The Australian "custody sisters"

[smartcooky]

So the girls preventing the execution of a court order isn't a valid reason? And what do you think that the police should have done? Ignored the law because you don't like what they ultimately did?

A court order does justify the barbaric action taken by the Police. Sorry, but it just doesn't. There were better options available, many of which have been posted on this forum by others

Considering that they haven't even been back in Italy for a year I'd say that this is less likely than the girls being influenced by the unsavoury members of the mother's family.

You have no proof of that any members of the mother's family are "unsavoury", its only your opinion.

So leaving them with the mother and her family members who are manipulating the girls is a good idea?

You have no proof that the mother's family are manipulating the girls, only your opinion.

Because screw inconvenient things like the law right? For all we know the girls could look back on this later on in life and find that it was the best thing that ever happened to them.

1. The Law is not always right or just, the law is often an ass

2. You have no proof of that, only your opinion

This coming from Mr "daddy is sexually abusing his daughters".

And yet you're more than willing to pass judgement on the father and his family.

I might be wrong about the Father
You might be wrong about the mother
We have no proof, only our opinions

Ah yes the Chamberlains, another case whose public perception was influenced by biased reporting by the media.

Not to mention the corrupt rednecks among the Northern Territory Police, State Government and Prosecutors.

Prove it. If you know this for a certainty you should be able to provide evidence to back it up.

Of course I can't prove it, but all my experience as a former school teacher, tells me that treating children in such a brutal fashion is highly likely to induce trauma and will often leave long term psychological scars. That is a self-evident truth and an accepted fact.

Please be aware

I AM NOT SIDING WITH ONE PARENT OR THE OTHER

What I am saying is that the way this was handled by the authorities was barbaric and totally unnecessary. If any member of the public, a father for example, had dragged their children out in such a fashion, even if there was a court order in place, they would have been arrested by the Police and charged with common assault!

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

And yet you're more than willing to pass judgement on the father and his family.

How much do we know about them? Not much.

It's entirely possible, even likely, that these kids will make peace with their dad. They'd be foolish not to. He controls the resources that provide them with phones, computers, clothing, pocket money. And he is their parent. But I bet they'll never trust him or respect him.

 

[This is The End]

It also cannot be in their best interests to physically and forcibly remove them from their mother, against their obvious protestations.

Perhaps you missed post #568

This comment

They were told over and over again on several different occasions over several months to kick and scream, hit or bite, whatever they can do to get away from any mild force or any other measures that the AFP would be taking. That is why there were so many officers. It was widely known that they would put up a fight, even by authorities.

I am very very sorry to say that I was a part of that. I am ashamed and I have said sorry so many times to people involved. I owe a huge apology to the girls too. Laura was disappointed it didn't work. The girls were so disappointed too that they felt they let their mother down who was counting on them to act that out so they could stay. They even apologised to her because it didn't work. She had told the girls that if they did that, kick and scream, they would be not made to go back. That is why they were coached to do that.

Or was that debunked and I missed it?

 

[This is The End]

What I am saying is that the way this was handled by the authorities was barbaric and totally unnecessary. If any member of the public, a father for example, had dragged their children out in such a fashion, even if there was a court order in place, they would have been arrested by the Police and charged with common assault!

Could you be more specific about that?

Some parents have to drag their kids kicking and screaming to and from various places quite often. It is not illegal or abnormal.

 

[Shiner]

I could be wrong about the mother, but then, so could anyone else posting here. I could be wrong about the father, but then, so could anyone else posting here.

But there is one thing that I know I am right about.

There was absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for the Police to subject four innocent teenage and pre-teen children to the barbaric act of physically assaulting them and dragging them screaming away from their mother.

This situation was appallingly handled by the authorities, and the trauma inflicted on these girls was totally unnecessary. One or both of the parents may have been to blame for the situation but the Police alone are responsible for the brutal way they handled it.

Any half-decent hostage negotiator could have had those children out and on the plane quietly and without any fuss or bother given a few hours. There was no all-fired hurry to get them on the plane to Italy... the courts could simply have waited for them.

