Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Are you implying that's impossible? I assure you it's not.

Others have said it's impossible TM said anything after being shot in the heart - again, entirely false. Very possible. I'm aware of an instance where a man was shot in the heart and spoke about the same amount GZ claims TM did before expiring.

A young man in the kind of physical condition TM was in, could absolutely have enough energy level to do what GZ describes, including get up off him, stumble, and say things.

What kind of physical condition was he in?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

#4 is just completely something you made up.

Not exactly. It really is in the operating guidelines for a defibrillator, that if the subject has a phone on them you grab it, and toss it as far as you can.

Cell phones and other electronic devices can disrupt the analyzing phase of the AED. Check for a cell phone on the patient and remove it to a distance of 6 feet or more. This will include your cell phone and any bystander who is carrying one. (If time is crucial, throw the cell phone as far as possible, don't take precious seconds to walk it somewhere. Remember, life over limb (or possessions, in this case.)

That's from the wiki guidelines to using the device.

Do I know for a fact the paramedics began preparations for using a defibrillator? No, I don't. That's why I declared this as speculation. It's an explanation (which I favor) for why TM's phone ended up where it did, that's all.

 

[12AX7]

Are you implying that's impossible? I assure you it's not.

Others have said it's impossible TM said anything after being shot in the heart - again, entirely false. Very possible. I'm aware of an instance where a man was shot in the heart and spoke about the same amount GZ claims TM did before expiring.

A young man in the kind of physical condition TM was in, could absolutely have enough energy level to do what GZ describes, including get up off him, stumble, and say things.

Is it your position (are you claiming that) TM got up after being shot?

Think it through before you answer.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Is it your position (are you claiming that) TM got up after being shot?

Think it through before you answer.

I think it's likely. I'm basing this on what a person's natural reaction to being shot (but not instantly dying) in a situation like that would be, plus what GZ (poorly) describes.

It's also possible that he only "sat up" as GZ says, and then GZ sort of pushed him off.

I don't know.

I was asked to try to explain the "50 feet" (which I think is an overestimate but not by a lot if so) and made an attempt to do so.

 

[Rare Truth]

...

What matters is what GZ believed and what was reasonable for him to believe in that moment, with a large stranger on top of him, preventing his escape,
....

When I hear things like that - large - I can only assume you mean the mere three inches he had on Z, not large in the sense of bigger bulk. The kid was a slim jim, and Z had some 45 pounds on him.

Bulk-wise, Z was more the larger man, so my ears perk up when I hear descriptions like that.

Trayvon was skinny. His nickname to all who knew him was "Slim."

The witnesses, detectives and cops who saw him described him as skinny..."So skinny compared to [Z]."

Here, in the interview done on March 2, 2012.

With the lead detective, and Witness #5 & #16.

CS=Serino, detective:

Quote:
CS: Did you recognize either of the individuals involved?
SM: It was too dark, I mean, if you, if you

MC: I didn’t recognize the child, the kid that was laying on the ground, I just saw him with his face down, but when the police rolled him over he had a shaved head, he was

SM: skinny

MC:skinny, he was not very short it didn’t look like – he was a black kid, but very light skinned, more like olive. The guy that was standing over him was pretty medium, thick build, short haircut, dark hair, and I wouldn’t say that he was,
I mean, that little kid was so skinny compared to him.

CS: Mmm, exactly, yeah, that was the impression that we all got.
​

Link to audio of that exchange: Witness #5 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case

and unresponsive to his screams and lack of fighting back.

Why was z unable to use his hands to fight back? Were they just flapping like a butterfly at the time while this tall slim jim Skittle carrier was on top of him?

 

[Unabogie]

I think it's likely. I'm basing this on what a person's natural reaction to being shot (but not instantly dying) in a situation like that would be, plus what GZ (poorly) describes.

It's also possible that he only "sat up" as GZ says, and then GZ sort of pushed him off.

I don't know.

I was asked to try to explain the "50 feet" (which I think is an overestimate but not by a lot if so) and made an attempt to do so.

The 50 feet has been explained many times here. Forgive us if we've been over these things enough time to be impatient.

http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/evidence-field/

The distance from the sidewalk to the body is 37.5 feet. Add to that 7-8 feet to get to the flashlight and you have 45 feet. George was standing in the middle of the sidewalk, so add 3 feet. That's 48 feet. Add in the fact that he claims to have fallen backwards from the punch (which came from the south) and you have a 50 foot distance for the evidence to travel.

Oh, and don't fail to notice that the keys are not at the T. They are south of there, by the tree. So if the fight started at the T, it's just darned curious why none of the evidence was dropped there.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Why was z unable to use his hands to fight back? Were they just flapping like a butterfly at the time while this tall slim jim Skittle carrier was on top of him?

I believe GZ was disoriented and terrified, as evidenced by his screams.

However, I don't think his hands were idle. I think he was most likely using his arms to deflect and/or soften blows which were aimed at his head. With how much success? I don't know.

He may also have been attempting to grab TM's wrists to stop said blows.

And prying TM's hand(s) back off his mouth when they'd go there.

Or they may have been sort of ineffectually flailing in what were almost entirely failed attempts at putting up some sort of defense.

I don't know, just speculation. I consider them "flapping like a butterfly" to be very unlikely.

What do you think they were doing?

 

[johnny karate]

Zimmerman interwove speculation into his account.

Not regarding Martin's murder attempt, he didn't.

Again, if you don't think Martin intended to kill Zimmerman, then you are at odds with what Zimmerman claimed.

I'll be happy to quote Zimmerman's entire statement if you remain unconvinced.

Human memory is wildly unreliable. Not just GZ's... everyone's. Perhaps GZ's more than most.

Then we are in agreement. We can't trust Zimmerman's claim that he was in reasonable fear for his life because of how "wildly unreliable" his memory is.

 

[Unabogie]

I believe GZ was disoriented and terrified, as evidenced by his screams.

However, I don't think his hands were idle. I think he was most likely using his arms to deflect and/or soften blows which were aimed at his head. With how much success? I don't know.

He may also have been attempting to grab TM's wrists to stop said blows.

And prying TM's hand(s) back off his mouth when they'd go there.

Or they may have been sort of ineffectually flailing in what were almost entirely failed attempts at putting up some sort of defense.

I don't know, just speculation. I consider them "flapping like a butterfly" to be very unlikely.

What do you think they were doing?

I think he wasn't being hit and the witness who saw Trayvon restraining him was probably correct. So Trayvon was merely holding his wrists.

But if you think he was putting his hands over George's nose and mouth, how is it that none of the blood ended up there? Is it magic?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Great. Then you and Cylinder should have argued that, instead of bringing up something Rare Truth didn't say and pretending she did.

Maybe Rare Truth should just abstain from making fallacious arguments from incredulity, instead ?

And it wasn't as if it was just lack of stains he mentioned. He said:

Little things like this that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.

Fresh as a daisy clean, after suffering a severe death-defying beating at the hands of the slim jim just barely-seventeen Skittle carrier.
<SNIP>

So since he posted pictures with that description, I can only assume he thought the pictures represented GZ jacket "Fresh as a daisy clean". DO you really think it was wrong of cylinder to inject some reality ?

 

[Unabogie]

Maybe Rare Truth should just abstain from making fallacious arguments from incredulity, instead ?

And it wasn't as if it was just lack of stains he mentioned. He said:


So since he posted pictures with that description, I can only assume he thought the pictures represented GZ jacket "Fresh as a daisy clean". DO you really think it was wrong of cylinder to inject some reality ?

Do you think those clothes look like someone who "slid" on the wet, rainy grass for 50 feet while on his back?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think he wasn't being hit and the witness who saw Trayvon restraining him was probably correct. So Trayvon was merely holding his wrists.

But if you think he was putting his hands over George's nose and mouth, how is it that none of the blood ended up there? Is it magic?

Where ? GZ mouth ? We have already seen a picture of smudged blood around his mouth.

TM hands ? We still haven't seen any evidence regarding TM hands. Feel free to provide some.

 

[sgtbaker]

Based on this, do you concede that perhaps Zimmerman might not have actually been in reasonable fear for his life because his memory of the event is expected to be unreliable?

Or is that a data point you are dead certain he remembers accurately?

I would say most people, having experienced what they believed to be a brush with death, have that moment burned in their memory. I can say with certainty, I have had three brushes with death. One I was unconscious for but the other two are burned in my memory. I can't recall every detail leading up to either moment, nor can I recall much after that but the very moment I actually had to face that horrible thought, "This is it for me?" well probably stay with me until I die. I have little doubt that the moment he pulled the trigger is probably with him for life.

That being said, I have actually argued this before but it was a long time ago. Reasonable fear for your life is a very subjective term so the determining factor for me, rests on who is doing the screaming. Since there is doubt as to which voice it actually is, I don't feel comfortable completely resting on the idea that GZ was, in fact, reasonably in fear. If that was GZ screaming for help, then yes, I would agree that he can be considered reasonably in fear. If an assault continues for that long and no one is coming to help, and he lacks the benefit of knowing if or when the assault was going to stop, I see no reason to doubt a claim of fear for one's life. As long as there is the possibility that TM was on top, holding Zimmerman down, while screaming for help, I cannot say with 100% certainty, that the shooting was justifiable but with the current lack of evidence to prove otherwise, I lean more towards yes he was in reasonably in fear at that moment. I will also add that if it can be proven that GZ started the altercation, were I on the jury, I would vote guilty for manslaughter. Even if he was in fear for his life at the moment he pulled the trigger, I feel instigating the assault would put all liability on him.

 

[Unabogie]

Where ? GZ mouth ? We have already seen a picture of smudged blood around his mouth.

TM hands ? We still haven't seen any evidence regarding TM hands. Feel free to provide some.

Seriously? We've been over this again and again. There's no record of blood on the hands, and we know for a fact they tested the fingernails. They tested the sleeves. There's nothing there.

 

[Rare Truth]

Maybe Rare Truth should just abstain from making fallacious arguments from incredulity, instead ?

And it wasn't as if it was just lack of stains he mentioned. He said:

...

You have been informed I am a she, more than once.

Please refrain from mislabeling my gender.

 

[Rare Truth]

Are you implying that's impossible? I assure you it's not.

Others have said it's impossible TM said anything after being shot in the heart - again, entirely false. Very possible.
....

Not even GZ made that claim, so why are you making up information that has not been proposed ...by anyone, AFAIK?

Just to give him a few more feet that cannot be accounted for?

 

[Rare Truth]

Do you think those clothes look like someone who "slid" on the wet, rainy grass for 50 feet while on his back?

Nope. Not to most thinking people anyway.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Seriously? We've been over this again and again. There's no record of blood on the hands, and we know for a fact they tested the fingernails. They tested the sleeves. There's nothing there.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, is it ?

There is no description of his hands, period, that I am aware of. Bloody or not.

 

[Unabogie]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, is it ?

There is no description of his hands, period, that I am aware of. Bloody or not.

No blood on sleeves, none under the nails. That needs an explanation that you've never provided.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Not even GZ made that claim, so why are you making up information that has not been proposed ...by anyone, AFAIK?

Just to give him a few more feet that cannot be accounted for?

I consider it entirely appropriate to attempt to make sense of what GZ says happened, and even attempt to get closer to the likely truth of that night's events than he himself has been able to (at least during the interviews we have of him with police.)

I've yet to encounter any people on the other "side" who don't engage in this same behavior in ways which make GZ look worse, including here, so I don't see why it should be off limits in the other direction.

Not that I'm trying to make him look "better" I'm just trying to make sense of what seems to have occurred, and I don't disregard anything in the pursuit of coming to that understanding. Whether that be what GZ says, what witnesses say, what the evidence indicates, or just good old fashioned common sense.

All the while keeping in mind that what GZ and witness's say can be flawed, due to problems with human memory, problems with human sensory perception, lies, agenda, bias, honest mistakes... etc etc

And even the evidence can be flawed if not collected properly, or not collected at all, evidence is subject to human failings too. Just less so.

My discovery of Witness 6's interview with the local Fox news about a week after this event happened was what got me thinking, and started me on the road away from thinking GZ was a monster, and brought me to where I am now. Which is provisional, conditional acceptance of GZ's account in the broad strokes.

Witness 6's testimony remains probably the primary thing for me. Even his "updated" account later, where he dialed back his certainty on a few points, remained extremely damning of TM's behavior that night.

If TM was on top of GZ mere moments prior to the shot, and if that was GZ screaming, and in light of the injuries GZ sustained as compared to the injuries TM did not sustain... regardless of any arguments that the injuries are minor, etc etc... I don't see how it can be argued that this wasn't self-defense.

Or at the very least, that we have nowhere near the certainty required to put this man away for decades in a prison, and have any sort of moral confidence in doing so as a society.