Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Cylinder]

Does George Zimmerman have a clear recollection of the events that transpired that night or not?

Of the altercation, yes.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm asking for you to back up your assertion that the type of attack GZ describes would have "likely" resulted in skull fractures.

Skull fractures:

A skull fracture is a break in one or more of the eight bones that form the cranial portion of the skull, usually occurring as a result of blunt force trauma.

Concussion:

Concussion may be caused by impact forces, in which the head strikes or is struck by something, or impulsive forces, in which the head moves without itself being subject to blunt trauma (for example, when the chest hits something and the head snaps forward).

Are lacerations to the back of the head not potential "impact injuries"?

Sure, but lacerations that are small and do not require sutures are not very severe, thus indicating that the trauma that caused them was not very severe.

Zimmerman claims to have had his head repeatedly slammed into the concrete. I'm not sure how one can honestly not consider that severe trauma.

 

[johnny karate]

While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground."

I guess Truth needs a tactic.

The photos have been posted for your perusal.

Perhaps you could apply some blue arrows to indicate where all the grass stains are.

 

[johnny karate]

No lie not worth telling, eh?

To those who read more and font less, it's clear that Zimmerman's back was wet and grass-covered when the police arrived. Maybe Senior brought a bottle of Dassani and some lawn clippings along with his cricket bat.

Clunkity, clucnk.

And by the way, this thing you keep doing in which you pretend someone made a claim they didn't and then attack the straw man you've created is getting a bit tedious.

This is what Rare Truth said:

You'd think there might even be a few grass / dirt stains or scuffle marks on the back of the pant cuffs as he struggled to get free, what with the holding him down, pounding his head and telling him "tonight you're going to die ************" and all...

People who are being held down against their will dig their heels into the ground trying to gain leverage, but nope. Not Mr. Sparkly there.

Rare Truth did not say Zimmerman was free from grass and moisture.

And again, the photos speak for themselves.

 

[phonebook]

Zimmerman claims to have had his head repeatedly slammed into the concrete. I'm not sure how one can honestly not consider that severe trauma.

I'm under no impression that GZ was being ragdolled by TM, with GZ giving no resistance at all to TM's efforts to slam GZ's head into the concrete below. TM would have had all his weight behind his efforts though, and GZ would be limited to mostly his neck muscles to prevent this from happening, so clearly TM would have had the advantage. I've never had someone get on top of me and try to slam my head against the ground below, so I don't know how difficult it would be to prevent them from doing that.

Also, consider how close GZ's head would have been to the ground if he was flat on his back. It's not like TM would have had a really large distance in which to build momentum anyway, to have the slams be especially hard.

Here, watch this video. You may remember this story, of the cop tasering this 100 lb girl, where she falls to the ground, and suffers brain damage and ultimately dies. I can't imagine any of GZ's head slams were remotely this hard, and even this small girl didn't have her skull fractured (can't find any mention of it online anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2L85M287gk

 

[johnny karate]

Of the altercation, yes.

In that case, did Zimmerman go down after one punch, or did he stumble around a bit?

Go through his various accounts and let me know which you think it is.

(Spoiler alert: Whichever version you settle on, I'll be able to counter it with Zimmerman making the opposite claim.)

 

[johnny karate]

I'm under no impression that GZ was being ragdolled by TM, with GZ giving no resistance at all to TM's efforts to slam GZ's head into the concrete below. TM would have had all his weight behind his efforts though, and GZ would be limited to mostly his neck muscles to prevent this from happening, so clearly TM would have had the advantage. I've never had someone get on top of me and try to slam my head against the ground below, so I don't know how difficult it would be to prevent them from doing that.

Also, consider how close GZ's head would have been to the ground if he was flat on his back. It's not like TM would have had a really large distance in which to build momentum anyway, to have the slams be especially hard.

Here, watch this video. You may remember this story, of the cop tasering this 100 lb girl, where she falls to the ground, and suffers brain damage and ultimately dies. I can't imagine any of GZ's head slams were remotely this hard, and even this small girl didn't have her skull fractured (can't find any mention of it online anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2L85M287gk

slam

1. To shut with force and loud noise: slammed the door.
2. To put, throw, or otherwise forcefully move so as to produce a loud noise: slammed the book on the desk.
3. To hit or strike with great force.

Zimmerman's word, used to describe what Martin was doing repeatedly to his head onto the concrete sidewalk.

"My head felt like it was going to explode"

Also Zimmerman's words.

