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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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It's not rocket science. Zimmerman had two minor injuries on the back of his head, so it follows he suffered some minor trauma. Like for instance, hitting his own head on the cement during the struggle.

No, it's not rocket science, but it IS a science. You would still have to hit your head pretty hard against the ground for his head to split open like that, and those two injuries appear to be on two separate planes of the back of his head, so I don't see that coming from a single blow, but multiple blows. You're still assessing the "major trauma" label onto the manner of the attack he describes, and along with that, present assumptions of "major injuries". The bigger of the two lacerations was nearly an inch long (2 cm, or ~4/5"), and I don't see that kind of cut happening from just brushing up against the sidewalk, or whatever you're trying to imply. It would take some degree of force to cause the head to split open in that manner.

See, when you untether yourself from the reflexive need to believe everything Zimmerman says, all kinds of simple and obvious options present themselves.

If I'm tethered like you say I am, then you are equally tethered in taking whatever measures necessary to dismiss anything and everything GZ says that will in any way point to his innocence, or TM's culpability.
 
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I didn't dodge your question, you didn't like my answer. See how that works?

No, I don't. Here was the question:

Do you agree that calling GZ and anyone associated with him names is also stupid, wrong, and extreme ?

And your non-answer:

I will openly call GZ a killer because that's what he is. Whether or not he is a murderer remains to be seen.

So I asked again:

That's great. And Trayvon is juvenile delinquent with a history of drug use, truancy, and who knows what else.

But you dodged the question.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/name-calling
the use of offensive names especially to win an argument or to induce rejection or condemnation (as of a person or project) without objective consideration of the facts

Do you think name calling is stupid, wrong, and extreme when done to GZ and people associated with him ?

And your second non-answer:

Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I will openly call GZ a killer because that's what he is. Whether or not he is a murderer remains to be seen.
That's great. And Trayvon is juvenile delinquent with a history of drug use, truancy, and who knows what else. No, sorry, they are not the same thing.

So, no, you didn't answer my question. You responded with some justification of why you call GZ a murderer.

And of course, it's absolutely up to you. And it's relatively unimportant. I just don't think you you should be saying you answered my question when you clearly didn't.
 
No, I don't. Here was the question:

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And your non-answer:

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So I asked again:

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And your second non-answer:


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So, no, you didn't answer my question. You responded with some justification of why you call GZ a murderer.

And of course, it's absolutely up to you. And it's relatively unimportant. I just don't think you you should be saying you answered my question when you clearly didn't.

I answered the question, you don't like the way I answered. So be it. Move on.
 
It's amazing that the issue of George's first story keeps getting denied, so I'll just repost what I've posted again and again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9033628&postcount=5054

In his first telling. We've gone over this a million times in the last thread.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audi...ford-pd-audio/

Listen to the first recording on this page, approximately 13 minutes in.

Quote:
"He jumped out from the bushes and he said what the ****'s your problem homie".

"At that point, I fell down".

"As soon as he punched me, I fell backwards into the grass".

There's no way to reconcile falling backward onto the grass as soon as he punched him, and the debris field being 50 feet to the south of where he said he was punched. Since according to him, that punch made him fall down and he never got up. Listen to the tape at 13 minutes in and see for yourselves.
 
You're the one (of many) who is insistent that GZ's injuries would have to be much worse (skull fractures, etc.) than they are/were in order to match up with the attack he describes. I don't agree, so I'm asking you to provide some sort of evidence that supports that assertion. I provided a video of a petite woman, in a full run, going limp and smacking the back of her head, without any resistance, on the concrete below, and she suffered no skull fractures. I'm not under any impression that any of TM's "slams" of GZ's head onto the ground were anywhere near the level of impact in which that girl's head hit the ground, even if the attack was exactly like GZ described it.

I'm not sure why you're exclusively focusing on skull fractures as if I asserted that Zimmerman must have had skull fractures. I guess it's just an easier straw man for you to knock down.

Zimmerman also didn't have a concussion, or even so much as a headache the next day.

ted he got his wounds from the attack he describes. If this was at trial, and the prosecution wanted to refute that his injuries were from an attack similar to what he describes, they would have to provide a compelling argument for why that is so, and it would need to go beyond reciting the definition of "slam" from a dictionary. I've been asking you to do something similar. You seem convinced that his wounds could not have come from the attack he describes, and I'm asking you to explain the rationale behind why you believe that. Show me how you came to that conclusion so I can see for myself if you based this on some sort of sound logic, or just some sort of arbitrary dismissal based on it not "sounding right" to you.

I've made my argument as clear as possible.

Zimmerman described a severe assault.

Zimmerman did not sustain any severe injuries.

Those two things are at odds with one another.
 
No, it's not rocket science, but it IS a science. You would still have to hit your head pretty hard against the ground for his head to split open like that, and those two injuries appear to be on two separate planes of the back of his head, so I don't see that coming from a single blow, but multiple blows. You're still assessing the "major trauma" label onto the manner of the attack he describes, and along with that, present assumptions of "major injuries". The bigger of the two lacerations was nearly an inch long (2 cm, or ~4/5"), and I don't see that kind of cut happening from just brushing up against the sidewalk, or whatever you're trying to imply. It would take some degree of force to cause the head to split open in that manner.

