Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[phonebook]

I posted both videos. Anyone who can't piece those two things together is being willfully ignorant.

"When he starts the call, he is at the clubhouse and describes Trayvon as being at Taaffe's house, and walking towards him."

"That's your assumption. Nowhere does Zimmerman claim that Martin was at Taffe's address when he connected to NEN."

In all of GZ's interviews, walk-throughs, etc., when does he state that TM was "at Taaffe's house" when he connects to non-emergency? When does he ever state where TM is when he connects to non-emergency?

 

[Unabogie]

And yet this completely contradicts what George told the police. I agree it works better if your goal is to create a story that helps him avoid prison. If you want to stick to the facts it doesn't work as well.

 

[phonebook]

Then he says the dispatcher asked him what direction he went and THAT'S why he pullout out.

But we know that's not true. The only time the dispatcher asks GZ what direction he went is when the dispatcher says "He's running? Which way is he running?". We know by the door chime that this is when GZ gets out of his vehicle, not when he backs out of the clubhouse.

So is GZ intentionally being deceitful in the walk-through video, or is this a product of a flawed memory?

"And I said I don't know, because he cut down here and made a right, and this is TWIN TREES LANE" at 5:00.

Note here. The next day, he clearly knows the name of the street. Like magic, I tells ya.

Couldn't possibly be related to the hours of interviews he gave the previous evening where the name "Twin Trees Lane" came up many many times could it? Or maybe, in the daylight, GZ sees the street sign "Twin Trees Lane", on top of the stop sign, just a few yards away from where he's at at that very moment?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

And yet this completely contradicts what George told the police.

I thought George did tell police about Trayvon going down the T, then re-emerging. I also thought I recalled him saying he was still trying to get through, as per the quotes recently posted by phonebook.

So, can you explain in what sense it "completely contradicts" what he told police?

 

[Unabogie]

But we know that's not true. The only time the dispatcher asks GZ what direction he went is when the dispatcher says "He's running? Which way is he running?". We know by the door chime that this is when GZ gets out of his vehicle, not when he backs out of the clubhouse.

So is GZ intentionally being deceitful in the walk-through video, or is this a product of a flawed memory?

Right! Yes! He's being intentionally deceitful right there. He's claiming the dispatcher told him to go follow the victim when that didn't happen. And he makes up the whole story of the victim circling his car at the T, when that didn't happen either. This is why we've been saying his walkthrough doesn't match the NEN tape and is impossible. He told so many lies that even YOU can't fail to notice it.

 

[Unabogie]

I thought George did tell police about Trayvon going down the T, then re-emerging. I also thought I recalled him saying he was still trying to get through, as per the quotes recently posted by phonebook.

So, can you explain in what sense it "completely contradicts" what he told police?

I've just spent four pages describing it in detail. Go back and read what I've already written.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

And he makes up the whole story of the victim circling his car at the T, when that didn't happen either.

We hear that event take place on the call itself. Or do you fancy that Zimmerman was lying about what was taking place in real time to the dispatcher?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Well that may not be true but all of the people who didn't vote for Obama definitely are!

Anyway, in all seriousness, there obviously are many people who didn't vote for Obama simply because they are racist. Of course it's not all of the people that didn't vote for him! Some people say something is an absolute for effect, just because the reality is almost as bad.

And if you don't even believe the former then I have a bridge to sell you. (Really it's not much different than someone not voting for him just because he is Democratic... Though it is much more socially unacceptable to be "out" as a racist than as a specific party member!)

Likewise there are many people who are pro-Z simply because they are racist.

There are several ways to tell, several lines of reasoning they use that give us a hint. Quite often they don't even know it when they type it either! But sometimes they see it afterwards...

Would it blow your mind to know that I voted for Obama?

 

[Dan O.]

0.052250 0.052250 <beginning>
0.547332 3.058748 D: Sanford Police department, line's being recorded, this is shawn.
3.478002 4.454800 [noise]
4.454800 10.997616 Hey, we've had some breakins in my neighborhood and there's a real suspicious guy, ah, it's Retreat View Circle
11.115083 15.993892 Um, the best address I can give you is 1-11 Retreat View Circle.
12.251678 13.250812 [whish-wassh (wipers?)
16.389957 16.587990 [clump]
16.953178 17.086509 [ump]​

So, this is when George finally gets through to the NEN. According to the walkthrough, he's either already pulled into the parking area in front of the clubhouse or he is just pulling in at this point.

