Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Darkman]

It's sucks to be hit on the back of your head .. or having it smashed on something hard...

TRUST ME!

Your senses for SELF-SAVIOR and SELF-PROTECTION are multiplied by dozens of times when something like that occurs....

 

[phonebook]

He could have avoided that beating if he had just kept to his own business and left an innocent stranger alone. I'm a 48-year old woman and I would have given GZ the beatdown of his life if he dared approached me in that manner.

And what if this "innocent stranger" was actually a criminal? How is one supposed to distinguish that by ignoring those they find suspicious? GZ made the right move by calling the police. It probably would have ended up being a non-issue had the police arrived, questioned TM, and sent them both on their way. Someone made a confrontation happen though, and one of them got violent first. Unless you want to believe GZ's injuries were self-inflicted, all of his injuries occurred before the shot, and TM was uninjured up until that point (save for an abrasion on his left fourth finger; make a fist and you might get an idea of how that came about).

 

[sgtbaker]

You posted your supposition that he had time to get home. Again, it's not evidence, it's speculation.

The idea that TM had time to get home, he didn't get home, therefor he went back to beat up GZ is speculation. Mathematically breaking down walking speed and comparing that to distance to show that someone did have ample time to get him is not speculation. Such measures are used quite often as evidence to either prove or disprove a criminal accusation in investigations as well as court cases.

I just want to add, before I get jumped that I don't think it is particularly relevant because TM was under no legal obligation to go home.

 

[Dan O.]

Punching one however .. on the nose or elsewhere IS.

Darkman, is it ever permitted to punch someone on the nose?

 

[Alt+F4]

TM could have avoilded starting the fight with GZ .. punching him in the nose .. breaking his nose and smashing his head......

Learn to talk it over people .. try to get along .. try to defuse the situation .. not inflate it... READ MY ABOVE post on that.

Many teenagers have not yet developed those skills, there is a reason why juvenile justice is different than adult justice. The last part of our brain to develop is the prefrontal cortex which involvs judgment, impulse control and emotions.

In adults, various parts of the brain work together to evaluate choices, make decisions and act accordingly in each situation. The teenage brain doesn't always work like this.

GZ made a horrible decision, TM was only defending himself in the best way he could.

 

[sgtbaker]

And what if this "innocent stranger" was actually a criminal? How is one supposed to distinguish that by ignoring those they find suspicious? GZ made the right move by calling the police. It probably would have ended up being a non-issue had the police arrived, questioned TM, and sent them both on their way. Someone made a confrontation happen though, and one of them got violent first. Unless you want to believe GZ's injuries were self-inflicted, all of his injuries occurred before the shot, and TM was uninjured up until that point (save for an abrasion on his left fourth finger; make a fist and you might get an idea of how that came about).

I'll tell you what that means, he was as crappy at throwing punches as I am. I always injure my ring finger and my pinky knuckles.

 

[Darkman]

Darkman, is it ever permitted to punch someone on the nose?

In Boxing or UFC for example it's permitted .. It's NOT an offense to do so there..

cuz it's a SPORT ..and both parties agreed to participate in that kind of past-time

But to just punch someone in the nose IS an OFFENSE

---------

Easier to talk here .. but if someone walked up to you and punched you in the NOSE ... pretty sure you d consider that an OFFENSE ...

 

[Dan O.]

The above is your rationalization, none of which matches her comments quoted above.

The word "solely" in this thread is yours and yours alone. That's where I started and that's where I'll leave it.

 

[bynmdsue]

Minus Witness 8 (or DeeDee), what exactly does the prosecution have? If they have to toss her completely what is left for them to make thier case?

 

[phonebook]

Many teenagers have not yet developed those skills, there is a reason why juvenile justice is different than adult justice. The last part of our brain to develop is the prefrontal cortex which involvs judgment, impulse control and emotions.

Had 17 year-old TM murdered GZ, and Angela Corey been the prosecutor, you can bet your behind that she would have charged him as an adult. She did that for a pre-teen, a 12 year-old, so why not someone less than a year from being a legal adult?

In adults, various parts of the brain work together to evaluate choices, make decisions and act accordingly in each situation. The teenage brain doesn't always work like this.

Adults, as in 18+ year-old teenagers? Is this alteration of the way the brain functions something that happens instantaneously? Does it occur during the first sleep cycle following someone's 18th birthday?

GZ made a horrible decision, TM was only defending himself in the best way he could.

TM was defending himself from what exactly?

 

[Alt+F4]

And what if this "innocent stranger" was actually a criminal?

Call 911. No one was in immediate danger so just call the cops and walk/drive away.

How is one supposed to distinguish that by ignoring those they find suspicious?

Call 911. Maybe two or three times I've seen what I would define as "suspicious behavior". I called the cops. That is what we pay them for.

Someone made a confrontation happen though, and one of them got violent first. Unless you want to believe GZ's injuries were self-inflicted, all of his injuries occurred before the shot, and TM was uninjured up until that point (save for an abrasion on his left fourth finger; make a fist and you might get an idea of how that came about).

Of course GZ's injuries were not self-inflicted but he got what he deserved. If you are a teenager being approached by an adult for no reason that teenager has every right to defend himself.

 

[Darkman]

Many teenagers have not yet developed those skills, there is a reason why juvenile justice is different than adult justice. The last part of our brain to develop is the prefrontal cortex which involvs judgment, impulse control and emotions.

In adults, various parts of the brain work together to evaluate choices, make decisions and act accordingly in each situation. The teenage brain doesn't always work like this.

