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Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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#1 you acknowledge we can't control what China does yet claim they are doing things to cut back. The latter isn't supported by the former. Why would they cut back if they don't have to
Batvette won't see this as he put me on ignore in another thread but no-one else has addressed this and I couldn't let it go.

The assumption that people need to be forced to do something which is in their own long term interest is revealing. The Chinese are taking steps to reduce their CO2 emissions even while they grow their economy because they accept the reality of AGW, and know that their country will suffer from its consequences as much as any other.
 
Any graphs of temperatures over a period of more than 20 years (30 years is better though) that have trend lines are "valid" (the trends are statistically significant).
Nonsense.

It's true of global warming because global warming is a fast enough change that 20 years of data is, indeed, usually enough to show it, but it's not true of all trends everywhere. This is the mistake r-j has been making all along.

A much slower change than global warming will need more years of data to be revealed to be statistically signficant, a faster change may need less. The fact that you get a slight upwards or downwards slope when you graph 20 years of data for a single state does not automatically mean that that warming or cooling is statistically signficant.

You can sometimes be pretty sure what the calculation will show just by looking at the steepness of the slope compared to the amplitude variations, but you still need to do it.
 
Apparently it didn't occur to you that I'm neither in favor of nor against all of your arguments. (Probably more in favor of, actually, but I don't think you caught that one either.)

As for pontification...I rather like James Randi. He's the kind of guy who encourages thinking. But you neglected to do that while you were pontificating your position to me.

That would be appropo as Msr Randi was widely castigated in the science community for his totally wrong headed comments on AGW which he very hastily modified.

You have shown nothing of a climate science knowledge and you like many others wear a badge of skepticism to hide underlying ignorance of the topic which at this point in time there is no excuse for.

Randi at least had the grace to mea culpa even tho in that he still did not grasp what GHG and AGW are actually about.
If your views coincide....then this is not the forum section for you.

My commentary was concerned with my amateur confusion about the myriad of natural phenomena that obviously bring about worldwide climate changes and whether we can properly assign the cause to anthropogenic influences. Yes, I'm aware of the massive release of energy -- mostly heat -- that we've produced by exhuming and burning oil, natural gas, and coal. We've also attacked forests and turned them into fuel by converting them into paper at further energy expense, paper that is also burned, in turn.

hp/swift-blog/806-i-am-not-qdenyingq-anything.html

So far not one indication from you shows anything other than a libby ideologue unprepared to acknowledge the reality of AGW, the responsibility it engenders to the biome, emerging economies and the future of industrial society.

Responsible companies, people and even nation states like Sweden and cities like Portland Oregon and others worldwide accept the science, understand there are consequences and work toward a carbon neutral solution.
Sweden is committed to carbon neutral by 2050 and well on it's way.
It can be done with goodwill, technology and admission there is a problem that we have to face collectively.

Are you in that responsible group?
 
For the record, some more from that Randi piece:

I do not, and did not, deny the established fact -- arrived at by extensive scientific research -- that average global temperatures have increased by a bit less than one Celsius degree. My commentary was concerned with my amateur confusion about the myriad of natural phenomena that obviously bring about worldwide climate changes and whether we can properly assign the cause to anthropogenic influences. Yes, I'm aware of the massive release of energy -- mostly heat -- that we've produced by exhuming and burning oil, natural gas, and coal. We've also attacked forests and turned them into fuel by converting them into paper at further energy expense, paper that is also burned, in turn. My remarks, again, are directed at the complexity of determining whether this GW is anthropogenic or not. I do not deny that possibility. In fact, I accept it as quite probable. I remain respectful of science and its participants. I stand outside the walls of academe, in awe.

It's interesting that even at this stage Randi's amateur confusion still extended to the false assumption that it's the heat that humanity have directly caused by burning fossil fuels that has caused the warming rather than the greenhouse gases released. I also don't think he had fully grasped the damage his casual, uninformed remarks would do, which fully justified the reaction they received.
 
Looking for objective data

You never did answer any of the questions regarding what you characterize as "alarmism", so I doubt anyone is able to answer this new question of yours to your content.

Alarmism as I categorize it is the sky is falling people who insist that the only solution to any problem real or imagined is to throw massive amounts of tax dollars at it or pass ultra restrictive laws that would cost so much as to change life in ways that would make it virtually impossible to live without tremendous sacrifice.


Of course there are sites that deal with the science, but as with any subject with a contingent of deniers, there's going to be politics involved.