The girls were arrested. There was a warrant issued. The police had no choice. They'd (the girls) defied at least one court order previously.
If you want to point a finger, try the mother. She was ordered to put the girls on a flight (I think with their father) last May. They didn't turn up. They disappeared. This was during the same week that the girls had at least one supervised visit with their father. It's in the links here somewhere.

Our courts are far from perfect, but they are also far from allowing children to board international flights with their father if he's an abuser, after they've spent time assessing him and his interaction with his children.

If the father is to blame, we need to go back a couple of years to when he (rightly) inquired with lawyers about how to get his kids back. Once the ball was rolling, there was no stopping it. The mother lost the legal battle and sacrificed whatever innocence the girls had left for her own (potential) gain.

I must say, the mother and her family played this stupidly. Dumb, dumb and dumb.

 

[Shiner]

What I am saying is that the way this was handled by the authorities was barbaric and totally unnecessary. If any member of the public, a father for example, had dragged their children out in such a fashion, even if there was a court order in place, they would have been arrested by the Police and charged with common assault!

I disagree. The only real barbarity I saw, was from the girls. At the time, I thought it was way overacted. However, I took it at face value in regards to them not wanting to go back to Italy. I actually thought "spoilt little brats act that way". Not knowing they'd been coached "for months".

Speaking of face, notice the lack of rebuttal from the mothers family r.e,

They were told over and over again on several different occasions over several months to kick and scream, hit or bite, whatever they can do to get away from any mild force or any other measures that the AFP would be taking. That is why there were so many officers. It was widely known that they would put up a fight, even by authorities.

I am very very sorry to say that I was a part of that. I am ashamed and I have said sorry so many times to people involved. I owe a huge apology to the girls too. Laura was disappointed it didn't work. The girls were so disappointed too that they felt they let their mother down who was counting on them to act that out so they could stay. They even apologised to her because it didn't work. She had told the girls that if they did that, kick and scream, they would be not made to go back. That is why they were coached to do that.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Could you be more specific about that?

Some parents have to drag their kids kicking and screaming to and from various places quite often. It is not illegal or abnormal.

Who are you kidding? If it was normal it wouldn't have made the news.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, as I have said before, I would never allow that to happen to my girls, no matter how much I wanted them to be with me.

If the authorities knew that the girls were going to put up a fight, then I would expect the father to know too, and if so, then shame on him for allowing this barbarity to take place. It speaks volume about his character.

If it was me, I would have dropped the court case under these circumstances and found another way to resolve the issues.

The way their father manhandled them at his home in Florence also speaks to his character; my original assessment that he could be at worst, a child abuser, at best a bully, looks more likely to be on the mark than off it.

Sorry, but I have never bought into the belief that treating children like that is OK, and I never will. Perpetrating physical violence upon their children is the last resort of the incompetent parent.

I retract my earlier statement that the oldest girl might leave when she turns 16. Looks like she's now imprisoned behind a 2m wall and iron gates, so escape won't be easy.

 

[smartcooky]

Could you be more specific about that?

Some parents have to drag their kids kicking and screaming to and from various places quite often. It is not illegal or abnormal.

Sorry, I don't know what your Laws are, but in this country, if I grabbed my 14 year old daughter and dragged her the way the Police did, I WOULD be arrested if seen by a Policemen. If unseen, my daughter could go to the police and have me charged with assault.

In New Zealand, striking or using physical violence of any kind against your children is a criminal offence.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Who are you kidding? If it was normal it wouldn't have made the news.

The news event the mother staged and made sure the media was there made the news? What a surprise, clearly as a media genius for setting the whole thing up she is the best parent. Only the best parents subject their kids to manipulation to get them to act that way after all.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, as I have said before, I would never allow that to happen to my girls, no matter how much I wanted them to be with me.

Then you are clearly a less fit parent than the mother, who engineered the whole thing. She is willing to subject her kids to anything to keep them.

Sorry, but I have never bought into the belief that treating children like that is OK, and I never will. Perpetrating physical violence upon their children is the last resort of the incompetent parent.

