Looking for non-pseudoscientific Floride toxicology research

[Willowfrond]

Willow I'm just one of the many people who are going to tell you that fluoride, in correct concentrations, will do no harm and will do good as far as oral health is concerned.

I'm wondering, and don't feel insulted, but what was your kid's diet? To have caries at that age, to have kidney stones...it's not the water it's the entire diet of your kid or he may have something worse, but oh well.

Lowpro please read the earlier posts a little more carefully - how can dosing our water provide the "correct" concentrations given the variables of how much one drinks, ones' size, ones' medications? WHO states that before fluoridation an assessment should be made of current natural sources of fluoridation in the area.

I am as insulted (very) by you as I was by the dentist who quizzed me on diet and dental hygiene at the time. My child rarely had any of the foods or drinks implicated - I was very aware of acidic fruits as well as the more usual sweets and sodas, overall I planned his diet very carefully - so I mean rarely and was supervised brushing with fluoride toothpaste three times per day at that stage - two times per day for two years of school. As for the kidney stones the specialist in that case was interested in information on diet not as a criticism but as a guide to understanding, his comment was that he was seeing a disturbing increase in stones in children.

And to finish you may be just one of the people but hey there are lot's of people on the other side of any debate, the earth was flat for a very long time!

 

[Willowfrond]

Fluoridated water reduces caries and has shown to be an effective policy for all area

Well Lowpro it has been introduced in a lot of areas, so could you please post links to the results for ALL of them?

 

[Lowpro]

No I wont and I don't need to to demonstrate the efficacy of fluoridated water at the proper dose. When I get back to Birmingham ill get more in depth

 

[Willowfrond]

excuse me?

You don't need to demonstrate?
Well that is easily explained, the approved "dose" cannot be achieved by a blanket introduction into the water supply! That assumes a universal consumption over the population and neglects to take into account the variables. Neglects to take into account the build up in crops watered with fluoridated water which even WHO recommends!
Where does this get so difficult for you pro people? You cannot assume the water consumption of all people per body mass,you cannot assume their intake from other sources, you cannot assume their individual sensitivities.

 

[The Don]

Lowpro please read the earlier posts a little more carefully - how can dosing our water provide the "correct" concentrations given the variables of how much one drinks, ones' size, ones' medications? WHO states that before fluoridation an assessment should be made of current natural sources of fluoridation in the area.

Well what it can do is to provide a beneficial level of fluoride to the vast majority of the population. Do you have evidence that in the United States water companies are introducing fluoride without carrying out an assessment ?

I am as insulted (very) by you as I was by the dentist who quizzed me on diet and dental hygiene at the time. My child rarely had any of the foods or drinks implicated - I was very aware of acidic fruits as well as the more usual sweets and sodas, overall I planned his diet very carefully - so I mean rarely and was supervised brushing with fluoride toothpaste three times per day at that stage - two times per day for two years of school. As for the kidney stones the specialist in that case was interested in information on diet not as a criticism but as a guide to understanding, his comment was that he was seeing a disturbing increase in stones in children.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence. If that specialist has seen an increase then I'm sure that he or she has published a paper on the subject.

And to finish you may be just one of the people but hey there are lot's of people on the other side of any debate, the earth was flat for a very long time!

Provide compelling evidence and I'm sure that (almost) everyone here would be happy to read it and change their opinion, I certainly would. So far what we have is anecdotal evidence and perceived links.

 

[Lowpro]

Look ill handle this when I get to Birmingham, but willow your stories reflect the addage "don't let the fa ts get in the way of a good lie" fluorosis is NOT an side effect of treated water its a side effect of toxicological overdose of fluoride. Fluoride should be monitered byits demographic and it is, but errors are made. A few occurred in Alabama as a matter of fact. But that is an issue of human error, not fluoride's efficacy.

In the case of your kid, he is an oddity and you should find out more about his condition. It could be that your water is OVERfluoridated, or it could be a host of pathological problems too, so call me sick but I find your kids case interesting even moreso because from what I can glean is your community doesn't suffer from fluorosis which should be a flag in your reasoning.

Again ill be here soon with sources, In the meantime you should check pubmed

 

[RobDegraves]

@willowfrond

OK.. first of all I sighed because you are simply bringing up something that has been debunked about a gazillion times and people like you don't tend to listen to other people's arguments. You say you want people to present reasoned arguments but you don't listen when we do. Just a general observation. Now.. to be specific.

1.

