Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

Status
Not open for further replies.
As the pace has slowed while we await the wisdom of qwints and Apos, has anyone else noticed that despite being down to an average of about a half dozen users logged in on average, almost all the forums have at least 1 post each day? I referred to it earlier as a Potemkin index page. For based on my experience on MB's, and all are sites with many times the activity/posts of A+, there are generally at least a few forums that go for days without any replies. It very rarely happens at A+; it's almost as rare as any thread there achieving any traction. The only ones that have received a limited amount involved dogpiling and someone resisting their required reeducation.

I suspect there is still a concerted effort being staged via the secret forum to maintain this facade. And if true, it would be a short way and in step with employing multiple sock puppets to make the number of participants seem larger than in reality. I have no real evidence many there are literally talking to themselves. I submit this conjecture simply as something within the realm of the possible. Given the anomaly of regularly updated forums by a small group and the history of those running the site, I might even argue it was somewhat probable. Not like sacrifices of honesty and reason haven't occurred in the past. Like never updating the banned list. :boggled:
 
s_pepys said:
pz's newest view on the evil gaming industry.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng...nt-a-positive-story-from-the-gamer-community/

this bit is funny and stupid.

peezus!
Click to expand...
The problem is that there is a definite issue with gender/sexuality as portrayed in gaming, particularly the poor portrayal of female characters, and the near-complete absence of homosexual ones. There is a whole lot of discussion and debate that is still unresolved, or in some cases barely even started. It's unfortunate that intelligent debate over the issue tends to so often get hijacked or lost in the noise once the SJWs jump in.
 
A recent discussion of the first of Anita Sarkeesian's new videos and their subject matter took place on JREF Forums (in the Entertainment subforum). It can be found here. It includes several members who actually know something about the subject.
 
Quinn said:
I eagerly await the forthcoming SJ deconstruction of PacMan, exposing the "savage Native American" stereotype represented by Shadow ("The red one tracks ya and sneaks up on ya like a dang Injun!"), the neurotypical-normativity of Bashful, and of course the blatant ableism of the Speedy/Pokey combination.
Click to expand...

Actually, you can call out Pac-Man for sexism, at least as far as the designing goes. In a documentary I saw about the rise of video games there was an interview with the creator of Pac-Man he said that he had wanted to design a video game for girls. So he thought "what do girls like?". The answer he came up with was "eating".

There was also an interesting anecdote about the Westernisation of the name, but the film version of Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World has rather ruined that one.
 
adamwho said:
I will be impressed when the daughter doesn't need her daddy to protect her from all the miniscule problems of the world.
Click to expand...

I don't think he was protecting her. I can totally imagine it - she's playing the game one day and asks "why am I a boy helping a girl? Why can't I be a girl?" He says "leave it with me", and hacks the game. No protection, just helping his daughter play how she wants to play. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

And people do enjoy playing with things that they identify with. When I was younger, one of my cousins was black. And he never played with Lego, simply because there weren't any Lego men who looked like him.

I think that's understandable, and it's not unreasonable for children to want to play with characters they can identify with.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Actually, you can call out Pac-Man for sexism, at least as far as the designing goes. In a documentary I saw about the rise of video games there was an interview with the creator of Pac-Man he said that he had wanted to design a video game for girls. So he thought "what do girls like?". The answer he came up with was "eating".

There was also an interesting anecdote about the Westernisation of the name, but the film version of Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World has rather ruined that one.
Click to expand...

cite please. ive never heard that story in he development of pac-man.
 
Myriad said:
A recent discussion of the first of Anita Sarkeesian's new videos and their subject matter took place on JREF Forums (in the Entertainment subforum). It can be found here. It includes several members who actually know something about the subject.
Click to expand...

Yes, I read that thread and as someone who knows nothing about video games, as in don't own any (or play any outside of browser games ) I didn't really feel like barging in there with

1) who cares what happened 30 years ago and
2) why haven't those feminists who are concerned about the industry gone ahead and developed any female friendly games ?