As I stated in an earlier post, the term "deniers" is inflammatory and makes it seem as if skeptics are on a par with holocaust deniers. Clearly being skeptical of different scientific theories is not on a par with denying the extermination of millions of human beings based on the records and eyewitness testimony of the people who were the exterminators.

I very much doubt you have the capacity to understand the science involved, just based on your contribution to this thread, so I'd say you'd be best off looking at the skeptical science website. (edit)

I like to get at least 2 sources for info so I can judge for myself which one makes more sense to me. Even if I don't grasp the full depth of the science I can get a pretty good idea of who is using more hyperbole than data.


That's because this is a polarized issue. Either you accept science, or you deny it. There's no middle ground.

I agree, but the problem is there are many different disciplines on either side that make statements about this issue. Both sides can't be right, but the call to have people lose their jobs because they express their skepticism with the majority strikes me as questionable at the very least and fascist at worst.

Then what you have read has been a load of tosh.

Like what? Bioengineering where they try and duplicate the effects of a Mt. Pinatubo type eruption? Seems like something that is at least reasonable and controllable and certainly less expensive than most of the other solutions.


Obviously you thought wrong.

Perhaps, but I do try to get the most accurate information I can. I'm not married to either viewpoint right now. I just can't help but have this nagging suspicion that this is going to be one of those things like Global Cooling in the 70's.
 
When one wants to attempt to discredit an issue he opposes, the easiest way is to call it "conspiracy theory".


Either that or understanding individuals with similar ideologies doing similar things is not a conspiracy is above your head?

And if you've got to put words in my mouth, as bolded above... back to kindergarten with you.

This is just one example of why I find your posts confusing. When anybody tries to pin you down on what your beliefs are you change your stance. If scientists are distorting the evidence to keep their jobs as you have said, then that is a conspiracy. I showed you a list on the other thread of scientific bodies who support the idea that global warming is happening and is mostly caused by human activities and asked you if they were falsifying the evidence and you said no. So either you believe their is a conspiracy or you don't. Which is it? A straight answer rather than a discussion about your political beliefs would be nice.
 
Perhaps, but I do try to get the most accurate information I can. I'm not married to either viewpoint right now. I just can't help but have this nagging suspicion that this is going to be one of those things like Global Cooling in the 70's.
That's a myth. A single much publicised and discussed newspaper article gave unwarranted publicity to what was already a minority view among climate scientists. A review of the scientific literature of the 70s showed that there were IIRC already about 3 times as many papers being published which supported warming rather than cooling even then.

ETA: Did you download that Royal Society summary? It really is excellent, written for the interested layman and reasonably brief.
 
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That's not how it works, it's not up to me to refute anything. You presented the premise it's up to you to show it's true.

LOL, pure arrogance. Someone who has already displayed he is part of the problem insists his recognition of the problem is mandatory, that people who are aware of the harm people like him are doing on this issue, must sit up and beg for his approval.

Don't be silly. First there is no such thing as climate CHANGE research only climate research, which like all research is done to understand the world around us. A good deal of climate research isn't even focused on present day climate.

http://www2.cgd.ucar.edu/sections/ccr-climate-change-research

http://www.niccr.nau.edu/


http://www.ccrc.sr.unh.edu/

http://www.purdue.edu/discoverypark/climate/

http://www.daff.gov.au/climatechange/australias-farming-future/climate-change-and-productivity-research

http://www.walker-institute.ac.uk/

http://www.globalchange.umd.edu/

I DO so love it when self ownage comes along. There are a number of links to institutions whose very name makes your assertion just plain ignorant. You really should "do the research", old chap.

What's a pretty serious charge of academic malfeasance you are making. What evidence do you have to back it up and who in particular are you accusing?

All of them, and it's not as evil as it sounds. They're simply following their beliefs and think it's noble. Maybe they don't realize how badly the policy and those like you promoting it are mucking it up.

I'm choosing per person because it seems the most fair to me, but if you think the US should have the same absolute CO2 limit as countries s with 1/20 the population I'm more then willing to hear your arguments that we should focus on a country's total CO2 emissions instead of it's per person emissions.

I'm not interested in quibbling over details, I'm just saying it's bizarre that people are saying how serious the problem is yet only seem to care in making industrialized nations pay based upon past sins. If it's that urgent it shouldn't matter how we got here or who should change the most, total GGE must decrease immediately.