GZ made a horrible decision, TM was only defending himself in the best way he could.

Alt....
The whole incident is VERY unfortunate .. I agree..

And teens not being "totally" adults (even though they might think so) .. I also agree..

But when those teens commit an OFFENSE .. they DO commit an offense..

Just look what happened few days ago .. when those 2 teens shot the little baby.

They will be charged with murder ... - so to say .. "Oh! .. they are teens .. not developed yet.." - doesn't fly .. the older one who is 17 .. is actually, more likely, will be charged as an adult for sure.

 

[Alt+F4]

Had 17 year-old TM murdered GZ,...

But that's not what happened, right?

Adults, as in 18+ year-old teenagers? Is this alteration of the way the brain functions something that happens instantaneously? Does it occur during the first sleep cycle following someone's 18th birthday?

Teenagers make poor decisions, it's common knowledge among anyone who knows anything about teenagers (I do).

TM was defending himself from what exactly?

A stranger confronting him at night. He did nothing other than punch the guy and slam his head which resulted in no serious, lasting injuries. Wouldn't you want your kid to do the same thing if confronted by a strange man at night?

 

[phonebook]

The word "solely" in this thread is yours and yours alone. That's where I started and that's where I'll leave it.

I see. Fingers in your ears again, just like the dispatcher being fine with GZ's directions to his truck, despite immediately asking for an address after GZ gives him those directions. And just like a dispatcher would have a map right in front of him, a map that would have brought him to 1111 retreat view circle, which is right on the corner of RVC and Twin Trees Lane, yet the dispatcher never mentions TTL. Fingers in your ears.

 

[Unabogie]

This is a skeptic forum. If you'd like to provide links to your claims, I'll be happy to read them and try to see how you come to your conclusions.

Don't forget, those same calls demonstrate that GZ never tried to catch anyone.

That's just untrue. We know that he saw someone who he believed was stealing a TV set and he engaged in a pursuit, by car, of "the suspect". BY CAR! He got into a car, and followed a stranger in order to not let him "get away".

And of course we know that he ran out of his truck to catch this "suspect" because we can understand the plain meaning of "****, he's running" followed by the sound of a person running. We understand the plain meaning of "they''ll meet you at the mailbox" followed by "actually, can you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?" We can notice that he called his victim "the suspect" as if he were a cop.

Either way, it's a fact that he's tried to "catch" people before. And it goes back years.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The idea that TM had time to get home, he didn't get home, therefor he went back to beat up GZ is speculation. Mathematically breaking down walking speed and comparing that to distance to show that someone did have ample time to get him is not speculation. Such measures are used quite often as evidence to either prove or disprove a criminal accusation in investigations as well as court cases.

I just want to add, before I get jumped that I don't think it is particularly relevant because TM was under no legal obligation to go home.

No, he was under no obligation to go home, or anywhere else.

However, if he were scared and feeling threatened, he and a few options. Call the police and/or an adult. Have the person on the phone with him hang up and call the police and/or an adult. Knock on one of the neighbors doors. Move to well lit area.

He did none of those things. To me, that's evidence he didn't actually feel scared or threatened, and had no interest in making it back to home.

 

[Alt+F4]

Just look what happened few days ago .. when those 2 teens shot the little baby.

They will be charged with murder ... - so to say .. "Oh! .. they are teens .. not developed yet.." - doesn't fly .. the older one who is 17 .. is actually, more likely, will be charged as an adult for sure.

I'm not saying that teenagers are less culpable for crimes they commit, but in this case I see nothing other than a scared teenager defending himself in a non-lethal way.

As an adult GZ had no right to confront ANYONE (teenager or adult) unless someone's life was in danger. Since he didn't understand teenagers he had no right to confront TM, that decision was for the police.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

That's just untrue. We know that he saw someone who he believed was stealing a TV set and he engaged in a pursuit, by car, of "the suspect". BY CAR! He got into a car, and followed a stranger in order to not let him "get away".

Evidence he was actually trying to catch that person, and not just follow them (while speaking with the Sherrif, IIRC)?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You posted your supposition that he had time to get home. Again, it's not evidence, it's speculation.

And apparently flawless speculation, since you chose to quibble about evidence versus speculation, instead of pointing out any flaws you might have found with my reasoning.

Don't be surprised if the next time you ask for further clarification, none is forthcoming.

 

[Dan O.]

I read the link and though the tech talk is a bit over my head in that forum, I tried to focus on the latency of all the services they provide. It's not that I don't trust your analysis, I don't fully understand what it is saying. I thought you were explaining it in the follow up post. There is enough milliseconds to account for the delay and the reaction time to "which way..."

Are you using the one way delay or the round trip delay? Earlier in this thread, if you scroll back a few pages to the previous pretty picture I posted, we were talking about echo noises. These are caused by the phones not fully canceling the echo to keep you from hearing your own voice delayed by the round trip time through the other phone and back. A posted a table of a few of these echos and the shortest ones were over 300ms. The actuall delay is dynamic and depends on the carrier signal quality but there will always be a minimum delay built into the phone to handle packet reconstruction and even the echo canceling.

I was generous and used the shortest possible round trip delay even though the measured delays were longer. I used the shortest possible response time even though this is for a response to a specific stimulus that the athletes train for and not an unexpected event. I came up with a total minimum response time of 400ms (0.4 seconds).

Measuring backwards from the start of the first noise points to right after the Dispatcher says "which".

On the tape it sounds like George is exiting his truck after the dispatcher finishes the question, in reality, George is jumping the gun.

(at best, George is on a "which" hunt)