I was reading somewhere that 74% of casual gamers are women, so there has to be a market...right ?
 
s_pepys said:
cite please. ive never heard that story in he development of pac-man.
Click to expand...

http://www.edge-online.com/news/gdc-2011-classic-game-postmortem-pac-man/

Iwatani was thinking of a hit right from the outset. Recognising that arcades at the time were “stinky and smelly,” the exclusive stomping ground of boys, he instead “wanted to attract female gamers. You couldn’t play games at home; you had to go to the arcade. We wanted to get girls to the arcade so it would be cleaner, brighter.”

In fact Iwatani was guided by female tastes – literally – throughout the early stages. “Girls like to eat – like my wife likes to eat a lot,” he said. “And this gave me the idea of Pac-Man eating the whole time.”
Click to expand...

It's not phrased exactly the same way, but this is a different interview.
 
adamwho said:
This is an admission that atheism+ is neither a skeptical or rationalist movement. And from the main topics discussed it isn't even an atheist movement.

The name (and belief it is superior to atheism) is probably one of the biggest problem for most people.

Just imagine how more much work you could do if you could stop defending that bad name and bad moderation behavior.....
Click to expand...

From Ceepolk saying not to address "the religion of brown people" and also saying that she does not believe in Atheism, it is obvious to be that Atheism has nothing to do with the group. The only think they do about religion is bashing Christianity. It seems to be more a cultural issue than a religious one.

The over emphasis on "feelings" takes care of the skepticism and rational thinking.

Jen was seeing A+ as a movement, but AA has indicated that this group is not inclusive, so ditching the movement aspect.

It was created with no leaders, but the moderators have all-encompassing powers with no accountability, and thus are the leadership.

It seems to be more a self-help group, born from the old communist based meme, a bit like an internet version of "Battleship Potemkin"; all against Western culture.
 
Myriad said:
A recent discussion of the first of Anita Sarkeesian's new videos and their subject matter took place on JREF Forums (in the Entertainment subforum). It can be found here. It includes several members who actually know something about the subject.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, hadn't seen that.

Myers is remarkably far out of his field on this one - that he pretends to know what was and wasn't easy in 1981 on hardware several million times less capable than today boggles the mind.

Stout said:
Yes, I read that thread and as someone who knows nothing about video games, as in don't own any (or play any outside of browser games ) I didn't really feel like barging in there with

1) who cares what happened 30 years ago and
Click to expand...
Well, it's history. Any sort of cultural critique - and it is sorely needed in the medium of video games - would relate to that. (And hopefully be a bit more nuanced than "it is telling [what it is telling unspecified]").

2) why haven't those feminists who are concerned about the industry gone ahead and developed any female friendly games ?
Click to expand...
Well, it's not that easy. The industry sorely needs broader representation of women and minorities (IMO), but in a sense it's a self-perpetuating problem. Things are getting better though.
I was reading somewhere that 74% of casual gamers are women, so there has to be a market...right ?
Click to expand...
Yes, but that market is too often catered to by salesmen whose understanding of gender is extremely stereotyped. ("This game is targeted at women, so it should consist of gems in pink and purple. This one is targeted at men so everyone should have beefy arms and curse a lot.")

Again, things are slowly changing and thankfully there are always exceptions. But one thing that's for certain is that PZ's empty sniping isn't helping. [ETA: It almost certainly isn't particularly hurting, either.]
 
Last edited:
ThatSoundAgain said:
Well, it's not that easy. The industry sorely needs broader representation of women and minorities (IMO), but in a sense it's a self-perpetuating problem. Things are getting better though.

Yes, but that market is too often catered to by salesmen whose understanding of gender is extremely stereotyped. ("This game is targeted at women, so it should consist of gems in pink and purple. This one is targeted at men so everyone should have beefy arms and curse a lot.")

Again, things are slowly changing and thankfully there are always exceptions. But one thing that's for certain is that PZ's empty sniping isn't helping. [ETA: It almost certainly isn't particularly hurting, either.]
Click to expand...

It's mind boggling that the developers haven't seen and filled that need. One would think that broader appeal would translate directly to larger sales.

Glad to hear things are changing. I have a 7 year old son and I suppose I'll be buying a gaming system in the near future. It'll be interesting to see what sort of characters he picks to play. Will he go for the stereotypical masculine role or do what my buddy did, play a female character ( don't know what game it was Final Fantasy ? ) that he created.

