Looking for non-pseudoscientific Floride toxicology research

Shadowdweller

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It seems the web is filled with a very great number of very dubious sources claiming that a variety of harmful effects have been linked with water fluoridation - nerve damage, bone fragility.

Might anyone be able to point me in the direction of something more scientifically valid? A source, for instance, that understands the difference between correlation and causation? I cannot imagine that in the decades since water fluoridation began there have not been significant amounts of peer-reviewed fluoride toxicology research.

Thanks
 
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Personally, adding flouride to water seems like a dumb move. No, not listing peer-review studies but if you want people to protect their teeth, teach them to brush well and so forth.

Even if the studies say the amount is Ok, I just don't see the benefit. You drink water. It does not stay on your teeth for long. Are they really suggesting adding flouride to your system is helpful?
 
randman said:
Personally, adding flouride to water seems like a dumb move. No, not listing peer-review studies but if you want people to protect their teeth, teach them to brush well and so forth.

Even if the studies say the amount is Ok, I just don't see the benefit. You drink water. It does not stay on your teeth for long. Are they really suggesting adding flouride to your system is helpful?
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randman, traces of stuff stick around in the mouth a lot longer than you think. By your same reasoning, sugar doesn't stick around long in the mouth, either(it dissolves in saliva, which is then swallowed), so it shouldn't cause tooth decay.

Shadowdweller, try the wiki "Flouride" page. They reference a metastudy by Griffin, Regnier, Griffin and Huntley (2007).
 
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randman said:
Personally, adding flouride to water seems like a dumb move. No, not listing peer-review studies but if you want people to protect their teeth, teach them to brush well and so forth.

Even if the studies say the amount is Ok, I just don't see the benefit. You drink water. It does not stay on your teeth for long. Are they really suggesting adding flouride to your system is helpful?
Click to expand...

There's enough evidence that shows water flouridation reduces tooth decay. Here's a source.
 
randman said:
Even if the studies say the amount is Ok, I just don't see the benefit. You drink water. It does not stay on your teeth for long. Are they really suggesting adding flouride to your system is helpful?
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I'm not completely sure of the mechanism, but my understanding is that ingested fluoride becomes incorporated into bones and teeth (in the same manner that calcium would otherwise be deposited). This makes teeth more resistant to cavities and makes bone thicker in proper doses but somewhat more fragile...particularly when concentrations become too high. Fluoride has been used to treat osteoporosis.

WhatRoughBeast said:
Shadowdweller, try the wiki "Flouride" page. They reference a metastudy by Griffin, Regnier, Griffin and Huntley (2007).
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I've seen that before, thanks. Hoping to find more than a single metastudy. Particularly interested in what negative effects from fluoride toxicity have been reasonably well established (beyond browning of the teeth) and at what concentrations. As well as which alleged effects have been....contraindicated?...by research.
 
randman said:
Even if the studies say the amount is Ok, I just don't see the benefit. You drink water. It does not stay on your teeth for long. Are they really suggesting adding flouride to your system is helpful?
Click to expand...

Only as an aside, and no I don't know the effects of flouride except in excess but here's a serious thing. When people say "water doesn't stay on your teeth for long" they're stupid. ANY acid will damage enamel, that's just the nature of acids they react IMMEDIATELY. It's not a matter of how long, it's a matter of exposure. I work in a dental lab; the nature of acids on hydroxyapatite and enamel are VERY MUCH familiar to me.

Fluoride's purpose is to create an environment that SLOWS caries, and enables you to basically "beat" their rate of demineralization. Flouride, as a mechanism, SHOULD help, though I know of know of no cohort studied that help. sorry. It's not to "treat" water but to actually inhibit the rate of demineralization of caries.

randman what you said actually scares the (!@# out of me, PLEASE don't repeat such ignorance.

http://www.who.int/oral_health/media/en/orh_cdoe_319to321.pdf
 
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Shadowdweller said:
It seems the web is filled with a very great number of very dubious sources claiming that a variety of harmful effects have been linked with water fluoridation - nerve damage, bone fragility.

Might anyone be able to point me in the direction of something more scientifically valid? A source, for instance, that understands the difference between correlation and causation? I cannot imagine that in the decades since water fluoridation began there have not been significant amounts of peer-reviewed fluoride toxicology research.

Thanks
Click to expand...


Did you try Google, fluoride toxicity?

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/814774-overview#a0104

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity
 
What is so difficult about U followed by O?
UndOne
Bugger Off
SUperbOy.
SUOth Pacific*
FlUOride.

Easy.