Wait in setting this up is the mother an incompetent or genius parent?

 

[smartcooky]

Then you are clearly a less fit parent than the mother, who engineered the whole thing. She is willing to subject her kids to anything to keep them.


Wait in setting this up is the mother an incompetent or genius parent?

If their mother is acting like a complete arse, how does my acting like a complete prick help my kids?

If the mother's actions are damaging my kids, how does my acting violently towards them, help them?

 

[Caper]

Well, as I have said before, I would never allow that to happen to my girls, no matter how much I wanted them to be with me.

Really? You would let a couple of disgusting old war hogs partly raise your girls?............ that's great parenting. Actually it's terrible... can't believe you would let a disgusting old car thief raise your kids... terrible. That's child abuse.

 

[Wildy]

A court order does justify the barbaric action taken by the Police. Sorry, but it just doesn't. There were better options available, many of which have been posted on this forum by others

So if it were say, a violent criminal instead of girls in the middle of a custody dispute, you would be of the same opinion?

You have no proof of that any members of the mother's family are "unsavoury", its only your opinion.

Possibly, but then I'm drawing that conclusion from the available evidence. For example the statements of the great grandmother quoted below.

You have no proof that the mother's family are manipulating the girls, only your opinion.

From what the judge said in his ruling in October

I also had evidence that the mother put before me from an Italian speaking psychologist the children had seen at the mother’s instigation for a report to be prepared not long before they were interviewed by the Family Consultant. That report also proffered the factual observation that the three eldest children expressed views that they wanted to continue to live in Australia and to go back to Italy for holidays to visit their father and for him to visit them for holidays in Australia. Of note though, was that expert’s report that the youngest child had stated a preference for returning home to Italy to live because she liked the place where they lived in the Tuscan countryside and the activities she used to do with her father and friends. Quite remarkably, in my view, she did not repeat that same preference to the Family Consultant when interviewed only a few weeks later, after the mother had the report of the psychologist in her possession.

I do not trivialize threats of self-harm made by a 14 year old girl or a 9 year old girl. It is very troubling. But as the Family Consultant has said, the circumstances in which these girls have found themselves directly involved in the efforts of their mother, and other members of the mother’s extended family, to keep them in Australia, notwithstanding the decisions of the Court, have had a significant emotional impact upon the children. The very public nature of the campaign has been very disturbing. I am satisfied that they have definitely not been shielded from the dispute and have clearly, I find, been significantly influenced in their views and their conduct by their mother and other members of her family. Examples of extremely inappropriate and sometimes bizarre things said to and in the presence of the children can be found in statements made by the maternal great-grandmother that were recorded by police in the immediate aftermath of the children being found after being hidden by her. Unashamedly, she was recorded saying to one of the children “How exciting. Who’s going to play you in the movie? They will have to find a good little dark-haired actress to play you when they make the movie.” She also said to the police, in the presence of the children, “everyone is on their side except their father .......He doesn’t love them. He just owns them. They’re chattels.” She then went on to say “... because he is a liar – please tell me you’re not Italian – because he is a liar, and all Italians are bloody liars...”.

The fact that the youngest child could go from stating in May last year that she wanted to go home to Italy to her home in the Tuscan countryside to now asserting that “Italy’s a scary place. I don’t feel comfortable” and writing that she would stab herself if she was sent back to Italy, when she has not been back to Italy in the meantime, causes me to conclude that she has probably been subjected to considerable influence by persons close to her. That could have been her mother, or her older sisters, or other members of her extended maternal family. It does not really matter who. Having regard to the sorts of things the maternal great-grandmother was saying to and in the presence of the children, even in the company of police, I am satisfied that little restraint in respect of these matters is likely to have been demonstrated around these children and that this has impacted upon them in significant ways.

Clearly Justice Forrest must also have had no proof in order to come to a similar conclusion.

1. The Law is not always right or just, the law is often an ass

2. You have no proof of that, only your opinion

You're little mantra is finally correct. Although I was expressing an opinion there, so well done you.