If you don't care that Kyoto was (almost certainly) counterproductive and spend all your time pointing fingers at "denialists" (rather than question your own side if it knows what the hell it's doing) it seems to me that you're not truly concerned about the issue other than having something to use as a tool for political capital.
 
Nobody could possibly miss all the times realscience has been used instead of reasoning.

But the subject was an unbiased site about climate and climate change.

can you Point out bias on RealClimate?
 
LOL, pure arrogance. Someone who has already displayed he is part of the problem insists his recognition of the problem is mandatory, that people who are aware of the harm people like him are doing on this issue, must sit up and beg for his approval.



http://www2.cgd.ucar.edu/sections/ccr-climate-change-research

http://www.niccr.nau.edu/


http://www.ccrc.sr.unh.edu/

http://www.purdue.edu/discoverypark/climate/

http://www.daff.gov.au/climatechange/australias-farming-future/climate-change-and-productivity-research

http://www.walker-institute.ac.uk/

http://www.globalchange.umd.edu/

I DO so love it when self ownage comes along. There are a number of links to institutions whose very name makes your assertion just plain ignorant. You really should "do the research", old chap.



All of them, and it's not as evil as it sounds. They're simply following their beliefs and think it's noble. Maybe they don't realize how badly the policy and those like you promoting it are mucking it up.



I'm not interested in quibbling over details, I'm just saying it's bizarre that people are saying how serious the problem is yet only seem to care in making industrialized nations pay based upon past sins. If it's that urgent it shouldn't matter how we got here or who should change the most, total GGE must decrease immediately.

If you don't care that Kyoto was (almost certainly) counterproductive and spend all your time pointing fingers at "denialists" (rather than question your own side if it knows what the hell it's doing) it seems to me that you're not truly concerned about the issue other than having something to use as a tool for political capital.

total GGE must decrease immediately?

and how will you do that? in Detail. how are you going to convince the INdian government that it cannot develop atm and Needs to reduce their CO2 emissions? and China?

also can you Point out how exactly the Kyoto protocoll was counterproductive?
 
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hehe bout time a anti AGW gov got kicked in the balls.....

The egg dripping off Harper's face looks good on him..... ( he has totally trashed Canada's role in environment earning several Dino of the Day at climate conferences )

ENVIRONMENT
Alberta’s bold plan to cut greenhouse gas emissions stuns Ottawa and oil industry .
SHAWN MCCARTHY AND NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE
OTTAWA and CALGARY — The Globe and Mail

The Alberta government has quietly presented a proposal to sharply increase levies on carbon production and force large oil-industry producers to slash greenhouse gas emissions by as much as 40 per cent on each barrel of production, a long-term plan that has surprised Ottawa and industry executives with its ambition.
more

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...tuns-ottawa-and-oil-industry/article10762621/

snip

“A larger part of the discussion around Keystone has been about greenhouse gas emissions” from the oil sands, said Clare Demerse, director of federal policy with the Pembina Institute. “This is clearly a sector that is under scrutiny right now, and the right answer to that scrutiny is to come out with credible regulations.”

kicking and screaming into reality....
bout bloody time...a large pie in the face to Prime Minister Harper's odious environmental record....:mad:
 
I would like to make it clear that I do not dispute that the earth has gotten warmer only that I have no clear idea about the cause. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. Obviously this has happened before man ever walked the earth, but is that what happening now, I don't know. BTW smarmy, you must be stupid to think that way comments are rejected as being closed minded not to mention just plain rude.
 
That would be appropo as Msr Randi was widely castigated in the science community for his totally wrong headed comments on AGW which he very hastily modified.

You have shown nothing of a climate science knowledge and you like many others wear a badge of skepticism to hide underlying ignorance of the topic which at this point in time there is no excuse for.

Randi at least had the grace to mea culpa even tho in that he still did not grasp what GHG and AGW are actually about.
If your views coincide....then this is not the forum section for you.

He didn't modify anything. Rather, alarmists such as yourself like to strengthen their cause similar to how Christians used to go on witch hunts, so you like to draw the "us vs them" lines to rally more to your cause.

Clearly if she raises her finger in the air just a bit, she's ready to cast a spell rather than pick her nose.

Anyways, you are saying I'm showing nothing but you seem to have completely ignored almost all of my post where I fully addressed that particular talking point of yours.

hp/swift-blog/806-i-am-not-qdenyingq-anything.html

So far not one indication from you shows anything other than a libby ideologue unprepared to acknowledge the reality of AGW, the responsibility it engenders to the biome, emerging economies and the future of industrial society.