*This may not be the best example.
 
can't post links yet

There are some articles here:google scholar, fluoride + fluorosis + research + laboratories

Fluorosis definitely does exist and it is caused by consuming too much fluoride (actually flourine delivered by a fluoride compound) over time as it accumulates in the body. There are levels of fluorosis and many of the symptoms can be caused by other conditions, which confuses the issue and may lead to under reporting.
One tube of fluoride toothpaste contains enough fluoride to kill a small child.
As to adding fluoride to our water supply? It doesn't seem like good science to me; consider the variables.
Size of the person drinking the water - how many medications or supplements are given at the same dosage for everyone from infants to adults.
Consumption - highly active people tend to drink more water and therefore consume more fluoride. Infants fed formula made with the water have the highest ingestion by body weight.
Diet - fluoride is present in foods, in black (as opposed to green) tea it is particularly high. It will be higher in crops that are grown using fluoridated irrigation water.
Medication - anesthetics, antacids, antibiotics, anti deppresants, anti fungals, antihistamines, antilepemics, anti malarial, antimetabolites, appetite supressants, anti arthritics, psychotropics, steroids. Can contain Fluoride.

How can it make sense to set the amount of fluoride per volume of water?
How can it not make sense to evaluate individually?

Look at your toothpaste - it will say sodium fluoride which is the same thing that is added to the water. The anti fluoride camp say that the sodium fluoride used is industrial waste from aluminium or fertilizer production or nuclear reactors (South Africa). The pro fluoride camp do not deny this or state that the waste is treated to remove any other undesirable chemicals.
The anti fluoride side of the debate is weakened by some of it's members being highly vocal on conspiracy theories, allowing non thinking, non researching, individuals to discount much of what is said.

Also wikipedia Fluoridation_by_country
Pick a country and google it's tooth caries rate you will have an interesting time if you do a few of them.

What is your definition of non-pseudoscientific? You might like to search for Dr Dean Burk and note his qualification and experience and then see the results of his study on cancer deaths over ten years of records. Pseudoscience?

As to sodium fluoride toxicology (that is the type used in toothpaste and drinking water and I assume that is what you mean) just google "sodium fluoride hazard rating".

I have just ordered a distillation unit. Why? I've got dental cavities and dental fluorosis, my dentist whose qualifications are as good as any others does not use fluoride or recommend fluoride toothpaste. I've been researching fluoride for days and have no faith in the pseudoscience of adding it to drinking water or brushing my teeth with fluoride toothpaste.
I asked my doctor if she was aware of fluorosis? answer "It occurs when there is too much fluoride", if she knew the source of fluoride in our tap water is it pharmacetical grade? answer "no but I assume it's pharmaceutical grade", how much fluoride I would consume in a day if I drank 2 litres of water per day? answer "I don't know" How much fluoride per day would a baby fed formula made with tap water consume? answer "OMG":jaw-dropp - she treats a lot of babies. If she had heard of Dean Burk and his research? answer "no".
I like my doctor and I consider her to be a professional in every regard but she had never looked beyond what she was taught at med school and the conspiracy theory.
 
Sigh...

What is your definition of non-pseudoscientific? You might like to search for Dr Dean Burk and note his qualification and experience and then see the results of his study on cancer deaths over ten years of records. Pseudoscience?
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ok...


After retiring form the NCI in 1974 Dean Burk remained active. He devoted himself to his opposition to water fluoridation.[6][7] According to Burk "fluoridation is a form of public mass murder."[8][9] Dean Burk argued against water fluoridation proposal before the Dutch Parliament in the Netherlands.[9] Dean Burk also published on alternative cancer treatments, notably laetrile,[10] which was considered quackery already in the 1970s.
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So... what about that laetrile then?
 
Interesting

So because a person is wrong about one thing, he must automatically be wrong about everything? Not a lot of hope for most of us then?

Having gone and read now about Laetrile (did you?) I certainly wouldn't be taking it! So kudos on that.

How much have you read about flourosis either naturally occurring or induced? About the areas of the body that the 50% of fluoride you don't excrete accumulates in? About the effects on those on dialysis when fluoridated water is used? About the long term effects of dental fluorosis? The WHO recommendations for fluoridation, which includes an analysis of the population in an area to be fluoridated (or not) to establish the requirement? WHO has never been followed in my area, just blanket add it to the water.

What is your stance on the variables?
My point here is that when adding to the water supply, the daily consumption of individuals varies widely, add to that the fact that effects are cumulative and sickness does not present for many years....does this not seem a "hit and miss" procedure?
Why if I am thirstier than you do I have to ingest more fluoride unless I get a distillation unit? I may be a lot smaller than you and therefore my consumption Vs body mass will be skewed.
We all need vitamins and minerals, would you support adding them to water given that some do have toxic effects on overdose? If so how would you establish a baseline that would ensure adequate consumption in minimal water consumers that avoided overdose in maximum consumers?
How would you factor in body mass?
Overdose in this case would see immediate results with people being stricken quickly and the symptoms quite clear cut but not everyone would be hurt and in fact some would be helped.
The first principal of medicine is "first do no harm"!