I can see you're committed to sussing out some more innocuous version of events from Zimmerman's varying stories in order to account for the relatively minor nature of his injuries, but I'm afraid it's just not going to fly.

What's amusing is that you aren't the first. Several other people defending Zimmerman in this thread have tried the same thing. And the message I'm getting loud and clear from that is: We don't believe him either.

 

[phonebook]

slam

1. To shut with force and loud noise: slammed the door.
2. To put, throw, or otherwise forcefully move so as to produce a loud noise: slammed the book on the desk.
3. To hit or strike with great force.

Zimmerman's word, used to describe what Martin was doing repeatedly to his head onto the concrete sidewalk.

LOL... what is your point with this? Did they hold a dictionary in front of him when he used the word slam and ask "Now are you SURE you want to use the word SLAM? Do you realize the gravity that the word SLAM entails Mr. Zimmerman?"

I can see you're committed to sussing out some more innocuous version of events from Zimmerman's varying stories in order to account for the relatively minor nature of his injuries, but I'm afraid it's just not going to fly.

What's amusing is that you aren't the first. Several other people defending Zimmerman in this thread have tried the same thing. And the message I'm getting loud and clear from that is: We don't believe him either.

I'm not trying to make what occurred seem more "innocuous", I'm merely expounding upon all the variables that likely would have been at play in a situation that GZ described. You expect greater injuries because it doesn't appear you're considering all those variables. Don't you think GZ was resisting these efforts by TM? I imagine he was putting forth a tremendous effort in resisting what was being done to him. Don't you think that would have reduced the effectiveness of TM's "head slams"?

I'd really like to know your theory for how GZ got those head injuries if it wasn't from the head slams. We know it wasn't from TM's fingernails, as none of GZ's DNA was found there. What is a better explanation for the injuries on the back of his head?

ETA: Did you watch that video btw? Pretty brutal head "slam" there, yet no fracture.

 

[Dan O.]

If the dispatcher has a map in front of him (this appears to be your assumption), then why didn't the dispatcher just ask "are you on Twin Trees Lane"? GZ had already given the dispatcher the address for the clubhouse, so if the dispatcher had a map in front of him, the clubhouse address would have put him right in the vicinity on the map, and he could have just visually followed the map based on GZ's directions and easily seen Twin Trees Lane, but the dispatcher never hints at that. I do accept that GZ is likely an idiot.

The dispatcher has probably already surmised that he is dealing with an idiot. If you feed information to an idiot you won't be able to distinguish if their response is validating that information or simply accepting your information as authoritive.

Check out earlier in the NEN call when Z gets the address of the clubhouse wrong. The dispatcher is offering an option between the invalid address and the likely address which was probably suggested by the dispatchers computer. Instead of answering this simple two choice question, Z injects: "that's the clubhouse" which leaves another ambiguity for the dispatcher to resolve.

I like how the dispatcher responds when he realizes that George might be playing detective and following the suspect. The conversation gets formal and focuses of George. Idiots aren't good at multitasking so while George is preoccupied with answering questions about himself, he won't be hunting down any supposed ******** that might be in the area.

 

[Dan O.]

Of the altercation, yes.

Right

You say that until there is a part of his story that is incompatible with the evidence and then he's excused because of the trama he's been through.

 

[This is The End]

Not quite the same. The way he put it leaves room open for stumbling IMO

So according to you "And he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down." "leaves room open for stumbling" a relatively large distance???

I would have to say you are giving Z a huge benefit of the doubt there. More power to you I guess.

That's exactly where the dispatcher would be. Looking at a map like the dispatcher would have displayed in front of him, which of the three 1211 addresses do you reach if you come in straight past the clubhouse and take a left just like George had said? Of course, we don't expect George to be able to to this. We accept that George is an idiot.

It's just ridiculous. You shouldn't have to explain these things.

The Conservative Treehouse is in the process of breaking up.

Expect more refugees.

Wow. That's unfortunate. Look on the bright side, we will get lots of practice being fair skeptics.

While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground."

I guess Truth needs a tactic.

You do realize that isn't even what the claim was about? We're looking for grass stains and muddy shoes, not just dampness and pieces of grass... Please follow the argument before you respond, especially if you end you post with such incivility like you did.

 

[sgtbaker]

No, I don't believe he was confused. I gave my reasons for not believing his confusion.

Posting from the comfort of my chair has nothing to do with any of this and slides a little to close to insulting for my tastes. Aren't we all posting from the comfort of somewhere? I sure don't think I'm special. None of us were "living in that moment".