I don't know why he wanted to be a girl with a tail, but there was running around on the screen doing game things.
 
luchog said:
The problem is that there is a definite issue with gender/sexuality as portrayed in gaming, particularly the poor portrayal of female characters, and the near-complete absence of homosexual ones. There is a whole lot of discussion and debate that is still unresolved, or in some cases barely even started. It's unfortunate that intelligent debate over the issue tends to so often get hijacked or lost in the noise once the SJWs jump in.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I've read a number of interesting discussions over the years. But now there is the "official" SJ position that has all the jargon I never saw and none of the points that I did see.
 
Stout said:
It's mind boggling that the developers haven't seen and filled that need. One would think that broader appeal would translate directly to larger sales.
Click to expand...
Well, to some extent, the industry has seen and filled that need. It's just that when an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry does that, things get a bit cartoony. Studio execs seem to think women want Cooking Mama, virtual puppies, and pastel-coloured match-three. Because, you know, of their "nurturing instincts" and "ability to multi-task" and "lack of strategic thinking".

(In reality, I should hasten to add, plenty of women enjoy AAA action games and deep strategy games.)

Real inclusion, on the other hand, means having women participate in the creation from the ground up and help shape the medium. But game development is a male-dominated technical field that has a reputation for not being very welcoming, and change takes time. It is going the right direction, though, if edcation gender balance is any indication.

Glad to hear things are changing. I have a 7 year old son and I suppose I'll be buying a gaming system in the near future. It'll be interesting to see what sort of characters he picks to play. Will he go for the stereotypical masculine role or do what my buddy did, play a female character ( don't know what game it was Final Fantasy ? ) that he created.

I don't know why he wanted to be a girl with a tail, but there was running around on the screen doing game things.
Click to expand...

I'm a big hairy man, and while I'm not particularly gender-conflicted IRL, I often choose to play women characters when given the choice. Mostly it's because women are *********** badass (especially when voiced by Jennifer Hale).
 
ThatSoundAgain said:
Well, to some extent, the industry has seen and filled that need. It's just that when an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry does that, things get a bit cartoony. Studio execs seem to think women want Cooking Mama, virtual puppies, and pastel-coloured match-three. Because, you know, of their "nurturing instincts" and "ability to multi-task" and "lack of strategic thinking".

(In reality, I should hasten to add, plenty of women enjoy AAA action games and deep strategy games.)
Click to expand...
I rather enjoyed Cooking Mama myself; but I like to cool, and I like silly little casual games like that. Not that I'm any good at it. :(

I'm a big hairy man, and while I'm not particularly gender-conflicted IRL, I often choose to play women characters when given the choice. Mostly it's because women are *********** badass (especially when voiced by Jennifer Hale).
Click to expand...
[/quote]
I have very often played female characters of the course of my gaming career. Early on, it was because there was a significant difference between female and male characters in the sorts of games that I liked. In action games, male characters were typically stronger and slower, emphasis on power and defense; while female characters were typically faster and more agile, emphasis on precision, and evasion. I've always preferred being a "light fighter" to a "tank", so female characters were more fun for me. In RPG/Adventure games, male characters tended to be more of the sword-wielding Fighter types; females were more often Magic-Users or Rangers, both of which I preferred to Fighters. Females did tend to get stuck in the Healer roll far more often than not; and costumes (when the graphics got good enough for them to matter) did tend to be quite a bit on the fanservice side.

Even today, a lot of games, particularly the Free-to-Play MMORGPs make similar distinctions between male and female characters; though some do have a better balance. One of my personal favorites has a pretty even mix, two Fighters, a female Tank and a male Grappler; two Fragile Speedster DPSers, a male emphasizing maximum damange with almost no defense, and a female trading some damage for a counter-attack-based defense improvement; and ranged damage provided by a female Squishy Wizard whose roll is moderate-range and AoE damage (and healing), and a Ranger who provides long-range precision damage.

