More important question, Garrette, is what criteria do YOU use?
Proof of Life After Death!!
- Thread starter Robin1
- Start date
-
- Tags
- john edward mediums psychics
Common sense.
And yet others disagree on what that constitutes and on the conclusion. How would an outside observer know that your common sense is right and mine is wrong?
I assume the null hypothesis until evidence sufficient to overturn it is presented. In other words, I allow those with the claim to make their case.
There does not need to be a reason, just as La Place had no need of the god hypothesis
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2009
- Messages
- 12,331
Pixel42, thanks for the perspective.
Mike, that's precisely how you made that stupid error about 'Sanctus Sanctorum', remember?
Yes, nutty guy from my blog made me paranoid.
See, here's the problem with that. My common sense tells me that since there's never been any objective evidence for the paranormal, a paranormal explanation cannot be concluded without novel confirmatory data.
Marcus
Illuminator
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 3,857
Incorrect. Faith is belief without evidence (like your faith that an afterlife exists.) Skeptics require evidence.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Common sense says the earth is flat.
wasapi
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- May 27, 2008
- Messages
- 17,585
Sorry he put you in that position. I would really like to talk to you, friendly talk, no harassment, if you care to pm me.
Thanks.
I would be happy to talk to you. I think I have to add you to contacts or something like that. Will try to do.
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,982
I retract my bundling.
I like the way you said this.
I did not make myself unpopular among new age groups, but I really didn't belong to many. When I was unpopular, it was because I thought I had figured out who had the truth and if someone else's belief conflicted with mine, I assumed they, or their spiritual teacher, must be wrong.
Otherwise, the rest of it applies to me, too. I also continually changed and updated my understanding and beliefs based on information available to me.
And absolutely, it was the availability of the information and of people to discuss it with that impacted me that way too.
I wonder if that is a common denominator with believers who eventually become nonbelievers and skeptics: We always were skeptics. We thought we were following the evidence as believers, and when the evidence began to strongly lead in the opposite direction, we were willing to follow it there, too.
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
No, Your making the claim, what criteria do you use.
ExMinister, I owe you an apology. I really did think at the time that you were being purposely dishonest and hurtful, but I realize now you truly believed what you said. I got caught up in the moment. I think you are very nice and honest. And your joke about see this post first and then that post was really very funny! Please accept my apologies.
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,982
It was never my intention to be hurtful, much less dishonest. But I realize it has gotten heated at times. And I do realize my humor can be a little snarky. Anyway, very much appreciated!
MikeAparicio
Unregistered
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
- Messages
- 304
Time for a peace pipe!
Dear folks:
Since I got my first contact with JREF forum I was deeply curious. I was tremendously curious about skepticism in multiple forms. I have never before made contact with so many folks under the same line of thought.
Once, I was strongly skeptic myself. I would laugh at anybody's face when I would listen to things beyond pure materialism. I would see "morons" everywhere and I always looked down at "those" speaking nonsense, without any evidence on what they claimed.
It was one simple day, no books, no readings, no chat.... Suddenly, while I was sitting in contemplation of the wonders of Nature, during a short trip to the country side, the amazing Order of nature slapped my face.
Abruptly, I could not only see the perfect order in everything but I also could see the process taking place.
To the moment, I was a paladin of evolution theories, I was a Darwin reverend and I could see everything apart of everything else, each thing doing it's lonely dance, its lonely evolution from nowhere into anywhere.
I knew evolution meaning was "change", not order or progress. Fellows would tell me evolution has no purpose, it just happens, randomly, disorderly. We humans are the product of chance, without purpose, without aim, without sense of evolutionary direction.
But there I was, totally absorbed, watching not only an immense and perfect order but also a clear stepping of change in a forward direction. I said: "This I am seeing is not evolution. Evolution is just change. There is no designer, no architect..." I repeated to myself.
But there in front of me was not anymore a bunch, a large bunch of things and creatures. In it's place there it was: An incredibly complex, single and whole entity.... The Universe!
I could then see the interconnection linking all apparently separated things. I didn't know many years later, it would be called the Quantum world, the Interconnecting plasma, the Fundamental Totum...
Then I saw how the supposed to be serendipitous evolution was instead a perfect plan. I could see with bright light how the Totum transformed each simple particle into microorganisms, and how those would gain extraordinary complexity. A perfect architecture was taking place all around extending in a smooth flow until reaching me.
Then I realized I was made by the Totum as to be the witness of such great labor. I could understand it! I could see it was happening right before my eyes!
My mission on Life and Earth was so clear I laughed for a long time. The minute Consciousness spread through all the Totum was being condensed in my own organism, where billions of microorganisms converged their grain of consciousness in a single being.
A creature capable of seeing the dance of sublime architecture! I understood then The Totum was working towards higher levels of consciousness minute by minute, day by day, year by year... times through times...
The notion of perfect order, purpose and direction dissolved the fragmented ideas of an evolution, random, non directed and blind.