I wasn't intending to insult and that comment were merely meant to say it is easier to sit, after the fact and say what someone should have done.
I am just trying to understand what you mean. I get that you don't think he should have been confused but I asked if you thought he was faking it. I don't understand what motive he would have for pretending not to be able to give clear directions. It sounds like you think this whole thing was premeditated.

 

[KatieG]

I wasn't intending to insult and that comment were merely meant to say it is easier to sit, after the fact and say what someone should have done.
I am just trying to understand what you mean. I get that you don't think he should have been confused but I asked if you thought he was faking it. I don't understand what motive he would have for pretending not to be able to give clear directions. It sounds like you think this whole thing was premeditated.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion based on my posts. I do not believe he was confused about where he was. That's all I've said.

 

[Cylinder]

In that case, did Zimmerman go down after one punch, or did he stumble around a bit?

Go through his various accounts and let me know which you think it is.

(Spoiler alert: Whichever version you settle on, I'll be able to counter it with Zimmerman making the opposite claim.)

What's with you and this bizzare insistence that being knocked down and not getting up after precludes someone from moving? At least two people actually saw Zimmerman during the course of the struggle - both of them saw him on the ground. No one saw Zimmerman on his feet. Zimmerman clearly claims to have tried to slide out from Martin during the very first interview but never estimates or is asked about the distance covered.

 

[sgtbaker]

I have idea how you came to that conclusion based on my posts. I do not believe he was confused about where he was. That's all I've said.

What reason would he have to pretend to be confused on the phone with NEN. That is what I am trying to understand.

 

[KatieG]

What reason would he have to pretend to be confused on the phone with NEN. That is what I am trying to understand.

I don't have a clue what he was thinking or if he was thinking at all.

 

[johnny karate]

LOL... what is your point with this?

That Zimmerman described his alleged assault in a manner other than how you are attempting to describe it. You are doing so in order to rationalize the lack of severity in Zimmerman's injuries.

And no one is buying it.

 

[johnny karate]

What's with you and this bizzare insistence that being knocked down and not getting up after precludes someone from moving? At least two people actually saw Zimmerman during the course of the struggle - both of them saw him on the ground. No one saw Zimmerman on his feet. Zimmerman clearly claims to have tried to slide out from Martin during the very first interview but never estimates or is asked about the distance covered.

The "distance covered" has been clearly demonstrated in this thread on a map with the location of Martin's body, the debris, and the location where Zimmerman claimed the altercation began. It is in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 feet.

You seem to disagree, and have come up with a distance of your own that is much shorter. However, you have not provided any substantiation for how you came up with that distance.

Let me know when you do.

 

[johnny karate]

I'd really like to know your theory for how GZ got those head injuries if it wasn't from the head slams. We know it wasn't from TM's fingernails, as none of GZ's DNA was found there. What is a better explanation for the injuries on the back of his head?

It's not rocket science. Zimmerman had two minor injuries on the back of his head, so it follows he suffered some minor trauma. Like for instance, hitting his own head on the cement during the struggle.

See, when you untether yourself from the reflexive need to believe everything Zimmerman says, all kinds of simple and obvious options present themselves.

 

[phonebook]

That Zimmerman described his alleged assault in a manner other than how you are attempting to describe it. You are doing so in order to rationalize the lack of severity in Zimmerman's injuries.

And no one is buying it.

You're the one (of many) who is insistent that GZ's injuries would have to be much worse (skull fractures, etc.) than they are/were in order to match up with the attack he describes. I don't agree, so I'm asking you to provide some sort of evidence that supports that assertion. I provided a video of a petite woman, in a full run, going limp and smacking the back of her head, without any resistance, on the concrete below, and she suffered no skull fractures. I'm not under any impression that any of TM's "slams" of GZ's head onto the ground were anywhere near the level of impact in which that girl's head hit the ground, even if the attack was exactly like GZ described it.

GZ has stated he got his wounds from the attack he describes. If this was at trial, and the prosecution wanted to refute that his injuries were from an attack similar to what he describes, they would have to provide a compelling argument for why that is so, and it would need to go beyond reciting the definition of "slam" from a dictionary. I've been asking you to do something similar. You seem convinced that his wounds could not have come from the attack he describes, and I'm asking you to explain the rationale behind why you believe that. Show me how you came to that conclusion so I can see for myself if you based this on some sort of sound logic, or just some sort of arbitrary dismissal based on it not "sounding right" to you.