The Australian "custody sisters"

[Shiner]

This article states that they were taken out of foster care and returned to the mother but is unclear when they went into the foster system. I believe it was after she had hidden them after the first time the court ruled that they return to tialy

Correct.

Under the terms of the return order, the children, aged between nine and 15, were due to fly back to Italy in May. They refused to go and their family went public with their story.
In an attempt to avoid the return order, the children went on the run with their maternal great-grandmother.
They were found soon after and placed into foster care until worries for their emotional well-being saw them returned to the temporary custody of their Sunshine Coast mother.
Since then, there has been a High Court challenge (essentially arguing minors were entitled to their own, separate legal representation in custody issues), which was rejected on the first day of the hearing, several adjournments and appeals.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ck-to-italy-20121003-26z60.html#ixzz2MSAh5Hy6

 

[Shiner]

Pretty dodgy fathers rights website you linked to.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. It's a link that's been used throughout this thread. Gives a good overview of the story, and doesn't try to hide it's bias.

Try the Brisbane Times court reporting and the judges findings. Or you could just keep stirring the pot....

 

[lionking]

Try the Brisbane Times court reporting and the judges findings. Or you could just keep stirring the pot....

Having an alternative opinion is not stirring the pot in my view, but whatever.....

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. It's a link that's been used throughout this thread. Gives a good overview of the story, and doesn't try to hide it's bias.

No, it certainly does not try to hide its bias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

 

[Shiner]

No, it certainly does not try to hide its bias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

Funny. That's about the size of it.

I don't think it's relevant in the context of my use of the quote from the article.

Maybe next time I'll find another source and save myself the trouble.

 

[Shiner]

Having an alternative opinion is not stirring the pot in my view, but whatever.....

The position you're arguing;( that it may? have been in the childrens best interests to be left with their mother until custody can be settled ) can only be argued seriously if you completely ignore Australian, Italian, and international law.

Sounds like stirring to me, but whatever.......

"In the child's best interest" is what has happened. They have returned to Italy where any custody dispute needs to be settled.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think there's any real question but that the father has the law on his side. But I still think it would have been in everyone's best interest to leave the police out of it and continue to negotiate, coaxing the children if possible but allowing them the final recourse of refusing to get on that plane.

It seems to me this father is a glutton for punishment. Four girls between 9-14 who don't want to be there? I would have gladly sent a monthly check to the other hemisphere, gone there on vacations, shown the kids a good time, and then handed them back over to mom. And I think this mom is devoted to her kids, whatever character flaws she has.

If I were in a situation where I had four daughters of that age group who had made it abundantly clear that they didn't want to live with me, then I would simply have let them go live with their mother if that is what they wanted.

Actually, unless there are issues of the daughters being in some kind of physical danger with their mother, I question the motives of ANY father who would want to force his teenage daughters to live with him against their will.

 

[Shiner]

If I were in a situation where I had four daughters of that age group who had made it abundantly clear that they didn't want to live with me, then I would simply have let them go live with their mother if that is what they wanted.

Actually, unless there are issues of the daughters being in some kind of physical danger with their mother, I question the motives of ANY father who would want to force his teenage daughters to live with him against their will.

Touche'. Can't argue that.......but, 'what if?'

..... it was known to you that the children were being deliberately turned against you?
(hypothetically of course)

 

[smartcooky]

Touche'. Can't argue that.......but, 'what if?'

..... it was known to you that the children were being deliberately turned against you?
(hypothetically of course)

Well that makes it harder of course, but one thing is for sure. I am not going to force them to live with me if they don't want to, because that will only serve to reinforce whatever their mother is telling them about me, making her appear righteous in the eyes of the children, and giving her the ammunition she needs.

I simply would not play that game; where the children become powerless pawns in a battle between their mother and me.

 

[Caper]

Touche'. Can't argue that.......but, 'what if?'

..... it was known to you that the children were being deliberately turned against you?
(hypothetically of course)

Yes... And let's also add that, two grotesque older pigs... One an auto thief....were to have influence in your daughters development?

 

[Caper]

Well that makes it harder of course, but one thing is for sure. I am not going to force them to live with me if they don't want to, because that will only serve to reinforce whatever their mother is telling them about me, making her appear righteous in the eyes of the children, and giving her the ammunition she needs.

I simply would not play that game; where the children become powerless pawns in a battle between their mother and me.

All you need is time. Their still kids, you can change them into Nazis if you wanted too.

 

[smartcooky]

All you need is time. Their still kids, you can change them into Nazis if you wanted too.

Well I see it this way.