The perfect perception took me over towards in time. I could see the trees dying and coming back. I could see how flowers would remember their design and cyclically reappearing and maintaining their own idea of self...
Then I could understand how my own life was a perfect design, to encapsulate a small part of the Totum full Consciousness so it could watch itself being! Wonder of wonders!
The whole Universe in front of my eyes was the substantial proof of itself. A clear evidence of magnificent engineering, of astonishing art and beauty!
Of course I could see also, this was an endless process, always going forward, beyond time and limited life spans.
All this brought me to understand the Eternity of Life, the limitless expansion of pure Consciousness and the ultra clear notion of Eternal Life and Improvement.
Now....
I realize I am in the middle of a fruitless discussion. Honest people trying to erase my perception with clouds of uncertainty and blur. I know they do it in "good faith"...
I also realize this discussion is endless and getting nowhere. Neither will I drop my sublime understanding of the Totum, neither the good folks here would drop their total demand for futile proof after proof.... For ever.
Good folks failed to see the higher realms of Global Interconnection and perfection. I was not intending to change that, because I knew of my prior mental state and realized each and everyone will eventually see "the thing" as it actually is. Sooner or later. But the Totum designed the process so no one will escape from full realization of Himself.
We should consider the subject exhausted and look forward to other possibilities.
If most don't want Life After Death... So be it!
If some want it... Go... get it!
One thing is: Our real Essence is Indestructible, eternal, Perfect, Sapient, Just and Loving.
I am not saying I am going away. I am just saying I find this thread reached an endless loop, like a black hole....
Dear folks:
Since I got my first contact with JREF forum I was deeply curious. I was tremendously curious about skepticism in multiple forms. I have never before made contact with so many folks under the same line of thought.
Once, I was strongly skeptic myself. I would laugh at anybody's face when I would listen to things beyond pure materialism. I would see "morons" everywhere and I always looked down at "those" speaking nonsense, without any evidence on what they claimed.
It was one simple day, no books, no readings, no chat.... Suddenly, while I was sitting in contemplation of the wonders of Nature, during a short trip to the country side, the amazing Order of nature slapped my face.
Abruptly, I could not only see the perfect order in everything but I also could see the process taking place.
To the moment, I was a paladin of evolution theories, I was a Darwin reverend and I could see everything apart of everything else, each thing doing it's lonely dance, its lonely evolution from nowhere into anywhere.
I knew evolution meaning was "change", not order or progress. Fellows would tell me evolution has no purpose, it just happens, randomly, disorderly. We humans are the product of chance, without purpose, without aim, without sense of evolutionary direction.
But there I was, totally absorbed, watching not only an immense and perfect order but also a clear stepping of change in a forward direction. I said: "This I am seeing is not evolution. Evolution is just change. There is no designer, no architect..." I repeated to myself.
But there in front of me was not anymore a bunch, a large bunch of things and creatures. In it's place there it was: An incredibly complex, single and whole entity.... The Universe!
I could then see the interconnection linking all apparently separated things. I didn't know many years later, it would be called the Quantum world, the Interconnecting plasma, the Fundamental Totum...
Then I saw how the supposed to be serendipitous evolution was instead a perfect plan. I could see with bright light how the Totum transformed each simple particle into microorganisms, and how those would gain extraordinary complexity. A perfect architecture was taking place all around extending in a smooth flow until reaching me.
Then I realized I was made by the Totum as to be the witness of such great labor. I could understand it! I could see it was happening right before my eyes!
My mission on Life and Earth was so clear I laughed for a long time. The minute Consciousness spread through all the Totum was being condensed in my own organism, where billions of microorganisms converged their grain of consciousness in a single being.
A creature capable of seeing the dance of sublime architecture! I understood then The Totum was working towards higher levels of consciousness minute by minute, day by day, year by year... times through times...
The notion of perfect order, purpose and direction dissolved the fragmented ideas of an evolution, random, non directed and blind.
The perfect perception took me over towards in time. I could see the trees dying and coming back. I could see how flowers would remember their design and cyclically reappearing and maintaining their own idea of self...
Then I could understand how my own life was a perfect design, to encapsulate a small part of the Totum full Consciousness so it could watch itself being! Wonder of wonders!
The whole Universe in front of my eyes was the substantial proof of itself. A clear evidence of magnificent engineering, of astonishing art and beauty!
Of course I could see also, this was an endless process, always going forward, beyond time and limited life spans.
All this brought me to understand the Eternity of Life, the limitless expansion of pure Consciousness and the ultra clear notion of Eternal Life and Improvement.
Now....
I realize I am in the middle of a fruitless discussion. Honest people trying to erase my perception with clouds of uncertainty and blur. I know they do it in "good faith"...
I also realize this discussion is endless and getting nowhere. Neither will I drop my sublime understanding of the Totum, neither the good folks here would drop their total demand for futile proof after proof.... For ever.