17.326113 22.672999 This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or sumptin it's raining and he's just...
23.672164 25.130406 walking around looking about​

Ah, no mention of looking into George's truck or circling George's truck. he's just looking looking about, not even looking at George yet.

25.697500 27.623819 D: O-K, and this guy, is he white, black or hispanic?
28.812016 29.739170 He looks black
30.405280 31.368440 D: Did you see what he was wearing?
31.418219 31.539190 [tump]
32.088559 35.617144 Yea, mm, a dark hoodie like a grey hoody and...
33.267756 33.457015 [pok]
36.400274 39.046712 Either jeans or sweet pants and white tennis shoes​

40 seconds into the call and still no mention of Treyvon interacting with George.

41.666146 43.691482 He's here now, he's just staring
43.889515 45.536788 D: O-K he's just walking around the area.
44.654642 46.103882 Looking at all the houses.
46.319917 46.842004 D: O-K
46.940972 48.460058 And now he's just starring at me.​

And Now! It's like that hadn't happened before.

48.758503 52.280157 D: Ah, O-K, you said it was 1-1-1-1 Retreat View or 1-11?
52.618394 55.604955 That's the, that's the club house. he's at the clubhouse now.​

Remember, George had passed Trayvon at Taaffle's house and drove ahead to the clubhouse. Now Trayvon has just gotten to the clubhouse

54.224774 55.644463 D: That's the club house. Do you know what the (????)
55.863929 57.145391 D: He's near the clubhouse right now
58.139714 59.660732 Yea, now he's coming towards me.
59.801840 60.315409 D: Oh-Kay​

Numnuts George has passed this kid and parked near the sidewalk that is the most obvious path for him to take. And then he acts concerned that the kid is coming towards him.

60.647540 60.735301 [clunk]
61.242611 61.452859 [ka-klunk]
61.979898 62.025865 [unk]
62.424546 62.904391 [tk-whoosh-tk]
63.250384 64.919680 He's got his hand in his waistband
64.978347 65.575731 [tone]
65.575731 65.782246 [Clump]
68.247673 69.229979 and he's a black male
69.258473 69.415642 [clunik]
69.674491 70.060814 D: Oh-kay
70.128792 71.199475 D: How old would you say he looks?
71.199475 72.674323 he's got a button on his shirt
72.908313 73.787549 late teens.
73.787549 74.680967 D: Late teens, ok.
75.581475 76.028183 mm-hmm
76.219630 76.510345 [kalump]
77.191044 78.105733 somthin's wrong with him
80.963251 83.324426 yup, he's coming to check me out
84.068940 86.807252 he's got somethin in his hands, i don't know what his deal is.​

DeeDee mentions Trayvon going under the awning of the building to get out of the rain. This is also where the sidewalk is and it passes right in front of Georges truck. If George has his headlights on, this gives George a very good look at Trayvon but Trayvon isn't going to see much besides an occasional glimpse of a face illuminated by a cell phone.

87.028333 87.221341 [klopp]
87.506100 89.250277 D: O-K just let me know if he does anything, O-K.
88.106937 89.757780 please please get an officer over here.
89.470616 89.566637 [echo -K]
89.961176 92.508213 D: Yea, we got him on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
94.289272 94.753054 mm-kay
95.675923 96.528904 [noise]
96.528904 97.279271 (thank god)
97.279271 99.280250 these ********, they always get away
97.514162 98.241280 [shifting clicks]​

Notice here that George stops talking about Trayvon even though the dispatcher is asking for more information. In the walkthrough, George says that Trayvon went through towards the mailboxes and therefore he os out of sight.

99.511132 100.780983 [thump-whump]
100.885884 102.933133 [noises]
103.081724 103.415228 Yep
103.468060 104.148275 [noise/(i'm mad)?]
104.311018 105.110867 [clucking noise]
105.861481 108.202108 when you come to the club house you come straight in
109.251354 109.977756 and make a left
111.301420 114.016547 actually you'd would go past the club house
114.416875 116.583165 D: O-K it says on the left hand side from the club house
117.651782 120.802750 nooo, you go in, straight through the entrance
121.813254 122.898014 and then you make a left
123.130462 125.500145 Ah, yea, you go straight in
125.975062 126.868965 don't turn and make a left​

Here we know that George has pulled out of the clubhouse parking area and started down Twin Trees lane. He is giving the dispatcher directions to where he is currently at which includes going around that first corner on Twin Trees. He still hasn't seen Trayvon until...