Responsible companies, people and even nation states like Sweden and cities like Portland Oregon and others worldwide accept the science, understand there are consequences and work toward a carbon neutral solution.
Sweden is committed to carbon neutral by 2050 and well on it's way.
It can be done with goodwill, technology and admission there is a problem that we have to face collectively.

Are you in that responsible group?

Well "libbies" as you call us, tend to be overwhelmingly in favor of nuclear power. It has almost none of your boogyman in it (that is, carbon footprint) yet your environmentalist movement is doing the "responsible" thing by doing their best to make it too costly to implement because they're afraid of it, instead opting for plastic (another boogyman) solar panels that nobody can afford, or wind power which is impractical for most people because constant fast moving winds don't exist in most places.

You also opt for the "responsible" thing of recycling paper, even though it consumes more of that energy (read: carbon footprint) than simply cutting down another tree. Oh no, we can't kill trees, right? Well, we aren't going to run out of trees from paper any sooner than we are going to run out of potatoes or cucumbers. The trees best suited for paper are actually grown on farms and are selectively bred to produce optimal fibers for that purpose. The non-farm grown trees are harvested in a similar cyclic manner.

The forest population isn't declining due to paper. Nor for lumber. Nor for any other materials for that matter. Rather, the forest population is declining because people in jungle regions need to cut it down to make way for food farms. One way of reducing the landmass required to do that is through genetic engineering of plants to maximize yield. Oh look, another boogyman that environmentalists are trying to kill. Little do they know, though, that we've been doing this already since time immemorial. Ever notice how if you walk out into any wilderness type of your choice, there are lots of plants, but nothing to eat? Because most of the plants that we do eat come from thousands of generations of selectively bred plants that are optimal for our consumption and produce much higher yields of nourishment than you'll ever find in a wild plant (note the distinction between a wild plant and a feral plant.) If you've ever kept up with the banana man incident, you might know that the cavendish banana we all eat literally can't even survive in the wild.

So, tell me more about this "responsible" movement of yours.

Oh, and by the way, did I point out that this "responsible" movement is against something that you're in favor of, therefore making my argument a straw man argument? Guess what, you did the same thing to me numerous times already. Think, don't assume.
 
That's because this is a polarized issue. Either you accept science, or you deny it. There's no middle ground.

That sounds to me more like an argument against religion.

How do you "accept science" exactly? Does that mean we have one side that all thinks the same on every issue, and everybody else is holistic?

Even well renowned scientists within the same field will have disagreements with one another on their theories. That's what empirical science is about, being able to test theories. Peer review involves people being skeptical and even attacking your findings in order to test them.
 
Would anyone like to offer an opinion on the just the facts global warming site? I can't type out the url because I'm new and not allowed but I think anyone should be able to find it.
 
I would like to make it clear that I do not dispute that the earth has gotten warmer only that I have no clear idea about the cause. As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. Obviously this has happened before man ever walked the earth, but is that what happening now, I don't know.
I'm sure you understand that just because something can happen naturally that doesn't mean it can't also be caused by something we do. People died of lung cancer before smoking was invented ...

Climate scientists actually have a pretty good handle on the natural causes of climate change, for example that it's small changes in the earth's orbit that cause the cycle of glaciations/inter-glacials that occur over timescales of tens of thousands of years. If you do a bit of reading you will soon understand why they're so sure the recent warming is not due to natural causes. Again, I recommend the Royal Society summary as a good starting point.
 
Perhaps, but I do try to get the most accurate information I can. I'm not married to either viewpoint right now. I just can't help but have this nagging suspicion that this is going to be one of those things like Global Cooling in the 70's.

This.

I don't really get all of this hate coming from people like macdoc who hold the status quo as an unquestionable dogmatic truth.
 
This.

I don't really get all of this hate coming from people like macdoc who hold the status quo as an unquestionable dogmatic truth.

ist a very srious Problem, the science is known for decades now, the IPCC provides well written reports every few years that Show the latest findings made in climatology. everyone can get those reports and read them.

but instead you mostly get ignorant People making Claims and contradicting Mainstream scientific positions that are not controversial in science and well established. some even go as far as claiming CO2 is no greenhosue gas or that there is no greenhouse effect. and most of them are merely parroting denier Blogs like WUWT without taking the time to do real reading into the Topic.
so the hostility is understandable i think. many People here are dealing with this since many years.
 
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