Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Again, it surprises me that his word is gold when you need to prove something but when it's contrary to your theory, it's all lies. I don't recall him ever specifically mentioning when the flashlight went down, probably because he does not remember. I am not turning it into my version beats yours because they are both entirely imagination. All I am saying is, it is entirely possible for the flashlight to end up far from the initial confrontation because things do get moved about in a scuffle, as I have seen, with my own eyes, witnessing fights when I was a kid.

A scuffle in which he described as not moving anywhere, least of all down to where the actual scuffle was. I'm surprised that you don't want us to take his statements and compare them to the actual evidence and hold him accountable for things he said which aren't possible.

There's a reason why people accused of crimes lie, and it's to avoid going to jail. Each one of these inconsistencies only serves to cast himself in the light of helpless victim instead of willing participant in a fight, which he himself caused to happen by chasing a kid who he thought, erroneously, was up to no good. Just because his lies are easily destroyed doesn't mean he wasn't lying with a purpose. If he was lying, then we can easily guess why.

I don't see why we have to excuse all of his embellishing and deceit.

He's going to answer for them in court, that's for sure.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Your question is misdirected. You should be asking phonebook to support his claim. It sounds like a bogus claim on it's face because not all crimes are solved or even have suspects so i first questioned him on that basis. When he repeated the claim i did a quick search and discovered that there was contrary information.
I haven't done a complete search to document all the b&e's in the neighborhood. Its something that should have been done long ago when the problem was noted. Doesn't this neighborhood have a liason with the police department that could gather this information to better inform the neighbors what the current problems are to watch out for?

He said "not that I am aware of" or something similar. If you are aware of "contrary information" why don't you just share it ?

ETA:

Went to check, he said IIRC, but that was in regards to number.

8 over the last 14 or 15 months, iirc. There were multiple perpetrators, 2 working together in one instance I believe. There was one arrest, and I'm not sure if he was one of the 2 that were involved in the previous burglary I referred to. All the ones that were seen fleeing the neighborhood (by people other than George), were young black males.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

George saw someone he felt was suspicious. As NW, he called it in to law enforcement. That was (or should have been) the end of his involvement with it There was to be no persuing of suspicious persons. The NW SOP said it, HE said it, the Sanford PD said it. Done. That's it. Here it is again:

1. See something suspicious?
2. Call it in.

That's it.

See, if George had stayed in his vehicle after following the above advice, we wouldn't be having this conversation and an unarmed teenager who did nothing wrong and had a right to be where he was would still be alive.

But since these ******** always get away, George became more than a NW "Captain". George began to act outside his NW role. Remember, his NW had a policy of not persuing suspicious persons. And since it's a safe bet the NW program was approved by the HOA, therein lies their role in it and subsequent settlement.

We can go down this road - please provide a link or a copy of the RATL NW policy and/or procedures manual.

 

[johnny karate]

Yeah, I don't know why he passed it up. You would have to ask him. You have been given reasons why he would, but for some reason you keep ignoring them and continue asking....

No, all I've ever been given are vague rationalizations in between posts about how little evidence there is against Zimmerman (he shouldn't have even been arrested!), and how all the witnesses corroborate his story.

Then when I remind the posters making those claims that if any of that were true, the immunity hearing should be an easy road to acquittal, it's back to the vague rationalizations.

For the second part, I already gave you one possible reason - MOM wants to win the case and become famous as the man who defended GZ.

So the conspiracy against Zimmerman deepens.

Prosecutors that file bogus charges for political purposes.

Judges who are too biased to trust to rule fairly at an immunity hearing.

And now a defense attorney out for his own personal gain over the best interests of his client. (By the way, it would be much better for O'Mara's chances at fame if he successfully defended Zimmerman rather than make a series of incompetent blunders like not filing a motion for dismissal in a case that warrants one.)

Zimmerman just can't catch a break.

Then again, maybe there's a reasonable chance he's guilty of murder and this is what it looks like when the wheels of justice turn.

 

[Dan O.]

MOM is unethical?

MOM is a lawyer. MOM is not going to do anything that will jeopardize his providing the maximum service that his client can afford.

 

[Dcdrac]

How many times does it have to be spelled out.

Zimmerman caused this, his actions alone he got out of his car he confronted TM based on nothing but his own assumptions without identifying himself.

One way or the other he is responsible for what happened.

 

[Rare Truth]

There's a reason why people accused of crimes lie, and it's to avoid going to jail.
...

The prisons are filled with people who will swear up and down they were railroaded, and just about all of them lied before they were sent to spend time behind bars with lonesome Earl, and Sugar Joe.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

How many times does it have to be spelled out.