Are you willing to get a distillation unit and test your water and your own body? You can use your fluoride toothpaste to protect your teeth.

Keep drinking the water, good onya mate hope the hip fracture doesn't hur too much.
 
Is there any evidence of mass fluoride poisoning in the areas of the country that add fluoride to their water? It has been going on for decades now, is that enough time to show any effects?
 
The human body is complex

Almo sorry you are confused.
Weak Kitten therein lies the problem, the symptoms that can be attributed to systemic fluorosis are mainly those vague, gastro intestinal disturbances, metabolic disturbances, lethargy, depression, ... the major ones like "brittle bones" calcification of ligaments wont be seen until the person has been ingesting fluoride for many years and are largely put down to "aging".
Dental fluorosis is accepted as a somewhat unfortunate side effect of fluoridation.
Hip fracture is definitely on the rise but is seen as a consequence of having an increased life expectancy, gastro intestinal upsets and metabolic disturbances are dismissed as being a result of processed foods, lethargy and depression as by products of a modern lifestyle.
Add to that the variables, I don't want to sound like I'm harping on but they are so very important. Add to that exposure in the womb, I wasn't and have no dental fluorosis, my son was and does have dental fluorosis and needed fillings in his baby teeth (he also had his first kidney stone at age 11 kidney stones is just one complaint on the rise in children). No proof that it is fluoride, no proof that it is not - do no harm! Add to that the use of this treated water on crops thereby increasing fluoride concentrations is foodstuffs but who eats what?
So yes it is confusing :confused: It's cumulative but the accumulation cn be so slow as to be ignored.
There are many complaints with the same vague symptoms, Hypothyroid, Fibromyalgia, Chronic stress......could fluoride actually be the underlying cause?
Personally I have to put depression in the major category - I do not know if fluoride is "the cause" "part of the cause" "nothing to do with it" but I do know that I object to my government adding a chemical that is recognized as hazardous and may be contributing into my water supply. Prior to the hazardous tag i.e. before fluoridation it was more simply labelled "toxic"
If the six countries that fluoridate over 50% of their water supply (yes only 6) continue to do so, while countries like India and China continue to run defluoridation programs continue to do so I'm sure some statistics will surface. Providing of course that international exchange of information continues - I have never in ten plus years of internet researching on any topic come across so many internal server errors or 404 page unavailable. I HATE that that sounds like a conspiracy theory statement but it is simply the truth!:eye-poppi
So I guess just do your own researching and draw your own conclusions. My personal conclusion I have already stated I'm going to distill.
 
Willowfrond said:
Almo sorry you are confused.
Weak Kitten therein lies the problem, the symptoms that can be attributed to systemic fluorosis are mainly those vague, gastro intestinal disturbances, metabolic disturbances, lethargy, depression, ... the major ones like "brittle bones" calcification of ligaments wont be seen until the person has been ingesting fluoride for many years and are largely put down to "aging".
Dental fluorosis is accepted as a somewhat unfortunate side effect of fluoridation.
Hip fracture is definitely on the rise but is seen as a consequence of having an increased life expectancy, gastro intestinal upsets and metabolic disturbances are dismissed as being a result of processed foods, lethargy and depression as by products of a modern lifestyle.
Add to that the variables, I don't want to sound like I'm harping on but they are so very important. Add to that exposure in the womb, I wasn't and have no dental fluorosis, my son was and does have dental fluorosis and needed fillings in his baby teeth (he also had his first kidney stone at age 11 kidney stones is just one complaint on the rise in children). No proof that it is fluoride, no proof that it is not - do no harm! Add to that the use of this treated water on crops thereby increasing fluoride concentrations is foodstuffs but who eats what?
So yes it is confusing :confused: It's cumulative but the accumulation cn be so slow as to be ignored.
There are many complaints with the same vague symptoms, Hypothyroid, Fibromyalgia, Chronic stress......could fluoride actually be the underlying cause?
Personally I have to put depression in the major category - I do not know if fluoride is "the cause" "part of the cause" "nothing to do with it" but I do know that I object to my government adding a chemical that is recognized as hazardous and may be contributing into my water supply. Prior to the hazardous tag i.e. before fluoridation it was more simply labelled "toxic"
If the six countries that fluoridate over 50% of their water supply (yes only 6) continue to do so, while countries like India and China continue to run defluoridation programs continue to do so I'm sure some statistics will surface. Providing of course that international exchange of information continues - I have never in ten plus years of internet researching on any topic come across so many internal server errors or 404 page unavailable. I HATE that that sounds like a conspiracy theory statement but it is simply the truth!:eye-poppi
So I guess just do your own researching and draw your own conclusions. My personal conclusion I have already stated I'm going to distill.
Click to expand...

so, conjecture then? Call me skeptical...
 
