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Proof of Life After Death!!

It's the sheer arrogance of it that gets me. The assumption that one's own perceptions/subjective experiences/common sense are a more reliable guide to reality than the knowledge and understanding painstakingly acquired over centuries by generations of our ancestors, despite the fact that one of the most important and hard won pieces of knowledge in that precious store is just how fallible and unreliable they are.

Mormons tell us that the way to find out whether the Book of Mormon is true is to meditate on it and see if you get the kind of experience that Mike describes so eloquently, even though the most cursory examination of the actual facts reveals that it's a clumsy fake. They insist that the "burning in the bosom" (their name for the experience) they get trumps any amount of cold hard fact. Do you agree, Mike? Do you, Robin?
 
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Having received this wonderful understanding of the interconnectedness of the universe, have you been able to use this new knowledge to progress medical understanding, or improve communication methods, or anything practical at all? If your revealed awareness is true, it should also be useful, shouldn't it?
 
True Believers... you can't convince them, so might as well join 'em.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste,
And remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons, unless you are in need of sleep.
Rotate your tires.
Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself,
And heed well their advice, even though they be turkeys.
Know what to kiss, and when.
Consider that two wrongs never make a right, but that three do.
Wherever possible, put people on hold.
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
and despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.

Remember The Pueblo.
Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate.
Know yourself. If you need help, call the FBI.
Exercise caution in your daily affairs,
Especially with those persons closest to you -
That lemon on your left, for instance.
Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls
Would scarcely get your feet wet.
Fall not in love therefore. It will stick to your face.
Gracefully surrender the things of youth: birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan.
And let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
Hire people with hooks.
For a good time, call 606-4311. Ask for Ken.
Take heart in the bedeepening gloom
That your dog is finally getting enough cheese.
And reflect that whatever fortune may be your lot,
It could only be worse in Milwaukee.

You are a fluke of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not,
The universe is laughing behind your back.

Therefore, make peace with your god,
Whatever you perceive him to be - hairy thunderer, or cosmic muffin.
With all its hopes, dreams, promises, and urban renewal,
The world continues to deteriorate.
Give up!
 
Having received this wonderful understanding of the interconnectedness of the universe, have you been able to use this new knowledge to progress medical understanding, or improve communication methods, or anything practical at all? If your revealed awareness is true, it should also be useful, shouldn't it?
The beauty of attaining this "knowledge" is that it is practically useless except to make the person claiming to understand it feel somehow superior without the usual hurdle of having to show any evidence of that superiority.
 
Cause and reason are NOT the same.

Science is good where it can find causes. Skepticism cannot dig into the interior realm of every person, neither does science.

The Reason for the Universe to be, is beyond the causes of events and happenings. Those are the means, not the Reason!

The reason, the main reason is only one!

Find it! I won't tell you!

Why do you assume that the the Universe needs a Reason to be?
 
First I never intended to "demonstrate" how personal experience is a way of knowing. Bu it is easy. Stick your finger in the power outlet. You will "know" by personal experience you should not do that.
How do you know great philosophers or scientists "did a lot of thinking"?
They just produced their ideas. Were they a product of a "lot" of thinking? I think genius is the ability of focusing great ideas with little thinking and a lot of intuition.
If you beleive it was "a lot of thinking" then.... prove it!

Great, now show me a spiritual power socket.
 
Aren't most of the things said here being read somewhere?
On the contrary, I am suggesting putting ALL ideas in a basket for a while, and deal with your Higher Self.
Remove the blaming glass from your eye.

Did I say I believe in something? I just said you have the means to KNOW, if you really want to.

If I would think people here is stupid, I would be the greatest stupid of all, "wasting my time here" as I been told MANY times.

No, man, we are just exchanging ideas. Don't let the lower self get in the way!

Love is also a matter of Faith.

Skeptics have Faith in Science. Scientists have Faith in their experiments (but not on their assistants. lol).

Strongly denying faith is to have faith in no faith!

Plank had Faith in his constant.

Guys here have faith I am wrong and everybody else is right....

Faith, faith, faith.... evidence is faith on facts!

Just how High do we have to be to understand this?
 
Dear folks:

Since I got my first contact with JREF forum I was deeply curious. I was tremendously curious about skepticism in multiple forms. I have never before made contact with so many folks under the same line of thought.

Once, I was strongly skeptic myself. I would laugh at anybody's face when I would listen to things beyond pure materialism. I would see "morons" everywhere and I always looked down at "those" speaking nonsense, without any evidence on what they claimed.

It was one simple day, no books, no readings, no chat.... Suddenly, while I was sitting in contemplation of the wonders of Nature, during a short trip to the country side, the amazing Order of nature slapped my face.

Abruptly, I could not only see the perfect order in everything but I also could see the process taking place.

To the moment, I was a paladin of evolution theories, I was a Darwin reverend and I could see everything apart of everything else, each thing doing it's lonely dance, its lonely evolution from nowhere into anywhere.