126.925619 127.910459 ****, he's running
128.310091 129.413657 D: he's runn-in, which way is he runn-in?
129.438063 129.925915 [shift clicks]
130.012332 134.087636 [high-low repeating tone]
130.345046 130.667358 ahh
131.414002 134.244695 down towards the ahh, other entrance to the neighborhood
134.088058 134.099880 [door closing]​

This sections lets us estimate how far behind Trayvon George is. There would be insufficient light in the tee area itself to have spotted someone in dark clothing from far away so he is most likely spotted while running past the street light at the corner. George also needs to be close enough to pull up to the corner and park in a couple of seconds. And Trayvon has turned the corner at the tee and is heading south, down towards the other entrance.

134.488209 136.609911 D: O-K, which en-trance is that that he's heading towards
137.320152 138.331036 the back entrance
138.679957 140.497666 [noise]
140.934523 141.228893 [wind]
141.671824 141.795625 (fu)
141.852000 141.938683 (k)
141.957941 142.029470 (in)
142.112321 142.147003 (k)
142.193011 142.341650 (oo)
142.350851 142.393320
142.410307 142.508692 (s)
142.601704 142.923585 [wind]
142.923585 143.888658 D: are you following him?
143.933971 144.247925 [noise]
145.002063 145.260994 ya​

Now, there has been a lot of debate as to whether George was actually following Trayvon or just going in the same direction. But looking at this timeline, is George past the tee yet? If he was running or walking fast he may have already passed the tee. And if that's the case, the direction George must be moving is to the south, the same direction as Trayvon.

145.351620 146.694827 D: O-k, we don't need you to do that
146.778980 147.594614 [echo?]
147.753209 148.161026 O-K
148.284019 148.918401 [wind+noise]
149.154676 153.705396 [wind+noise]
153.724815 155.064786 D: Alright sir, what is your name?
155.682475 156.208207 [vocal background noise]
156.372389 156.537458 George
157.744726 158.155779 he ran
159.130302 160.070574 [wind]​

And he continued to run or walk fast but he has lost him. The real question is, where is George at this time? The sound of the TV in the background might be a clue but it seems like everybody in that complex had a tv or radio on at that time.

160.107475 161.237063 D: alright George, what's your last name
162.081827 162.402255 [clacks]
162.664423 163.276148 Zimmerman
164.250378 165.816913 D: And George, what's the phone number you are calling from?
164.539886 165.538562 (****, unintelligible)
165.975509 166.642257 [tap-tap-tap]
166.888242 167.558227 4-0-7
168.519510 169.522869 4-3-5
170.435602 171.607267 2-4-0-0
172.189863 172.312855 [click]​

This provides a clue as to where George is. He's up a creek without a paddle (or in this case, in a dark alley without a good flashlight).

172.733619 175.523605 D: alright George, we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
176.504308 176.818262 yea
177.287575 178.426874 D: alright, where are you going to meet'm with them at
179.805493 180.219783 um
180.555548 180.983377 if they
181.362466 182.805713 come in through the a
183.016920 183.100861 [tap]
183.217295 183.482658 gate
183.523274 183.867163 [tap-tap]
184.535984 186.715747 tell them to go straight past the club house
187.674301 188.489342 [tap-tap-tap-tap]
188.359369 189.068807 and ahh
190.769293 192.193585 sss-straight past the clubhouse
192.458947 193.279404 and make a left
194.162141 196.217345 and then they go past the mail box es
196.983647 198.305043 they'll see my truck​

So George is either thinking about returning to his truck or telling to officer to follow the path into the dark alley.

198.508127 200.649981 D: O-K, wha, what address are you parked in front of?
198.871759 198.946845 (the)
199.175920 199.322274 (keys)
199.393542 199.659524 (are in my)
199.838966 199.994228 (truck)
201.698294 201.935005 [noise]
202.039361 202.764766 ummm
202.903484 203.613617 I don't know
203.702702 205.644751 it's a cut through so I don't know the address
206.230166 207.568983 D: O-K, do you live in the area?
208.480194 209.819012 Yea, yea, I (???)
209.042701 210.595322 D: Well, what's what's your apartment number?
211.618525 213.667476 It's a home, it's 1-9-5-0
215.062290 217.090878 Oh crap, I don't want to give that out loud
217.327590 218.358428 I don't know where this kid is​

This is the statement that is going to cause George a lot of grief. In the Reconstruction and subsequent interviews, George says Trayvon ran south at the tee and he ran to the lighted area on RVC. If they ran in different directions and he is in an area with good lighting, what is he afraid of? But if he went in the direction he saw Trayvon run and he is in the dark in the area where he lost track of him, he would be afraid that the kid could be hiding anywhere around him.