Weak Kitten therein lies the problem, the symptoms that can be attributed to systemic fluorosis are mainly those vague, gastro intestinal disturbances, metabolic disturbances, lethargy, depression, ... the major ones like "brittle bones" calcification of ligaments wont be seen until the person has been ingesting fluoride for many years and are largely put down to "aging".

So... you are basically saying that the symptoms you are complaining about are indistinguishable from other causes.

How do you know they are not caused by other causes?

2.

I have just ordered a distillation unit. Why? I've got dental cavities and dental fluorosis,

How do you know those symptoms are not caused by something else?



Here's the thing.

CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.

I rarely, if ever, write in caps. I felt that that statement is important enough to warrant it.

As far as your variables are concerned... it would only matter if there was a thin line between the correct dose and a harmful dose.

What is the correct dose for water? We know we need to drink some every day... but we also get some from other sources all the time. Is that a problem do you think?

The level of fluoride in various sources has been looked at by a number of medical organization in a large number of actual scientific studies (which I suppose I could link to, or you could just read on your own) and currently exists at what is seen as the conservatively effective level.



In conclusion... yes you are a medical crank.


Unless you can show causation between the problems you complain about and fluoride, you don't have a case.

As an added bonus...

Abstract Fluoridation of water is a controversial measure because of the suspicion that it has harmful effects on health. Opinions differ as to the reality of these fears. In Kuopio, after distressing disputes over the fluoridation issue, the City Council decided to stop fluoridation at the end of 1992. In fact, however, it was discontinued at the end of November, one month early, without the public being told. The aim of this study was to find out whether the occurrence of 25 selected symptoms was connected with exposure to fluoridated water. In order to do this we compared the prevalence of symptoms during the months before and after the undisclosed cessation of fluoridation and after the cessation had been officially announced. Postal inquiries concerning symptoms were sent to 1000 randomly selected adults in November, to a further 1000 in December 1992 and again to the same 2000 people in March 1993. The response rates were 40–26%. The percentage of those with two or more symptoms was the same (45%) in November and in December but decreased to 32% in March. The mean number of symptoms per respondent decreased from 1.9 in November to 1.4 in March (P<0.001) and in December-March from 1.8 to 1.2. The decrease was most significant for symptoms related to the skin. Since the occurrence and mean number of symptoms were fairly similar during actual and supposed fluoridation, the results do not support the theory that the symptoms considered in this study are caused by the physical effect of fluoridated water. On the other hand, the significant reduction in the number of symptoms only after the respondents had become aware of the discontinuation of fluoridation reveals that fluoridation may have psychological effects which present as perceived symptoms.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0528.1997.tb00942.x/abstract;jsessionid=48DEA0134B7249828728FA503B04CA83.d01t04?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+3+Mar+from+10-13+GMT+for+monthly+maintenance

 

[paulhutch]

The Wikipedia History of water fluoridation^WP article has a baker's dozen of references. This topic, like evolution and CO2 as a green house gas, has over a century of good science backing up the consensus. The oldest reference in the Wiki article is from the Lancet in 1892.

 

[Tomblvd]

As to sodium fluoride toxicology (that is the type used in toothpaste and drinking water and I assume that is what you mean) just google "sodium fluoride hazard rating".

I was going to endeavor to go through your post point by point but I then read this, and realized it was useless since this is about as simple a fact about fluoride that there is, and you got it wrong.

The rest of your post is equally incompetent.

 

[Tomblvd]

It seems the web is filled with a very great number of very dubious sources claiming that a variety of harmful effects have been linked with water fluoridation - nerve damage, bone fragility.

Might anyone be able to point me in the direction of something more scientifically valid? A source, for instance, that understands the difference between correlation and causation? I cannot imagine that in the decades since water fluoridation began there have not been significant amounts of peer-reviewed fluoride toxicology research.

Thanks

Others have given links to studies, so I'll just give you this to think about. Fluoride is the 13th most common element on Earth. Fluoride is present in most water supplies, most only at a trace level. There are many places on the planet, however, where ground water levels of fluoride are much higher than the recommended level. These areas are known and some are very well studied.

What is clear is that in every place with high (but not excessively high -- see certain areas of India) fluoride levels, the only symptom to show is mild fluorosis of the teeth (that is white spotting, not brown spotting with stippled enamel). If fluoride is as dangerous as some say, why don't these areas show elevated disease levels?

 

[billw]

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

Discussing this on the CT forum presently.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252546

Stop on by.

 

[fuelair]

"sigh"

What an informed response! Derision is a little sad don't you think?