Zimmerman caused this, his actions alone he got out of his car he confronted TM based on nothing but his own assumptions without identifying himself.

One way or the other he is responsible for what happened.

What we are discussing is legal culpability.

You can dispense with the "if only he stayed in his truck" meme now.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, all I've ever been given are vague rationalizations in between posts about how little evidence there is against Zimmerman (he shouldn't have even been arrested!), and how all the witnesses corroborate his story.

Then when I remind the posters making those claims that if any of that were true, the immunity hearing should be an easy road to acquittal, it's back to the vague rationalizations.

That's a very one-sided summary of those exchanges.

So the conspiracy against Zimmerman deepens.

Prosecutors that file bogus charges for political purposes.

Governor appoints "special prosecutor" who bypasses usual grand jury procedure. Check.

Judges who are too biased to trust to rule fairly at an immunity hearing.

Judge already removed from case for being biased against defendant. Check.

And now a defense attorney out for his own personal gain over the best interests of his client. (By the way, it would be much better for O'Mara's chances at fame if he successfully defended Zimmerman rather than make a series of incompetent blunders like not filing a motion for dismissal in a case that warrants one.)

Attorney places own self interest before client. Check.

Zimmerman just can't catch a break.

Then again, maybe there's a reasonable chance he's guilty of murder and this is what it looks like when the wheels of justice turn.

Maybe, but I think above is a pretty good case against it.

 

[Rare Truth]

We can go down this road - please provide a link or a copy of the RATL NW policy and/or procedures manual.

For cripes sake. You've already been shown this 50 times.

Why do you keep doing this to people? I've known people with amnesia before, but it's rather tedious to see a poster coninually forget what has been presented over and over.

 

[Megalodon]

For cripes sake. You've already been shown this 50 times.

Why do you keep doing this to people? I've known people with amnesia before, but it's rather tedious to see a poster coninually forget what has been presented over and over.

Well, it explains the 220+ pages...

 

[12AX7]

We can go down this road - please provide a link or a copy of the RATL NW policy and/or procedures manual.

You seriously can't be this daft. I believe Rare Truth showed you this before.

I'll add to the above, for pb:

DO NOT CONFRONT!

Excerpts from Neighborhood Watch manuals:

"What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of the law enforcement agency." -- City of Sanford (where Trayvon Martin slaying occurred)


"Neighborhood Watch is an observe and report type of program. Neighborhood Watch members are encouraged not to stop and question people, but to observe and report their observations to the Sheriff's Office and a trained officer will respond and investigate the incident." -- Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office


"It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous." -- National Sheriff's Association

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/n...t-palm-beach-county-police-agencies--1/nLhqY/

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules.

Those rules I just posted are in the Discovery documentation, as well as Newsletters from the HOA that lists George as the go-to person to call regarding NW.

There is also a letters there from Wendy Dorival (SPD liaison) to GZ and Back discussing Chief Lee coming to talk to the group. I think this was sometime in Dec, a few months before the shooting. There are also emails from Chief Lee to GZ (and/or vice versa). Feel free to verify it.

And the clincher:

Seeing I'm feeling generous.

(remember that now...)

The actual handbook handed out by Zimmerman of the Sanford NW Program

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/z-nw_zpsa1f2ebe7.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook

ETA: Rare Truth beat me to it.

 

[Mister Earl]

The prisons are filled with people who will swear up and down they were railroaded, and just about all of them lied before they were sent to spend time behind bars with lonesome Earl, and Sugar Joe.

Some other Earl, I assure you all!

 

[TheL8Elvis]

For cripes sake. You've already been shown this 50 times.

Why do you keep doing this to people? I've known people with amnesia before, but it's rather tedious to see a poster coninually forget what has been presented over and over.

You seriously can't be this daft. I believe Rare Truth showed you this before.

And the clincher:


[qimg]http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u613/Binary3/z-nw_zps48d4d651.jpg[/qimg]


ETA: Rare Truth beat me to it.

The point was that RATL had not adopted a neighborhood watch policy or manual.

Those are excepts from the city of sanford and/or generic handouts.

Just like if I asked for the RATL HOA documents, I would expect you to link to the actual HOA docs for that HOA, I would expect you to link to the actual NW policy adopted by RATL. But you can't. Because they never adopted one.

 

[Rare Truth]

Two words: Wendy. Dorival.

No three words: Powerpoint

No, four: Presentation.

No, Seven! I say seven! : Call. George.Zimmerman.

 

[Unabogie]

The point was that RATL had not adopted a neighborhood watch policy or manual.

Those are excepts from the city of sanford and/or generic handouts.

