New age fraud and critical thinking

[torsprings]

Eek I do apologise for the username typo.

I haven't forgotten krelnik.

 

[Ellen Travis]

Hi Torspring - while I don't want to rain your your parade, you seem to have a very wide and fuzzy definition of "cult". Isaac Bonewits formulated a Cult Danger Evaluation Frame, which serves as a pretty good guide for recognising cults. How does your Reiki Master's group do on that scale? You're in danger of sounding like that particular type of religious convert who does their best to emphasise the awfullness of their former way of life.

You are in danger of sounding rude, patronising and unwelcoming to a newbie IMO.

How can you make any kind of value judgement on torsprings' post when you have no idea which cult she is talking about?

IME (which is extensive) many people in very dangerous cults have not the slightest idea about the true nature of the groups they follow.

If a person leaves a group and feels worried that it may be a cult then they probably have some good reasons for their concerns.

If you wanted to find out more about the group / cult concerned there is a polite way to ask.

And Glastonbury may be 'woo central' to some folks here, but they've clearly never visited the place. Yes, it's got New Age shops and people galore, but it also has slum housing estates, drunks, homeless people with dogs on strings, takeaways, charity shops etc just like any other British town.
I've visited the town, and I have friends there. Just coincidentally, one of them posted on Facebook this morning: "Glastonbury - The only town in the world where you get someone carrying a fully functional, unsheathed scimitar in one hand, and a Cornish pasty from Burns the Bread in the other....."

I know people in Glastonbury also.
Yes there are all kinds of mundane problems but these are not mutually exclusive to cults, of which there are plenty in Glastonbury, some of them are extremely dangerous.

I hope that anyone here considering inviting torspings to talk on a podcast appreciates that this may be a dangerous thing for her to do if steps are not taken to protect his / her identity.

 

[dlorde]

You are in danger of sounding rude, patronising and unwelcoming to a newbie IMO.

How can you make any kind of value judgement on torsprings' post when you have no idea which cult she is talking about?

Sophia's post seems like fair comment - the OP appeared to be describing a cult-like involvement with Reiki, which isn't normally described in that way.

 

[Ellen Travis]

Sophia's post seems like fair comment - the OP appeared to be describing a cult-like involvement with Reiki, which isn't normally described in that way.

I am sadly familiar with many very serious and dangerous cults being involved with Reiki and other forms of energy healing.

That's not to say that every person who does Reiki is in a cult or a cult leader, however it is not at all unusual for dangerous cults to recruit useful idiots into their franchising schemes. Those same useful idiots then go on to recruit further victims for them. Typical useful idiots include plastic shamans, Hopi ear candlers, energy healers (including Reiki practitioners), tarot card readers, psychics and mediums, crystal skull mongers and a whole range of other woo merchants.

It is not that there is anything intrinsically harmful about Reiki, just that Reiki practitioners are part of the targeted demographic of very large, transnational OC networks IME.

These criminals target people who believe in supernatural phenomena simply because they have devised complex long cons involving apparent supernatural phenomena as part of their MOs and people who believe in supernatural phenomena are easier to take advantage of than people who don't.

Also a belief in supernatural phenomena runs across class and income divides. There is a lot of money to be made from affluent new agers and the criminals target affluent woo believers with great care, usually using facebook and other social networking websites to identify potential victims.

If someone tells me that they have been attending a Reiki group (or any other apparently comparatively harmless group) and says that the group has become cult like and abusive I pay attention and do not just dismiss it out of hand. Cults are businesses and they operate as businesses and if it makes sense for them to target Reiki groups (which it does) they will simply do it. Criminals are unconcerned about the harmlessness (or not) of any kind of woo intervention. They just care that there is someone out there who they can manipulate for financial gain and Reiki is an indication of a nice juicy victim just as vultures circling overhead indicate dinner time for hungry carnivores.

IME

 

[dlorde]

If someone tells me that they have been attending a Reiki group (or any other apparently comparatively harmless group) and says that the group has become cult like and abusive I pay attention and do not just dismiss it out of hand. Cults are businesses and they operate as businesses and if it makes sense for them to target Reiki groups (which it does) they will simply do it. Criminals are unconcerned about the harmlessness (or not) of any kind of woo intervention. They just care that there is someone out there who they can manipulate for financial gain and Reiki is an indication of a nice juicy victim just as vultures circling overhead indicate dinner time for hungry carnivores.

OK; there appears to be some semantic overlap here between what's seen as organised crime, cults, and Reiki. That's pretty much what Sophia seemed to be commenting on with "...a very wide and fuzzy definition of 'cult'".

 

[Ellen Travis]

OK; there appears to be some semantic overlap here between what's seen as organised crime, cults, and Reiki. That's pretty much what Sophia seemed to be commenting on with "...a very wide and fuzzy definition of 'cult'".