Good folks failed to see the higher realms of Global Interconnection and perfection. I was not intending to change that, because I knew of my prior mental state and realized each and everyone will eventually see "the thing" as it actually is. Sooner or later. But the Totum designed the process so no one will escape from full realization of Himself.
We should consider the subject exhausted and look forward to other possibilities.
If most don't want Life After Death... So be it!
If some want it... Go... get it!
One thing is: Our real Essence is Indestructible, eternal, Perfect, Sapient, Just and Loving.
I am not saying I am going away. I am just saying I find this thread reached an endless loop, like a black hole....
jsfisher
ETcorngods survivor
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2005
- Messages
- 24,532
Yes, that is all understandable. The thread topic is proof of life after death. You have none. Evidence might be a good starting point for a discussion, but you have none of that, either.
Bye.
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,982
MikeA, not sure what you hope to gain from being in a skeptical/critical thinking forum when you are already convinced your experience is a reflection of reality (not that I want you to go away).
But as far as the black hole/endless loop, perhaps it might help to consider how YOU would have reacted when you were skeptical of such things had someone told you about an experience like that.
Maybe you would listen and acknowledge the importance of the experience to the other person. Maybe you are even somewhat open to the existence of an afterlife and consider the person MIGHT be onto something. But would it CONVINCE you that this person's vision was anything more than a creative experience generated by this person's brain? Would this person's experience have been convincing evidence to YOU that there is an afterlife?
If not, consider why. It isn't so much that you don't believe the experience happened. It's that you know that the most rational and logical thing to do is to FIRST look for an ordinary explanation. And that would be to explain it as a brain-based experience. IF that fails, then maybe you will entertain a non-ordinary one.
But you realize that the person who had the experience may have more difficulty buying any explanation that isn't spiritual. Because it FELT real to them. And not just a little real, but amazingly real.
There are a lot of people with such experiences. I know a few and I know how life-changing they can be. I suspect many people who have had near-death experiences fall into this category.
They are impressive experiences for the person who has had them, but to anyone else they are, and can only ever be, someone else's experience. And even if you could experience something similar, it is not sufficient to be proof of an afterlife. It is evidence that two brains are capable of experiencing something very similar.
Have you read much on the brain and consciousness? I ask because what if you are a neurologist who has had epileptic patients with similar wondrous and transcendental experiences? Or a neuroscientist who understands well the kinds of spiritual experiences that are related to the temporal lobes? The Spiritual Doorway to the Brain is quite an interesting look at that.
Maybe you are, like many here, just someone who has read and followed such research, thus making you also more inclined to view this person's experience as not at all unusual for a human brain?
Then, this type of personal story is unlikely to represent convincing evidence of an afterlife for you, no matter the intensity of the experience, the intelligence, or the sincerity of the person having it.
And that is pretty much where it stands here.
At any rate, I am rambling. Too much coffee too late and I write these crazy long posts.
As if someone might actually be drinking enoughcoffee to read them. 
But as far as the black hole/endless loop, perhaps it might help to consider how YOU would have reacted when you were skeptical of such things had someone told you about an experience like that.
Maybe you would listen and acknowledge the importance of the experience to the other person. Maybe you are even somewhat open to the existence of an afterlife and consider the person MIGHT be onto something. But would it CONVINCE you that this person's vision was anything more than a creative experience generated by this person's brain? Would this person's experience have been convincing evidence to YOU that there is an afterlife?
If not, consider why. It isn't so much that you don't believe the experience happened. It's that you know that the most rational and logical thing to do is to FIRST look for an ordinary explanation. And that would be to explain it as a brain-based experience. IF that fails, then maybe you will entertain a non-ordinary one.
But you realize that the person who had the experience may have more difficulty buying any explanation that isn't spiritual. Because it FELT real to them. And not just a little real, but amazingly real.
There are a lot of people with such experiences. I know a few and I know how life-changing they can be. I suspect many people who have had near-death experiences fall into this category.
They are impressive experiences for the person who has had them, but to anyone else they are, and can only ever be, someone else's experience. And even if you could experience something similar, it is not sufficient to be proof of an afterlife. It is evidence that two brains are capable of experiencing something very similar.
Have you read much on the brain and consciousness? I ask because what if you are a neurologist who has had epileptic patients with similar wondrous and transcendental experiences? Or a neuroscientist who understands well the kinds of spiritual experiences that are related to the temporal lobes? The Spiritual Doorway to the Brain is quite an interesting look at that.
Maybe you are, like many here, just someone who has read and followed such research, thus making you also more inclined to view this person's experience as not at all unusual for a human brain?
Then, this type of personal story is unlikely to represent convincing evidence of an afterlife for you, no matter the intensity of the experience, the intelligence, or the sincerity of the person having it.
And that is pretty much where it stands here.
At any rate, I am rambling. Too much coffee too late and I write these crazy long posts.
As if someone might actually be drinking enough