I knew evolution meaning was "change", not order or progress. Fellows would tell me evolution has no purpose, it just happens, randomly, disorderly. We humans are the product of chance, without purpose, without aim, without sense of evolutionary direction.

But there I was, totally absorbed, watching not only an immense and perfect order but also a clear stepping of change in a forward direction. I said: "This I am seeing is not evolution. Evolution is just change. There is no designer, no architect..." I repeated to myself.

But there in front of me was not anymore a bunch, a large bunch of things and creatures. In it's place there it was: An incredibly complex, single and whole entity.... The Universe!

I could then see the interconnection linking all apparently separated things. I didn't know many years later, it would be called the Quantum world, the Interconnecting plasma, the Fundamental Totum...

Then I saw how the supposed to be serendipitous evolution was instead a perfect plan. I could see with bright light how the Totum transformed each simple particle into microorganisms, and how those would gain extraordinary complexity. A perfect architecture was taking place all around extending in a smooth flow until reaching me.

Then I realized I was made by the Totum as to be the witness of such great labor. I could understand it! I could see it was happening right before my eyes!

My mission on Life and Earth was so clear I laughed for a long time. The minute Consciousness spread through all the Totum was being condensed in my own organism, where billions of microorganisms converged their grain of consciousness in a single being.

A creature capable of seeing the dance of sublime architecture! I understood then The Totum was working towards higher levels of consciousness minute by minute, day by day, year by year... times through times...

The notion of perfect order, purpose and direction dissolved the fragmented ideas of an evolution, random, non directed and blind.

The perfect perception took me over towards in time. I could see the trees dying and coming back. I could see how flowers would remember their design and cyclically reappearing and maintaining their own idea of self...

Then I could understand how my own life was a perfect design, to encapsulate a small part of the Totum full Consciousness so it could watch itself being! Wonder of wonders!

The whole Universe in front of my eyes was the substantial proof of itself. A clear evidence of magnificent engineering, of astonishing art and beauty!

Of course I could see also, this was an endless process, always going forward, beyond time and limited life spans.

All this brought me to understand the Eternity of Life, the limitless expansion of pure Consciousness and the ultra clear notion of Eternal Life and Improvement.

Now....

I realize I am in the middle of a fruitless discussion. Honest people trying to erase my perception with clouds of uncertainty and blur. I know they do it in "good faith"...

I also realize this discussion is endless and getting nowhere. Neither will I drop my sublime understanding of the Totum, neither the good folks here would drop their total demand for futile proof after proof.... For ever.

Good folks failed to see the higher realms of Global Interconnection and perfection. I was not intending to change that, because I knew of my prior mental state and realized each and everyone will eventually see "the thing" as it actually is. Sooner or later. But the Totum designed the process so no one will escape from full realization of Himself.

We should consider the subject exhausted and look forward to other possibilities.

If most don't want Life After Death... So be it!
If some want it... Go... get it!

One thing is: Our real Essence is Indestructible, eternal, Perfect, Sapient, Just and Loving.

I am not saying I am going away. I am just saying I find this thread reached an endless loop, like a black hole....

You got a warm glow and suddenly understand the true nature of the universe?

Been there, done that, the mushrooms wore off.
 
It's the sheer arrogance of it that gets me. The assumption that one's own perceptions/subjective experiences/common sense are a more reliable guide to reality than the knowledge and understanding painstakingly acquired over centuries by generations of our ancestors, despite the fact that one of the most important and hard won pieces of knowledge in that precious store is just how fallible and unreliable they are.

Mormons tell us that the way to find out whether the Book of Mormon is true is to meditate on it and see if you get the kind of experience that Mike describes so eloquently, even though the most cursory examination of the actual facts reveals that it's a clumsy fake. They insist that the "burning in the bosom" (their name for the experience) they get trumps any amount of cold hard fact. Do you agree, Mike? Do you, Robin?
A burning in the bosom would not be enough evidence...for me, anyway. I would need more ( hang on a sec while I put on my slippers). I have read a lot of Janadele's LDS thread and even added my two cents there. Yes, it is obvious to me that the cold hard facts render much of what their religion is based upon untrue. But, that in no way means there is no God. Does anyone on here believe that just because things written in the Book of Mormon or in the Bible are false = there is no God ? Cause that would be a pretty big leap.
 
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Yes, it is obvious to me that the cold hard facts render much of what their religion is based upon untrue. But, that in no way means there is no God. Does anyone on here believe that just because things written in the Book of Mormon or in the Bible are false = there is no God ? Cause that would be a pretty big leap.
I have no idea how you got that from my post. My point is that the LDS example proves that subjective experiences of the kind described by Mike are not a reliable guide to reality. Likewise there are numerous examples of the "common sense" you rely on to guide you when deciding when coincidences are meaningful giving provably wrong answers.
 