Just like if I asked for the RATL HOA documents, I would expect you to link to the actual HOA docs for that HOA, I would expect you to link to the actual NW policy adopted by RATL. But you can't. Because they never adopted one.

Yeah, I especially love this. Just because every NW program in the country adheres to these rules, and just because the actual handbook, handed out by the city of Sanford had these same rules:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook

I mean, that's what he had. That's what he handed out. That was the PD he worked with to set up the watch program. But you think because he never somehow formally in writing had a formal vote and a quorum that technically, somehow, through some glitch in the rules, doesn't have to account for why he did what everyone and their brother knows you shouldn't do?

 

[Rare Truth]

This article was written back in July. It pretty much comes right out and says it looks like the HOA would be liable. They really ********** up the way they went about letting the violence-prone wanna-be cop with a "hero complex" (that's detective Serino talking) nominate himself captain, then going so far as to make him the contact.

"If you live in a community with a homeowners association, legal experts recommend that you review the Neighborhood Watch program rules and check on the HOA's liability insurance coverage.

News reports on the Zimmerman case have said that he was designated by his HOA as a "captain" of the community's neighborhood watch program.
|

"It is quite unusual to have a resident listed as a security contact," says Allen Warren, an attorney with Chadwick, Washington, Moriarty, Elmore & Bunn in Fairfax, Va. "It's more common to rely on local law enforcement for security. HOAs should never give the impression they are providing security for residents."

...

Hirsch de Haan says that written guidelines must be distributed to all volunteers and to the community at large. The rules should prohibit carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch duty.

"If the volunteer overstepped the guidelines, the HOA is in much better shape legally if the guidelines are in written form," Hirsch de Haan says. ...

They should be told not to engage in any action other than calling 911 and reporting what they have seen to the local police."


http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal...from-lawsuits-against-your-hoa/#ixzz2MP8Ziyq9



Heck, flyers for the entire community were printed up by the Police with GZ's name on it to be the NW contact; they were posted up all over the common areas - they even had refrigerator magnets with Zimmerman's name on it, then 300 "contact cards" with Zimmerman's name on it.

 

[Megalodon]

The actual handbook handed out by Zimmerman of the Sanford NW Program

Bolding mine... Squirm all you want, the "Captain" adopted one...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Two words: Wendy. Dorival.

No three words: Powerpoint

No, four: Presentation.

No, Seven! I say seven! : Call. George.Zimmerman.

Yeah, I especially love this. Just because every NW program in the country adheres to these rules, and just because the actual handbook, handed out by the city of Sanford had these same rules:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/87073326/NWProgramHandbook

I mean, that's what he had. That's what he handed out. That was the PD he worked with to set up the watch program. But you think because he never somehow formally in writing had a formal vote and a quorum that technically, somehow, through some glitch in the rules, doesn't have to account for why he did what everyone and their brother knows you shouldn't do?

Yes, I probably should have been more direct to the claim regarding RATL official NW.. There was no official HOA policy, which is probably among the reasons they settled instead of going to court.

I don't disagree that GZ attended NW seminars by Wendy Dorival.

The question is will having attended a presentation by her, will that extend a duty upon him to act a certain way ? I'm not so sure.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This article was written back in July. It pretty much comes right out and says it looks like the HOA would be liable. They really ********** up the way they went about letting the violence-prone wanna-be cop with a "hero complex" (that's detective Serino talking) nominate himself captain, then going so far as to make him the contact.

"If you live in a community with a homeowners association, legal experts recommend that you review the Neighborhood Watch program rules and check on the HOA's liability insurance coverage.

News reports on the Zimmerman case have said that he was designated by his HOA as a "captain" of the community's neighborhood watch program.
|

"It is quite unusual to have a resident listed as a security contact," says Allen Warren, an attorney with Chadwick, Washington, Moriarty, Elmore & Bunn in Fairfax, Va. "It's more common to rely on local law enforcement for security. HOAs should never give the impression they are providing security for residents."

...

Hirsch de Haan says that written guidelines must be distributed to all volunteers and to the community at large. The rules should prohibit carrying a weapon while on neighborhood watch duty.

"If the volunteer overstepped the guidelines, the HOA is in much better shape legally if the guidelines are in written form," Hirsch de Haan says. ...

They should be told not to engage in any action other than calling 911 and reporting what they have seen to the local police."


http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal...from-lawsuits-against-your-hoa/#ixzz2MP8Ziyq9



Heck, flyers for the entire community were printed up by the Police with GZ's name on it to be the NW contact; they were posted up all over the common areas - they even had refrigerator magnets with Zimmerman's name on it, then 300 "contact cards" with Zimmerman's name on it.

Wait, I thought his title was "self appointed captain" ?