218.691860 221.468761 D: O-K, do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
222.647226 223.400629 Yea, that's fine
225.753553 227.858015 D: alright George, I'll let them know to meet you when they get out there, ok.
227.478739 230.780566 Actually, could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at.
231.009026 232.155560 D: O-K, yea, that's no problem.
233.357142 234.768078 you need my number or you got it?
234.858619 237.745882 D: Yea I, I got it, 4-0-7, 4-3-5, 4-2-0-0
238.764472 239.554194 yea, you got it.
239.571799 241.822757 D: O-K, no problem, I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area.
242.816197 243.238723 Thanks
243.304980 243.675611 D: You're welcome.
244.090804 245.002392 [signal noise]
251.052250 251.052250 end​

And so the call ends. Is George cowering under the street light on RVC or is George walking back towards his truck from the south end of the dog path?

 

[KatieG]

0.052250 0.052250 <beginning>
0.547332 3.058748 D: Sanford Police department, line's being recorded, this is shawn.
3.478002 4.454800 [noise]
4.454800 10.997616 Hey, we've had some breakins in my neighborhood and there's a real suspicious guy, ah, it's Retreat View Circle
11.115083 15.993892 Um, the best address I can give you is 1-11 Retreat View Circle.
12.251678 13.250812 [whish-wassh (wipers?)
16.389957 16.587990 [clump]
16.953178 17.086509 [ump]​

So, this is when George finally gets through to the NEN. According to the walkthrough, he's either already pulled into the parking area in front of the clubhouse or he is just pulling in at this point.

Thank you, Dan O!

 

[Skeptic Tank]

141.671824 141.795625 (fu)
141.852000 141.938683 (k)
141.957941 142.029470 (in)
142.112321 142.147003 (k)
142.193011 142.341650 (oo)
142.350851 142.393320
142.410307 142.508692 (s)

Btw, I have an open question to anyone who believes George Zimmerman is guilty of murder 2. I'd really appreciate as many of you who fall in that category as possible answering this. Because I'm honestly not sure I understand...

Can you explain to me what it is you think happened after George got out of his truck, up to the point the gun goes off, and why it is murder?

 

[Dan O.]

[IMGW=640]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=868&pictureid=7666[/IMGW]

Play'n roly-poly with them eyeballs? I personally played this section at various speeds and looping to isolate the sounds of each syllable. That's what I got and I show the times where each syllable is heard in George's voice. You are welcome to try and spin that as hard as you want but you are going to have to come up with a better technical analysis than to change my mind.

Btw, I have an open question to anyone who believes George Zimmerman is guilty of murder 2. I'd really appreciate as many of you who fall in that category as possible answering this. Because I'm honestly not sure I understand...

Can you explain to me what it is you think happened after George got out of his truck, up to the point the gun goes off, and why it is murder?

You can rewind this thread to find my detailed post on that. What I haven't seen is a similarly detailed narrative from the other side that doesn't involve "fixes" to get the evidence to the places where it was found.

 

[lionking]

Disproportional force against a confrontation unlikely (and in fact didn't) do GZ much harm at all. Pretty open and shut.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Play'n roly-poly with them eyeballs? I personally played this section at various speeds and looping to isolate the sounds of each syllable. That's what I got and I show the times where each syllable is heard in George's voice. You are welcome to try and spin that as hard as you want but you are going to have to come up with a better technical analysis than to change my mind.

Well, I can't claim to have your apparent technical expertise with audio... but I'll just mention a few things here:

1.) 28 year old Hispanic males who have black friends don't use redneck racist epithets in 2012 which went out of "style" decades earlier.

2.) It would be pretty foolish to speak a racial epithet, even under your breath, while on the line with police dispatch after you'd already told them the person you're calling about is black, and you're hoping they'll send someone out and cooperate with you. You'd run the very real risk of Sean the dispatch operator saying "Excuse me sir?!?! Can you repeat that?" and treating you in a very different and less friendly way for the rest of the call, potentially even terminating the call.

3.) Even most other people who think GZ is guilty of Murder 2 at this point don't think it was "coons" anymore.