Could you possibly produce a list of deaths caused by fluridation by percent of population, location and amount of fluride in said water supply. I ask because I have reason to believe it will be minimal at worst. The primary problem - where there has been any - has been a brownish stain developing
on the teeth . Invariably this is where fluride was added to water already containing the amount or more needed for tooth protection. Does not tend to occur in the US, etc. as that problem was early and short.

No offense, this is siliness that was debunked long,long ago - that's why I suggested looking for the numbers.............

 

[Weak Kitten]

I doubt you'll get a response Fuelair. Zombie thread has resurrected without its OP

 

[Abooga]

Bump

Is it true that fluoride accumulates in the body? If that is the case, there is a significant difference between the addition of chlorine and fluoride to water, isn´t it?

 

[Abooga]

This topic, like evolution and CO2 as a green house gas, has over a century of good science backing up the consensus.

What consensus? It is banned in most of Europe...

After reading this and other related threads I find it quite striking the strident and dismissive tone of the pro-fluoride posters. Why can´t we discuss this without resorting to calling names and trying to ridicule the anti-fluoride posters?

 

[The Don]

What consensus? It is banned in most of Europe...

After reading this and other related threads I find it quite striking the strident and dismissive tone of the pro-fluoride posters. Why can´t we discuss this without resorting to calling names and trying to ridicule the anti-fluoride posters?

Sure, provide the peer-reviewed evidence of the harmful effects of water fluoridation and we can all discuss it.

 

[Abooga]

Sure, provide the peer-reviewed evidence of the harmful effects of water fluoridation and we can all discuss it.

I guess most European countries couldn´t find enough "peer-reviewed evidence of the absence of harmful effects of water fluoridation", since it is banned in most European countries.

I´m quite new to this controversy, but looking at the Wikipedia article, it doesn´t seem such a clear cut case.

Water is not fuorised in my town here in Spain, and I´m happy for that. In fact, I have another objection to fluorisation of water supplies, that I think hasn´t been mentioned, and it is that I don´t trust my water suppliers to keep the required concentration regular. It is a know fact locally that the chlorine concentration varies from day to day (sometimes it smells like a swimming pool), so how are we to trust them adding fluoride to water?

Another objection that I think hasn´t been duely answered is about bottle fed babies. Bottled water for them? What about plastic residues in bottled water...?

 

[kookbreaker]

I guess most European countries couldn´t find enough "peer-reviewed evidence of the absence of harmful effects of water fluoridation", since it is banned in most European countries.

A five second google search shows that "banned" is a gross overstatement. Most European countries may have never bothered with Fluoridation but that does not mean it was banned.

Secondly, I tend to take EU health actions with a grain of salt. This is the same EU that is banning Silly Putty, you know.

I´m quite new to this controversy, but looking at the Wikipedia article, it doesn´t seem such a clear cut case.

Water is not fuorised in my town here in Spain, and I´m happy for that. In fact, I have another objection to fluorisation of water supplies, that I think hasn´t been mentioned, and it is that I don´t trust my water suppliers to keep the required concentration regular. It is a know fact locally that the chlorine concentration varies from day to day (sometimes it smells like a swimming pool), so how are we to trust them adding fluoride to water?

It is sad that you have such an incompetent water department. But this does not make properly added Fluoride a danger, and the health benefits can be very good, especially in poor areas.

 

[The Don]

I guess most European countries couldn´t find enough "peer-reviewed evidence of the absence of harmful effects of water fluoridation", since it is banned in most European countries.

I´m quite new to this controversy, but looking at the Wikipedia article, it doesn´t seem such a clear cut case.

Water is not fuorised in my town here in Spain, and I´m happy for that. In fact, I have another objection to fluorisation of water supplies, that I think hasn´t been mentioned, and it is that I don´t trust my water suppliers to keep the required concentration regular. It is a know fact locally that the chlorine concentration varies from day to day (sometimes it smells like a swimming pool), so how are we to trust them adding fluoride to water?

Another objection that I think hasn´t been duely answered is about bottle fed babies. Bottled water for them? What about plastic residues in bottled water...?

You've asked that we discuss the subject at hand and not resort to name calling but to do that we need something to discuss.

As kookbreaker points out, Europe mostly hasn't banned fluoridation. In some countries it has never been introduced, in others (conveniently enough like the UK and Spain) it is in place for a proportion of the population.

Where it has been banned or withdrawn, the reasons given relate to personal liberty (Germany) or better delivery mechanisms (Sweden) rather than specific dangers.

Unless of course you can provide different information.