This mix is a bit better than most I've seen, but far from unique. And while the costumes for women tend quite a bit more toward fanservice over function than I'd like, the men also have the chance to show off a bit as well. I'm still stuck as a particular gender, depending on the roll I play; but there's a pretty good balance between them.

But most bigger MMOs these days don't really differentiate between genders that much, and even fanservice tends to be doled out a bit more evenly. And that's the problem with looking for sexism in modern gaming. It's slowly but steadily disappearing; and requires a lot more cherry picking, and even excluding entire genres, to support the extremist SJW viewpoint.
 
ThatSoundAgain said:
Well, to some extent, the industry has seen and filled that need. It's just that when an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry does that, things get a bit cartoony. Studio execs seem to think women want Cooking Mama, virtual puppies, and pastel-coloured match-three. Because, you know, of their "nurturing instincts" and "ability to multi-task" and "lack of strategic thinking".

(In reality, I should hasten to add, plenty of women enjoy AAA action games and deep strategy games.)

Real inclusion, on the other hand, means having women participate in the creation from the ground up and help shape the medium. But game development is a male-dominated technical field that has a reputation for not being very welcoming, and change takes time. It is going the right direction, though, if edcation gender balance is any indication.
Click to expand...

Excellent, glad to hear progress is being made. I was just figuring that if there was a market, it would have been a done deal by now.

I'm a big hairy man, and while I'm not particularly gender-conflicted IRL, I often choose to play women characters when given the choice. Mostly it's because women are *********** badass
Click to expand...

Funny story... five years ago I ended up trapped in a construction site with nothing but a fridge, a computer and two cats. The cats were the reason I had to stay there.

I started playing this online multiperson sword type game. no registration required, just fire it up pick a name and start hacking, or go on a quest. I got good at fighting and since I'd rather have people attacking me I tried a few things.

The first was playing a female character. She was no shrinking violet sexpot, I'm thinking a Joan of Arc type and my thinking was that she'd get attacked as being an easy mark.

It didn't happen...In fact nothing happened. Nobody was rude to me, nobody tried to hit on me, nothing. I played this character for, I dunno, a week or so.

Until I switched back to a male character and played under the name "George Bush", then everybody attacked me. :D

Damned if I can remember the name of the game though.

Was that video you linked to an actual game. I mean, do the characters actually look like that during game play ? The game my buddy was playing was lame compared to that.
 
luchog said:
I rather enjoyed Cooking Mama myself; but I like to cool, and I like silly little casual games like that. Not that I'm any good at it. :(
Click to expand...

Heh, it's easy to unthinkingly swing too far in the other direction and disparage something unfairly. I only chose Cooking Mama as an illustration of a particular type of stereotypical title - nothing wrong with making or liking such a game, but if that's all "female gamers" are offered...

But most bigger MMOs these days don't really differentiate between genders that much, and even fanservice tends to be doled out a bit more evenly. And that's the problem with looking for sexism in modern gaming. It's slowly but steadily disappearing; and requires a lot more cherry picking, and even excluding entire genres, to support the extremist SJW viewpoint.
Click to expand...

yeah, it's going forward. A little much chainmail bikini in MMOs still, for my liking.

Stout said:
It didn't happen...In fact nothing happened. Nobody was rude to me, nobody tried to hit on me, nothing. I played this character for, I dunno, a week or so.

Until I switched back to a male character and played under the name "George Bush", then everybody attacked me. :D
Click to expand...

I don't know when "chivalry" turns into malicious sexism - in this case, it seems an annoying factor. Good that you found a solution.

Was that video you linked to an actual game. I mean, do the characters actually look like that during game play ? The game my buddy was playing was lame compared to that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's Mass Effect, a much lauded recent game series.

It's interesting in this discussion, because you get a named character with a fixed role in the story, but can still choose the gender. Some, like me, think that's why it has one of the stronger and more interesting female characters - it's written with a male hero in mind, and then they get a female voice actor and 3D model to do the same script. That means no clichéed female tropes get in there, and she gets to be a "complex heroic person" just like the male version.

Why that is - that male characters get to be of more varied types - is, to my mind, part of a subtle sexism. But that's a wider problem for art and entertainment in general.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom