate?

I thought I did.

Compare what I highlighted to the transcript I just posted starting just after the phrase in question.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I thought I did.

Compare what I highlighted to the transcript I just posted starting just after the phrase in question.

So your implication is that you think Sean did hear "coons" and started treating GZ differently?

You do realize, he sounds completely friendly and accommodating and cordial later in the call right? Like when they're hammering out the details about where the officer will meet GZ?

I agree that he heard GZ though, and he most likely heard what GZ actually said, which was "punks" - which was sufficient to give him some temporary concern about GZ following and getting directly involved. I think Sean's concern was that GZ might be attempting to interact with Trayvon directly. I believe that concern was unfounded.

 

[Dan O.]

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to give me a very brief, summarized outline? Even a couple of sentences would be fine. I'm not looking for some super detailed narrative. Just broad strokes.

Here's the 2 sentence undisputed version:

1. Trayvom Martin was walking home from the store in the rain minding his own business talking to his girl on the phone.

2. George Zimmerman followed, shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

George and his supporters have been trying very hard to say there was something else going on that night but they have so far failed to produce anything that stands up to scrutiny.

 

[phonebook]

0.052250 0.052250 <beginning>
0.547332 3.058748 D: Sanford Police department, line's being recorded, this is shawn.
3.478002 4.454800 [noise]
4.454800 10.997616 Hey, we've had some breakins in my neighborhood and there's a real suspicious guy, ah, it's Retreat View Circle
11.115083 15.993892 Um, the best address I can give you is 1-11 Retreat View Circle.
12.251678 13.250812 [whish-wassh (wipers?)
16.389957 16.587990 [clump]
16.953178 17.086509 [ump]​

So, this is when George finally gets through to the NEN. According to the walkthrough, he's either already pulled into the parking area in front of the clubhouse or he is just pulling in at this point.

According to one single statement he makes in the walk-through video. Yet 25 seconds later, in that same walk-through, he makes a statement that contradicts that single statement. This contradiction is actually consistent with the multiple statements he made the previous evening in the interview with Detective Singleton, where he says he was still trying to get through to non-emergency (at the clubhouse) when TM walks past GZ, looks into his vehicle, and then "loses contact" with TM, presumably because there is foliage and/or the mailbox structure blocking GZ's view of where TM would have gone (onto TTL). GZ also corroborates this story he tells Singleton on 02/26 on his interview with both Serino and Singleton on 02/29 (about when he first made the call to non-emergency).

17.326113 22.672999 This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or sumptin it's raining and he's just...
23.672164 25.130406 walking around looking about​

Ah, no mention of looking into George's truck or circling George's truck. he's just looking looking about, not even looking at George yet.

Because the "looking into his truck" had already occurred (before the call connected), but the "circling" had yet to occur.

41.666146 43.691482 He's here now, he's just staring
43.889515 45.536788 D: O-K he's just walking around the area.
44.654642 46.103882 Looking at all the houses.
46.319917 46.842004 D: O-K
46.940972 48.460058 And now he's just starring at me.​

And Now! It's like that hadn't happened before.

Not sure if this will change your interpretation of that, but there is no "and" said there.

60.647540 60.735301 [clunk]
61.242611 61.452859 [ka-klunk]
61.979898 62.025865 [unk]
62.424546 62.904391 [tk-whoosh-tk]
63.250384 64.919680 He's got his hand in his waistband
64.978347 65.575731 [tone]
65.575731 65.782246 [Clump]
68.247673 69.229979 and he's a black male
69.258473 69.415642 [clunik]
69.674491 70.060814 D: Oh-kay
70.128792 71.199475 D: How old would you say he looks?
71.199475 72.674323 he's got a button on his shirt
72.908313 73.787549 late teens.
73.787549 74.680967 D: Late teens, ok.
75.581475 76.028183 mm-hmm
76.219630 76.510345 [kalump]
77.191044 78.105733 somthin's wrong with him
80.963251 83.324426 yup, he's coming to check me out
84.068940 86.807252 he's got somethin in his hands, i don't know what his deal is.​

DeeDee mentions Trayvon going under the awning of the building to get out of the rain. This is also where the sidewalk is and it passes right in front of Georges truck. If George has his headlights on, this gives George a very good look at Trayvon but Trayvon isn't going to see much besides an occasional glimpse of a face illuminated by a cell phone.

If GZ is parked near the T, at the same location where his vehicle is when he exits it some time later, and TM is approaching him like GZ describes in the walk-through, and the first interview with Singleton, then his headlights would give him a very good look at TM when he comes to circle his vehicle as well.