Willowfrond said:
Almo sorry you are confused.
Weak Kitten therein lies the problem, the symptoms that can be attributed to systemic fluorosis are mainly those vague, gastro intestinal disturbances, metabolic disturbances, lethargy, depression, ... the major ones like "brittle bones" calcification of ligaments wont be seen until the person has been ingesting fluoride for many years and are largely put down to "aging".
Dental fluorosis is accepted as a somewhat unfortunate side effect of fluoridation.
Hip fracture is definitely on the rise but is seen as a consequence of having an increased life expectancy, gastro intestinal upsets and metabolic disturbances are dismissed as being a result of processed foods, lethargy and depression as by products of a modern lifestyle.
Add to that the variables, I don't want to sound like I'm harping on but they are so very important. Add to that exposure in the womb, I wasn't and have no dental fluorosis, my son was and does have dental fluorosis and needed fillings in his baby teeth (he also had his first kidney stone at age 11 kidney stones is just one complaint on the rise in children). No proof that it is fluoride, no proof that it is not - do no harm! Add to that the use of this treated water on crops thereby increasing fluoride concentrations is foodstuffs but who eats what?
So yes it is confusing :confused: It's cumulative but the accumulation cn be so slow as to be ignored.
There are many complaints with the same vague symptoms, Hypothyroid, Fibromyalgia, Chronic stress......could fluoride actually be the underlying cause?
Personally I have to put depression in the major category - I do not know if fluoride is "the cause" "part of the cause" "nothing to do with it" but I do know that I object to my government adding a chemical that is recognized as hazardous and may be contributing into my water supply. Prior to the hazardous tag i.e. before fluoridation it was more simply labelled "toxic"
If the six countries that fluoridate over 50% of their water supply (yes only 6) continue to do so, while countries like India and China continue to run defluoridation programs continue to do so I'm sure some statistics will surface. Providing of course that international exchange of information continues - I have never in ten plus years of internet researching on any topic come across so many internal server errors or 404 page unavailable. I HATE that that sounds like a conspiracy theory statement but it is simply the truth!:eye-poppi
So I guess just do your own researching and draw your own conclusions. My personal conclusion I have already stated I'm going to distill.
Click to expand...

Willow I'm just one of the many people who are going to tell you that fluoride, in correct concentrations, will do no harm and will do good as far as oral health is concerned.

I'm wondering, and don't feel insulted, but what was your kid's diet? To have caries at that age, to have kidney stones...it's not the water it's the entire diet of your kid or he may have something worse, but oh well.

Fluoridated water reduces caries and has shown to be an effective policy for all areas where it's been used. I do think however that people just aren't drinking or using common plumbing water, which can be a problem because the kids aren't drinking the damned treated water when they're sipping on acidic juices and sodas instead of just. plain. water. The reason most kids have caries before they lose their deciduous teeth (the baby teeth) is precisely because they aren't maintaining a proper pH of their mouth. When kids aren't drinking water and only drink sodas and juice (and we're going down all the way to Caprisuns and SunnyD's) and have poor dental hygiene, because let's face it kids suck at taking care of their mouths, they develop caries.

If you honestly think you're going to help yourself or your kids by removing fluoride, then you're not doing the rational thing. You've bought into a bogus idea, and it's not healthy for you. There is just so. much. evidence that fluoridated water inhibits caries formation that actively removing the treated water from your kids diet is, to me a prospective dentist, harmful and you should honestly try to take another good glance at the data.

Now, here's another shocker. If you take good care of your teeth, use fluoridated toothpaste and brush at proper times after a meal, drink mostly water and not sodas, do not eat many if any acidic fruits, then your oral hygiene will be great, even without fluoridated water. But it's unrealistic to ask for this with the current food availability; you can't even eat an orange without brushing afterwards with fluoridated toothpaste to maintain this kind of oral health.

Also, there's no evidence that I've read of the systemic pathology you've attributed fluoride to, including depression and brittle bones. While I do think diet and oral hygiene has a dramatic effect on your systemic health (heck, it's not that I think it, I know it) I have no evidence to believe fluoride contributes to these pathologies. Now that's a rational conclusion and it's extremely hard to make a link of fluoridation to hip fractures or depression because fluoride is so far removed from the pathological pathways that the conclusions are all but untenable and only "all but" because we can't say that just because we don't see a link, there is no link as a fact, only as strong evidence.
 
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