4.) The prosecution says it was "punks" in their charging documentation from the first hearing.

5.) This won't be worth much to you, but I have felt it was quite clearly the word "punks" from the very first time I heard it.

You've probably seen this, but this 6 minute video, I believe, does a very good job of analyzing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLIZOM32I4

You can rewind this thread to find my detailed post on that. What I haven't seen is a similarly detailed narrative from the other side that doesn't involve "fixes" to get the evidence to the places where it was found.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to give me a very brief, summarized outline? Even a couple of sentences would be fine. I'm not looking for some super detailed narrative. Just broad strokes.

 

[Rare Truth]

We hear that event take place on the call itself. Or do you fancy that Zimmerman was lying about what was taking place in real time to the dispatcher?

Where did Z say TM was circling his truck on the 311 call?

 

[lionking]

Well, I can't claim to have your apparent technical expertise with audio... but I'll just mention a few things here:

1.) 28 year old Hispanic males who have black friends don't use redneck racist epithets in 2012 which went out of "style" decades earlier.

2.) It would be pretty foolish to speak a racial epithet, even under your breath, while on the line with police dispatch after you'd already told them the person you're calling about is black, and you're hoping they'll send someone out and cooperate with you. You'd run the very real risk of Sean the dispatch operator saying "Excuse me sir?!?! Can you repeat that?" and treating you in a very different and less friendly way for the rest of the call, potentially even terminating the call.

3.) Even most other people who think GZ is guilty of Murder 2 at this point don't think it was "coons" anymore.

4.) The prosecution says it was "punks" in their charging documentation from the first hearing.

5.) This won't be worth much to you, but I have felt it was quite clearly the word "punks" from the very first time I heard it.

You've probably seen this, but this 6 minute video, I believe, does a very good job of analyzing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLIZOM32I4



Perhaps you'd be so kind as to give me a very brief, summarized outline? Even a couple of sentences would be fine. I'm not looking for some super detailed narrative. Just broad strokes.

Does the use of one insulting, derogatory word and not another point to GZ's innocence? Or are you suggesting the tape has been tampered with. It's a bit hard to tell.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Does the use of one insulting, derogatory word and not another point to GZ's innocence? Or are you suggesting the tape has been tampered with. It's a bit hard to tell.

Not saying anything has been tampered with.

As for "insulting, derogatory word" ... I think "_____ punks" was a manifestation of his frustration with the burglaries, and him (correctly) pegging Trayvon as a delinquent and a criminal.

I don't think it was dripping with murderous intent, or racism, or anything of the sort.

Frustration, and probably a little bit of trying to be buddy buddy with the dispatcher mixed in.

 

[Mumbles]

Well, I can't claim to have your apparent technical expertise with audio... but I'll just mention a few things here:

1.) 28 year old Hispanic males who have black friends don't use redneck racist epithets in 2012 which went out of "style" decades earlier.

You'ld be surprised...

2.) It would be pretty foolish to speak a racial epithet, even under your breath, while on the line with police dispatch after you'd already told them the person you're calling about is black, and you're hoping they'll send someone out and cooperate with you. You'd run the very real risk of Sean the dispatch operator saying "Excuse me sir?!?! Can you repeat that?" and treating you in a very different and less friendly way for the rest of the call, potentially even terminating the call.

It's also pretty foolish to get out of your car and run after someone who was just looking around as s/he walked down the street, while on the phone with the cops. But that's what Zimmerman did.

3.) Even most other people who think GZ is guilty of Murder 2 at this point don't think it was "coons" anymore.

This one is important - I don't think that what Zimmerman said was clear at all. "Punks" is as reasonable as any other interpretation. Of course, it's been a long time since racist were proud of their biases, and it's odd to suggest that a person can't be somewhat racist, unless they're spewing racial slurs openly.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Where did Z say TM was circling his truck on the 311 call?

He didn't use the word "circling" within the call itself, but he describes TM coming toward his car, looking at him, checking him out, and motioning with his waistband. I believe this is when the circling takes place.

 

[phonebook]

Does the use of one insulting, derogatory word and not another point to GZ's innocence? Or are you suggesting the tape has been tampered with. It's a bit hard to tell.

You're implying they're equally offensive, but they're not. Coons/Koons is a derogatory term specifically aimed at African Americans, where "punks" is just a general term, without a specific target.

Its only significance is that if it was a variation of "coons", then it could potentially be looked upon as a hate crime, but the FBI has apparently already ruled that out.