Sure

different people mean different things by cults tis true

The fact is that there is a lot of overlap between organised crime, cults and Reiki.

The presence of Reiki on its own does not of course indicate either organised crime or cults but when a person reports concerns about a Reiki group being a cult in the making I am interested to hear more about it and take that person's concerns extremely seriously.

IME there are two main concerns about Reiki, the first as I described in earlier posts is simply that it is a woo based activity and thus likely to attract a particular kind of criminal for the reasons I described.

The second is that, as a form of "energy healing" it attracts the attention of sexual predators like this man
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9911602/Reiki-Master-jailed-for-abusing-patients.html

Sometimes, if a person is very unlucky, they will get a double whammy of sexual predator / serious organised criminal of which there are plenty in Glastonbury and in fact the south west of England seems to be a problematic area for this kind of thing.

I do not know the OP and I have no idea about the specifics of his or her concerns but I just wanted to make the point that those concerns should be at least listened to and taken seriously and not ridiculed.

 

[torsprings]

Interestingly my Reiki master claimed to be special.
He claimed he had experienced a major shift in his consciousness where he made some profound realizations about the nature of reality. He practiced his own version of Reiki with his own Reiki master symbol that he had received (channeled) from his ascended masters. The master symbol represents his group and still does. Eg it was painted on the ceiling at both my attunements. Actually he doesn't seem to mention Reiki much now, he has moved on to other things with the group.

 

[Ellen Travis]

Not another "special" Reiki master! They are all special so one who claimed not to be special would actually be fairly remarkable

Ah, so he's a channeller of "ascended masters" as well. I'm curious as to what the other things are he has moved on to. Some kind of fake shamanism would be my educated guess but it could be anything.

Does he have a website / facebook page?

Please PM me if you feel comfortable to do so, if not no worries.

 

[Kataleena]

Hi, Torsprings, as you know (from reading my thread about fraudulent mediums), we have similar experiences! New Age definitely messed with my head and I now have to deprogram myself from constantly thinking I need "magic" in my life and instead be happy with the practical, day to day happenings of my wonderful family, friends, home, pets...instead of trying to meditate, visualize my chakras and worrying if I have holes in my aura that will cause me to attract bad things. It is ridiculous.

That way of thinking is definitely fear mongering, and the new age frauds want us to go straight to them for "help" and guidance on how to "do things right." Sadly, Ellen Travis' statement below is soooo true.

These criminals target people who believe in supernatural phenomena simply because they have devised complex long cons involving apparent supernatural phenomena as part of their MOs and people who believe in supernatural phenomena are easier to take advantage of than people who don't.

Also a belief in supernatural phenomena runs across class and income divides. There is a lot of money to be made from affluent new agers and the criminals target affluent woo believers with great care, usually using facebook and other social networking websites to identify potential victims.

IME

I am a victim, not of an actual cult, but of a belief in supernatural phenomena and especially believing that the self-proclaimed mediums out there really do talk to spirits all the time. It's so silly..I am trying hard not to be completely embarrassed, you know?

 

[Ellen Travis]

I now have to deprogram myself from constantly thinking I need "magic" in my life and instead be happy with the practical, day to day happenings of my wonderful family, friends, home, pets...instead of trying to meditate, visualize my chakras and worrying if I have holes in my aura that will cause me to attract bad things. It is ridiculous.

The new age crooks generally have a pretty thorough understanding of human psychology. They present their potential victims with fictional scenarios about curses, ancestral bad karma, holes in auras and so on and so forth because they know that many people will be frightened into complying with their demands for money as a result. The usual scam is to persuade the victim to pay large amounts of money for various services that protect against curses / burn bad karma / placate the spirits of the ancestors / whatever.

Sometimes victims of these criminals are pressurised and coerced into becoming bit part actors in various long cons (and thus an accessory to crime) or persuaded to stalk or harass perceived "enemies" of the criminal/s.

It is so horrible that for money these people are prepared to ruin people's lives and play with their relationships and emotions as if they were simply a pawn in a game of chess. Kind, gentle people can end up being drawn into some fairly unpleasant things via involvement in these groups.

That way of thinking is definitely fear mongering, and the new age frauds want us to go straight to them for "help" and guidance on how to "do things right."

It is great that you recognise this. You have learned a lot from your experience I hope that it wasn't too tough a lesson.

I am a victim, not of an actual cult, but of a belief in supernatural phenomena and especially believing that the self-proclaimed mediums out there really do talk to spirits all the time. It's so silly..I am trying hard not to be completely embarrassed, you know?

No need to be embarrassed. Lots of highly intelligent people believe in all kinds of things and IMO none of us really understands what is going on in the world, I certainly don't.

The important things are that you have started to think about things in a rational and discerning way and have discovered some good friendly, supportive people who enjoy thinking creatively about things with you.