I find your uninformed medical analysis uncompelling.

If I'm tethered like you say I am, then you are equally tethered in taking whatever measures necessary to dismiss anything and everything GZ says that will in any way point to his innocence, or TM's culpability.

You can feel any way you wish about me or my motives.

The difference between us being that I use the evidence to support my arguments rather than trying to wriggle my way around it.
 
It's amazing that the issue of George's first story keeps getting denied...

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around this phenomenon, too.

People defending Zimmerman are actually arguing against the things he himself claimed.

Not even they believe his story.
 
The photos have been posted for your perusal.

Perhaps you could apply some blue arrows to indicate where all the grass stains are.

The two options seem to be that either the SPD officer lied in his report, or the photo is not high resolution enough to see the blood on his head grass and water on his jacket.

Which one do you think it is ? Or, if there is an option I missed ...
 
I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around this phenomenon, too.

People defending Zimmerman are actually arguing against the things he himself claimed.

Not even they believe his story.

There's also the written statement:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/22/us/21george-zimmerman-transcript.html?_r=0

"The suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me."

There's zero room there for him to have stumble walked 50 feet. Sorry, that's just not plausible.

I really need to bookmark these two items because people just can't accept the simple truth that the story and the location of the body and evidence field don't match.
 
That Zimmerman described his alleged assault in a manner other than how you are attempting to describe it. You are doing so in order to rationalize the lack of severity in Zimmerman's injuries.

And no one is buying it.

I'm buying it.

Zimmerman was not a medical professional nor a wrestling referee attempting to give the most exacting description possible. "Slam" is exactly what 99.99% of regular English speaking people would use to describe someone grabbing the sides of your head, or your shoulders, and pushing you hard into the concrete beneath you, such that your head endured pain and injury as a result.

Even if the velocity your head achieved wasn't all that great, or the injury which resulted wasn't life threatening, and wasn't accompanied by a fractures and/or a concussion.

He was using the term "slam" in a completely normal, common way.

See, when you untether yourself from the reflexive need to believe everything Zimmerman says, all kinds of simple and obvious options present themselves.

I don't think phonebook is tethered to what GZ says being 100% true, and I am certain I'm not. I think he's being more realistic about the limitations of human memory, and the conventions of normal human speech.

I don't even rule out that there is a measure of exaggeration or even a few outright lies mixed into what GZ is saying. I just happen to feel that the evidence backs him up sufficiently to accept his story as being substantially the truth, at least on conditional basis.

If you're wishing GZ had been more exact and careful in how he described things, I hear you. I wish that too, and I am sure you GZ himself must be wishing that hardest of all right about now. More importantly, I'm sure he's wishing he hadn't talked whatsoever prior to retaining legal counsel.

His sloppy, overly conversational and overly comfortable posture toward the police (I do believe he viewed himself as on the same "team" as them to some minor degree) and his agreement to tell the same events multiple times, really set himself up for exactly what you and so many others are doing now.

Which is being entirely unreasonable, unrealistic, and unfair in how you are approaching his "variations" or as some prefer to call them "lies" - I have no doubt whatsoever that you are perfectly familiar with people speaking in a casual way and not being exact in their word choices and in their descriptions. Or attempting to paint the broad strokes of events as recollections come to them, sort of in a "stream of consciousness" fashion.

I happen to have a rather poor memory (in many, not all, respects) myself, and though I've never been diagnosed with ADD or anything like that, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if many doctors would feel I qualified. I absorb and recount information in a way significantly different from most people I know, and I can personally assure you that there ARE people who end up with the kind of detail-drift and inconsistencies/variations GZ's accounts have, without any sort of malice, deception, or conscious will behind them whatsoever.

Of course, I can't know that is what is going on with GZ for a certainty. I merely know for a fact that it's possible that's what's going on.

As for the possibility that he's being deliberately deceptive? I will say again, I don't believe if that was his agenda he'd be likely to agree to so many endless interviews and re-interviews and reenactments, etc etc without an attorney present. That's not definitive, of course. I just think it's telling.

I just want to point one little thing out, and then I'll wrap this post up. When he's doing his walkthrough reenactment with the detectives, he claims that he told the dispatcher the make, model, and color of his vehicle while on the call. He did not. So we're confronted with a couple of possibilities about why he said that this was part of the phone call:

1.) He's being casual in how he recounts the call to police, and he's letting thoughts which occur to him there, on the scene, with the detectives, become intermingled with recollections from the night before, and is conveying things he THOUGHT at the time as if they were things he SAID.

2.) He's misremembering, and thinks he remembers saying that. This option isn't entirely incompatible with option 1.

3.) He's lying, and is attempting to paint himself in a better light by claiming he told the dispatcher his vehicle was a silver Honda Ridgeline. If you want to choose this option I would ask you to present an idea as to what benefit this lie could have for him, because I personally cannot think of one. At all.