I might be wrong about the Father
You might be wrong about the mother
We have no proof, only our opinions

Well considering the comments the mother has flat out stated that the father didn't sexually abuse the kids I'd say that you are wrong about the father.

Of course I can't prove it, but all my experience as a former school teacher, tells me that treating children in such a brutal fashion is highly likely to induce trauma and will often leave long term psychological scars. That is a self-evident truth and an accepted fact.

This is contradictory. If it's a "self-evident" truth then you should be able to back it up with some evidence. The fact that you can't means that it's not "self-evident", or an "accepted fact".

And don't get me started on the argument from authority you've got there as well...

Please be aware

I AM NOT SIDING WITH ONE PARENT OR THE OTHER

It sure doesn't seem that way.

What I am saying is that the way this was handled by the authorities was barbaric and totally unnecessary. If any member of the public, a father for example, had dragged their children out in such a fashion, even if there was a court order in place, they would have been arrested by the Police and charged with common assault!

Because the other options were so much better huh? Maybe they could have had a stand-off that ended with a SERT team breaching the house and bringing the kids out at gunpoint, that would have looked even better for the cameras.

Fact of the matter is that the mother's family tipped off the media who made sure that they would be there to capture whatever happened, and the girls certainly delivered some news.

Who are you kidding? If it was normal it
wouldn't have made the news.

It would have, because the media were following the story before they were removed, but it wouldn't have been as prominent in the news bulletin if it were shown at all.

The news event the mother staged and made sure the media was there made the news? What a surprise, clearly as a media genius for setting the whole thing up she is the best parent. Only the best parents subject their kids to manipulation to get them to act that way after all.

Ponderingturtle, the mother isn't manipulative at all, that's just your opinion...

 

[ehcks]

Well, as I have said before, I would never allow that to happen to my girls, no matter how much I wanted them to be with me.

If the authorities knew that the girls were going to put up a fight, then I would expect the father to know too, and if so, then shame on him for allowing this barbarity to take place. It speaks volume about his character.

If it was me, I would have dropped the court case under these circumstances and found another way to resolve the issues.

So if your kids got kidnapped by a complete stranger, and by the time you found them, they had been turned against you and didn't want to go back, you'd just drop charges and leave them be?

Because there really aren't any other ways to resolve that than going to court and involving the police.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If their mother is acting like a complete arse, how does my acting like a complete prick help my kids?

If the mother's actions are damaging my kids, how does my acting violently towards them, help them?

By getting them into a more healthy situation you help them.

 

[WildCat]

By getting them into a more healthy situation you help them.

But they screamed and kicked at the airport! And as everyone knows any kid who throws a temper tantrum is scarred for life.

 

[Caper]

But they screamed and kicked at the airport! And as everyone knows any kid who throws a temper tantrum is scarred for life.

This.

To hear some of the posters on here, they were all basically gang raped by the police.

I see toddlers freak out like that all the time.

 

[tyr_13]

The girls were arrested. There was a warrant issued. The police had no choice. They'd (the girls) defied at least one court order previously.
If you want to point a finger, try the mother. She was ordered to put the girls on a flight (I think with their father) last May. They didn't turn up. They disappeared. This was during the same week that the girls had at least one supervised visit with their father. It's in the links here somewhere.

Our courts are far from perfect, but they are also far from allowing children to board international flights with their father if he's an abuser, after they've spent time assessing him and his interaction with his children.

If the father is to blame, we need to go back a couple of years to when he (rightly) inquired with lawyers about how to get his kids back. Once the ball was rolling, there was no stopping it. The mother lost the legal battle and sacrificed whatever innocence the girls had left for her own (potential) gain.

I must say, the mother and her family played this stupidly. Dumb, dumb and dumb.

I thought that when he came to see them is when they disappeared, but I'm probably wrong about that.

 

[Dr. Keith]

But they screamed and kicked at the airport! And as everyone knows any kid who throws a temper tantrum is scarred for life.

And if you ignore all the court's findings about how awful the mother and her family are, but assume the father is a serial rapist who deals in child sex slaves, you can see why they would react like that.