You have also managed to educate yourself about the issues and discovered a lot of empowering information that should help you to avoid "psychic" scammers and new age frauds in the future. You are a stronger and wiser person today then you were yesterday or last week or last year, which is something to feel good about I think

 

[torsprings]

Not another "special" Reiki master! They are all special so one who claimed not to be special would actually be fairly remarkable

Ah, so he's a channeller of "ascended masters" as well. I'm curious as to what the other things are he has moved on to. Some kind of fake shamanism would be my educated guess but it could be anything.

Does he have a website / facebook page?

Please PM me if you feel comfortable to do so, if not no worries.

Hi Ellen
I have PM the groups website. Thanks for sharing your views.

 

[torsprings]

Hi, Torsprings, as you know (from reading my thread about fraudulent mediums), we have similar experiences!


I am a victim, not of an actual cult, but of a belief in supernatural phenomena and especially believing that the self-proclaimed mediums out there really do talk to spirits all the time. It's so silly..I am trying hard not to be completely embarrassed, you know?

Hi Kataleena,

Don't be embarrassed, you have courage to question things. Good on you

 

[Kataleena]

Thank you, torsprings and Ellen T.!! Yes I certainly have learned a lot. And no it was not a difficult or unpleasant time, it's just that I've shocked myself in realizing how gullible I can be, lol!

All's good because now instead of constantly buying new agey books, I will have some money for new clothes...instead of spending time reading that NA crap, I can finally get to some real novels by wonderful authors who have amazing imaginations who genuinely want to tell an amazing story, not someone peddling their workshops and classes in their fluff-and-filler books that repeat the same message over and over. I now have more time to get back to playing the piano instead of trying to meditate, still myself and do the chakra cleansing, white light protection all while trying to maintain a "high vibration" and not have any negative thoughts or emotions so that spirit can flow freely within me.. lololol! Lord, how nutty!

 

[torsprings]

And no it was not a difficult or unpleasant time, it's just that I've shocked myself in realizing how gullible I can be, lol!

Good point. Yes it was the same for me. Luckily I enjoyed it at the time (there is a misconception that you must have suffered and be bitter and twisted) but I had fooled myself with a lot of woo help. The point of my OP was how easy it is to be taken in. Once I started to question things critically and stopped believing, I actually felt like a fraud myself.

 

[ExMinister]

....all while trying to maintain a "high vibration" and not have any negative thoughts or emotions so that spirit can flow freely within me.. lololol! Lord, how nutty!

It's so funny to read this in someone else's words. I still have problems with this. Whenever I think negatively or feel some excessively negative emotion, there is still this part of me that feels it could somehow attract negative spirits or events to me. I still can't allow myself to be judgmental, although I no longer have problems identifying bad behavior as bad. For so many years I believed this kind of thing to be unspiritual, it just still feels somehow wrong. It's not a logical thing, it's purely emotional. I guess 20-year-old habits do not die easily.

 

[s_pepys]

Good point. Yes it was the same for me. Luckily I enjoyed it at the time (there is a misconception that you must have suffered and be bitter and twisted) but I had fooled myself with a lot of woo help. The point of my OP was how easy it is to be taken in. Once I started to question things critically and stopped believing, I actually felt like a fraud myself.

i just have to say you are both the opposite of gullible.

as i said earlier, this kind of rubbish is all around the uk at the moment and not believing it "along" with everyone else leads to a difficult time simply keeping my gob shut.

everyone from teachers, nurses, youth workers, road sweepers beleives some of this crap and they mix and match with other woo (especially new world order and other ct's). have you noticed this in your experiences in glastonbury?

could you possibly pm me the website too. would like too take a look.

well done again

 

[torsprings]

everyone from teachers, nurses, youth workers, road sweepers beleives some of this crap and they mix and match with other woo (especially new world order and other ct's). have you noticed this in your experiences in glastonbury?

Yes the group has indeed mixed and matched their woo.
I have PM'd the link
Thanks for the support

 

[Ellen Travis]

everyone from teachers, nurses, youth workers, road sweepers, doctors, lawyers, famous PR gurus, counsellors, psychotherapists, psychiatrists, senior politicians, the wives of senior politicians, celebrities and even the heir to the throne and his consort believe some of this crap

there fixed it for you

 

[Ellen Travis]

I checked out the link that torspings sent me and did some digging.

All I can say is that IME torspings had a lucky escape and did well to get out when s/he did.

There are some extremely troubling things going on in the group and we need to take care to preserve torspings' anonymity on the thread and if s/he does a podcast.

 

[s_pepys]

I checked out the link that torspings sent me and did some digging.

All I can say is that IME torspings had a lucky escape and did well to get out when s/he did.

There are some extremely troubling things going on in the group and we need to take care to preserve torspings' anonymity on the thread and if s/he does a podcast.

absolutely seconded. just keep walking away.

lxxx