Does anyone on here believe that just because things written in the Book of Mormon or in the Bible are false = there is no God ? Cause that would be a pretty big leap.

No, there are many more reasons to believe there is no God.

The things written in the religious texts can only lead one to an understanding that the things written are false and therefore any claims made by followers of those texts which are based upon those texts are also false.
 
I have no idea how you got that from my post. My point is that the LDS example proves that subjective experiences of the kind described by Mike are not a reliable guide to reality. Likewise there are numerous examples of the "common sense" you rely on to guide you when deciding when coincidences are meaningful giving provably wrong answers.
I would describe Mike's experience as an epiphany. I would describe Janadele's "burning in the bosom" as a burning in the bosom.
 
No, there are many more reasons to believe there is no God.

The things written in the religious texts can only lead one to an understanding that the things written are false and therefore any claims made by followers of those texts which are based upon those texts are also false.
Makes sense to me. I don't agree, though.
 
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I would describe Mike's experience as an epiphany. I would describe Janadele's "burning in the bosom" as a burning in the bosom.
I don't care how you describe them. The point is that subjective experiences which the experiencer is absolutely certain are revealing important insights into the nature of reality can sometimes be proved to be wrong. So such experiences are not a reliable guide to reality, no matter how compelling the experiencer finds them.

Likewise 'common sense' is frequently proven wrong, so your reliance on it to determine what to believe is also unjustified.
 
Actually my MLS degree and experience working as a librarian the past 23 years is a good indicator that perhaps I already have done a lot of research about fake mediums and the ways they try to trick people. But then again if you had read my link and all the comments you would already know that. But listen I don't have time to beg anyone to read my link I just mistakenly thought the people on this site were seeking knowledge. Obviously I was wrong.

every single "medium" on this planet are fake. they are either misstaken about their ability or are scamming People and know very well ist a scamm.

you have fallen for yet anothe scammer.
 
I don't care how you describe them. The point is that subjective experiences which the experiencer is absolutely certain are revealing important insights into the nature of reality can sometimes be proved to be wrong. So such experiences are not a reliable guide to reality, no matter how compelling the experiencer finds them.

Likewise 'common sense' is frequently proven wrong, so your reliance on it to determine what to believe is also unjustified.
A story if I may....my oldest brother is extremely smart...Harvard educated and all. Obviously much smarter than me or most. One day we were at his house and he was trying to open some blinds but they were stuck. He kept trying. No luck. My husband gets up to try, took him a sec to figure out what was wrong, fixed it, and opened the blinds no problem. If it weren't for my husband, my brilliant brother would STILL be trying to open those blinds. We all had a good laugh about it! My point? I think most of you here are indeed very, very smart. Smarter than me. I also think you are missing the obvious. Just like my brother.
 
A story if I may....my oldest brother is extremely smart...Harvard educated and all. Obviously much smarter than me or most. One day we were at his house and he was trying to open some blinds but they were stuck. He kept trying. No luck. My husband gets up to try, took him a sec to figure out what was wrong, fixed it, and opened the blinds no problem. If it weren't for my husband, my brilliant brother would STILL be trying to open those blinds. We all had a good laugh about it! My point? I think most of you here are indeed very, very smart. Smarter than me. I also think you are missing the obvious. Just like my brother.

the day any medium will prove his abilities under scientific testing i will be convinced that there are mediums. untill then, they are all fakes. every single one of them. i think you are missing the obvious, evidence.
 
A story if I may....my oldest brother is extremely smart...Harvard educated and all. Obviously much smarter than me or most. One day we were at his house and he was trying to open some blinds but they were stuck. He kept trying. No luck. My husband gets up to try, took him a sec to figure out what was wrong, fixed it, and opened the blinds no problem. If it weren't for my husband, my brilliant brother would STILL be trying to open those blinds. We all had a good laugh about it! My point? I think most of you here are indeed very, very smart. Smarter than me. I also think you are missing the obvious. Just like my brother.
I think you're wrong. You're missing the non-obvious, because it takes a little research and some non-intuitive mathematical understanding to grasp it.

Have you ever taken a look in the Challenge Applications subforum? The belief of almost every applicant that they have a paranormal ability is down to the fact that they have vastly underestimated how often coincidences occur. Like you, their common sense tells them that they wouldn't get the success rate they do (whether it's a dowser finding water, an astrologer or psychic producing apparently accurate readings etc) if coincidence was all that was going on. Yet whenever they are tested under circumstances where the success rate due to coincidence can be calculated in advance, they never do any better than that. Understand that they don't do a a bit better than chance, but not quite enough better for the difference to be statistically significant; their results are always well within the results that would be expected by chance.

You refuse to believe that your experiences can be explained by coincidence, despite being pointed to plenty of supporting evidence. That's up to you, but please don't try to pretend that we are the ones who are ignoring evidence.
 

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