99.511132 100.780983 [thump-whump]
100.885884 102.933133 [noises]
103.081724 103.415228 Yep
103.468060 104.148275 [noise/(i'm mad)?]
104.311018 105.110867 [clucking noise]
105.861481 108.202108 when you come to the club house you come straight in
109.251354 109.977756 and make a left
111.301420 114.016547 actually you'd would go past the club house
114.416875 116.583165 D: O-K it says on the left hand side from the club house
117.651782 120.802750 nooo, you go in, straight through the entrance
121.813254 122.898014 and then you make a left
123.130462 125.500145 Ah, yea, you go straight in
125.975062 126.868965 don't turn and make a left​

Here we know that George has pulled out of the clubhouse parking area and started down Twin Trees lane. He is giving the dispatcher directions to where he is currently at which includes going around that first corner on Twin Trees. He still hasn't seen Trayvon until...

I disagree, I think he's observing TM walking away from him, after he's circled his car, the entire time. That's why GZ's words get especially jumbled/confused sounding, around the 2:00 mark, because he's distracted by what he apparently perceives as TM "running", or fleeing.

126.925619 127.910459 ****, he's running
128.310091 129.413657 D: he's runn-in, which way is he runn-in?
129.438063 129.925915 [shift clicks]130.012332 134.087636 [high-low repeating tone]
130.345046 130.667358 ahh
131.414002 134.244695 down towards the ahh, other entrance to the neighborhood
134.088058 134.099880 [door closing]​

Those aren't shift clicks; they do not match the sounds of the shift clicks heard earlier in the call. They are most likely the sound of him rotating the ignition switch to the off position and removing the keys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=56m03s

ETA: GZ - "When he says 'which way are you running' I turn off the ignition" (he mixes words here, as the dispatcher says "Which way is he running")

145.351620 146.694827 D: O-k, we don't need you to do that
146.778980 147.594614 [echo?]
147.753209 148.161026 O-K
148.284019 148.918401 [wind+noise]
149.154676 153.705396 [wind+noise]
153.724815 155.064786 D: Alright sir, what is your name?
155.682475 156.208207 [vocal background noise]
156.372389 156.537458 George
157.744726 158.155779 he ran
159.130302 160.070574 [wind]​

And he continued to run or walk fast but he has lost him. The real question is, where is George at this time? The sound of the TV in the background might be a clue but it seems like everybody in that complex had a tv or radio on at that time.

In the voice stress video/interview, GZ says he's approaching the T area when he says "He ran", which makes sense as that's where he sees TM turn the corner, so when GZ gets to that same corner, and looks south and doesn't see TM, he makes the "He ran", as in "He fled/got away", comment.

218.691860 221.468761 D: O-K, do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
222.647226 223.400629 Yea, that's fine
225.753553 227.858015 D: alright George, I'll let them know to meet you when they get out there, ok.
227.478739 230.780566 Actually, could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at.
231.009026 232.155560 D: O-K, yea, that's no problem.
233.357142 234.768078 you need my number or you got it?
234.858619 237.745882 D: Yea I, I got it, 4-0-7, 4-3-5, 4-2-0-0
238.764472 239.554194 yea, you got it.
239.571799 241.822757 D: O-K, no problem, I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area.
242.816197 243.238723 Thanks
243.304980 243.675611 D: You're welcome.
244.090804 245.002392 [signal noise]
251.052250 251.052250 end​

And so the call ends. Is George cowering under the street light on RVC or is George walking back towards his truck from the south end of the dog path?

I'm not sure, but I believe he's most likely at RVC, since he's asked for the officer to call him upon arrival. Being at a full address on RVC (street name + house number) would allow him to give the responding officer an exact location to punch into his computer/GPS with which to respond to.

 

[Dan O.]

I think Sean's concern was that GZ might be attempting to interact with Trayvon directly. I believe that concern was unfounded.

Except for the highlighted parts, I agree. George's intent is not material. His action was reckless and needed to be stopped. By the time the dispatcher stops talking to George, the wind noise has stopped so the errant behavior has been successfully stopped.

Most kids in their late teens would be long gone given the short duration of George's chase. What the dispatcher would not be aware of is that George covered most of the distance in his truck and Trayvon being winded from the run down Twin Trees Lane took cover instead of running and being followed home.

 

[phonebook]

Except for the highlighted parts, I agree. George's intent is not material. His action was reckless and needed to be stopped. By the time the dispatcher stops talking to George, the wind noise has stopped so the errant behavior has been successfully stopped.

Did the dispatcher have the power to slow/stall the wind? Serino himself confirms GZ's assertion that it was windy that evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=59m38s

GZ - "No, it was just windy"

Serino - "Yeah, it was"

Most kids in their late teens would be long gone given the short duration of George's chase. What the dispatcher would not be aware of is that George covered most of the distance in his truck and Trayvon being winded from the run down Twin Trees Lane took cover instead of running and being followed home.

That's IF there was any "running down TTL", which you're hypothesizing based on what again? (I honestly don't remember exactly what you base that theory on).