If you acknowledge that it's likely he wasn't lying in this instance, but rather just being a bit sloppy with his memory and paraphrasing things to the detectives... conveying ideas as though they were actual things spoken when they weren't... and just generally being less than exact in how he conveys things... I think you have to acknowledge that his may also be the case with a lot of these other things many of you are currently framing as "lies" - if you wish to be consistent, honest, and fair.
 
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Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. Not quite cricket on skeptic board.

Hope that helps.

Do you realize you're spending an inordinate amount of your time playing gotcha with other posters? Can you drop this and get back into the discussion?

Specifically, some of the new posters are disputing that George actually said he went immediately down to the ground after being punched. You and I went through this just a few weeks ago, so as you usually take George's side in things, you should chime in and confirm that I am correct. That would help move the discussion along.
 
I've made my argument as clear as possible.

Zimmerman described a severe assault.

Zimmerman did not sustain any severe injuries.

Those two things are at odds with one another.

It's possibly to be in a severe car crash and walk away from it, isn't it ?

Those two things are not at odds with each other at all.
 
What's with you and this bizzare insistence that being knocked down and not getting up after precludes someone from moving? At least two people actually saw Zimmerman during the course of the struggle - both of them saw him on the ground. No one saw Zimmerman on his feet. Zimmerman clearly claims to have tried to slide out from Martin during the very first interview but never estimates or is asked about the distance covered.


Excellent! Then there will be dirt and grass stains on George's clothes! Now where was that picture...
 
The two options seem to be that either the SPD officer lied in his report, or the photo is not high resolution enough to see the blood on his head grass and water on his jacket.

Which one do you think it is ? Or, if there is an option I missed ...

The option you missed is this:

Rare Truth referred to grass stains, dirt stains, and scuff marks.

Cylinder referred to actual grass and moisture.

You'll note the dissimilarities.
 
Do you realize you're spending an inordinate amount of your time playing gotcha with other posters? Can you drop this and get back into the discussion?

Really, I'm not spending that much time at all on it, thanks for your concern though.

Specifically, some of the new posters are disputing that George actually said he went immediately down to the ground after being punched. You and I went through this just a few weeks ago, so as you usually take George's side in things, you should chime in and confirm that I am correct. That would help move the discussion along.

I specifically haven't chimed in to the going round and round about the address, the location of the fight, etc. because, as you say, BTDTGTTS.

We all know that GZ gave multiple narratives that have some inconsistencies.
And then each side will just pick whichever version is more convenient, as JK pointed out above:
(Spoiler alert: Whichever version you settle on, I'll be able to counter it with Zimmerman making the opposite claim.)

The claim has already been made that the differences are not going to be material. This is what we disagree on.

However, actual evidence has been presented that the altercation started at the Tee, just as GZ claimed. IE witness 11, witness 18.
No evidence has been provided that GZ chased down TM, just speculation.

How was that ?
 
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I don't think phonebook is tethered to what GZ says being 100% true, and I am certain I'm not. I think he's being more realistic about the limitations of human memory, and the conventions of normal human speech.

I don't even rule out that there is a measure of exaggeration or even a few outright lies mixed into what GZ is saying. I just happen to feel that the evidence backs him up sufficiently to accept his story as being substantially the truth, at least on conditional basis.

Sorry to snip, but your post is very long and there's a lot to cover that others may attempt to address the things I left out.

But what George did was not about exaggerating or even using sloppy language.

I posted his written statement above. He makes several specific claims about what the victim did and said that leave no doubt about a specific attempt to murder him on the part of the victim.

1. He says Trayvon specifically told him he was trying to murder him.
2. He says that this statement is what "assured" him that he had to shoot him.

If you don't believe that Trayvon was specifically trying to murder him or that he didn't say "you're gonna die tonight, mother **********", then #2 is based on a lie.

He says Trayvon tried to smother him and in fact stopped his breathing. Yet there's no blood evidence on Trayvon to support this. In fact, there's no blood under the fingernails and any wounds on his knuckles. If you don't think he was really smothered, then this is a lie that undercuts his defense. If you do believe him, you'll have to explain why there's no blood there.

He made specific claims about how and where the fight went down. He was on his way back to the truck, he said, when he was waylaid by the kid jumping out of the bushes. He was hit once, fell backwards onto the grass, and never got up. He made that claim multiple times. And yet the location of the two things they most likely held in their hands - the flashlight and the cell phone the victim was talking on when he was accosted by the defendant - are a full 50 feet from that location. In other words, the evidence most decidedly does not support his story, and suggests he moved to the south to continue his pursuit of "the suspect".

George made many factual assertions about what happened, and he was extremely detailed in his account. He remembered every phrase uttered and every step of the altercation. He told his story 3 times with no variation, but then when he was faced with the physical impossibility of it he changed it for the video reenactment.

He doesn't get to now claim faulty memory made him do it. He's stuck with his various versions of his story.
 
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