1. You can allow the kids to live with their mother
- It risks the possibility that she might turn them away from you.
- It risks the possibility that some or all of them might suffer some traumatic experience in the future

2. You can have them dragged kicking and screaming away from their mother
- This will guarantee that they turn against you and hate you!
- This will ensure for certain that they suffer that psychologically traumatic experience, now.

At least with choice 1, you have a chance for things to be made right for them. If you take choice 2, you have put yourself in a difficult (IMO impossible) position and cast yourself in the role of the villain in their eyes, confirming exactly what their mother has been saying about you.

The effect of that will be exceedingly difficult to overcome. Even a first year psychology student will tell you that a realisation that comes about as a result of a traumatic experience has a greater tendency to have a lasting effect - you remember your unpleasant lessons better!

With the 14 year old, the father won't have a have lot of time. Under Italian Law, at 16 she is entitled to leave home, and I'll bet she does.

 

[katy_did]

If I were in a situation where I had four daughters of that age group who had made it abundantly clear that they didn't want to live with me, then I would simply have let them go live with their mother if that is what they wanted.

Actually, unless there are issues of the daughters being in some kind of physical danger with their mother, I question the motives of ANY father who would want to force his teenage daughters to live with him against their will.

The father isn't 'forcing' his children to live with him. They've been returned to Italy so the appropriate court can make a decision on who they should live with; for all we know the court may decide it should be their mother in Australia. The only reason the kids are living with their father at the moment is that their mother didn't return to Italy with them to resume the shared custody agreement.

It can't be in the children's best interests to be systematically alienated from their father and his family (the Italian grandmother has also said that up until a year ago she had good contact with the girls, but that they subsequently refused to speak to her). We could also "question the motives" of a father who would willingly leave his children in a situation where he suspected that was happening. It may not be what you would have chosen to do, but I can't see that the father's actions here are unreasonable.

 

[Caper]

Well I see it this way.

1. You can allow the kids to live with their mother
- It risks the possibility that she might turn them away from you.
- It risks the possibility that some or all of them might suffer some traumatic experience in the future

2. You can have them dragged kicking and screaming away from their mother
- This will guarantee that they turn against you and hate you!
- This will ensure for certain that they suffer that psychologically traumatic experience, now.

At least with choice 1, you have a chance for things to be made right for them. If you take choice 2, you have put yourself in a difficult (IMO impossible) position and cast yourself in the role of the villain in their eyes, confirming exactly what their mother has been saying about you.

The effect of that will be exceedingly difficult to overcome. Even a first year psychology student will tell you that a realisation that comes about as a result of a traumatic experience has a greater tendency to have a lasting effect - you remember your unpleasant lessons better!

With the 14 year old, the father won't have a have lot of time. Under Italian Law, at 16 she is entitled to leave home, and I'll bet she does.

I bet she doesn't. Also, I completely don't by your premise.

Under option one you leave them with their mother and grandmother and great grandmother.... and you risk the girls growing up into miserable hogs, like their grandmother or great grandmother..

Do you think it's a good thing to raise girls to be miserable hogs? I don't.

Also.... if they don't grow up to be miserable hogs... do you think it will be healthy for them to find out they were lied to by their mother and denied a relationship with their father? I quoted a girl earlier who told a similar story of how she was traumatized by her mothers lies about her father.... and felt terrible how she treated him.

 

[tyr_13]

Providing children the best opportunities in life doesn't always mean they'll like you while you do.

 

[smartcooky]

The father isn't 'forcing' his children to live with him.

If having the police drag them screaming away from their mother isn't forcing them, then what is?

It can't be in the children's best interests to be systematically alienated from their father and his family

It also cannot be in their best interests to physically and forcibly remove them from their mother, against their obvious protestations.

The Australian Police treated them the same way they treat criminals when they resist arrest. NOTHING justifies the way that these young girls were physically assaulted by the Police.

the Italian grandmother has also said that up until a year ago she had good contact with the girls, but that they subsequently refused to speak to her

And I wonder why that is. Perhaps something happened in Italy that we don't know about.

We could also "question the motives" of a father who would willingly leave his children in a situation where he suspected that was happening. It may not be what you would have chosen to do, but I can't see that the father's actions here are unreasonable.

Leaving them with the mother while the issues are dealt with is a far better option than physically dragging them away when it is clear that they do not want to return to their father.

Providing children the best opportunities in life doesn't always mean they'll like you while you do.

Sanctimonious claptrap. We aren't talking about making them do their homework or assigning them chores. It is about where they live.

Personally, no matter how I felt about my children, or how much I loved them, I would rather they be happy living with their mother, than miserable living with me, and hating me because I forced them to do so.

Under option one you leave them with their mother and grandmother and great grandmother.... and you risk the girls growing up into miserable hogs, like their grandmother or great grandmother.

Do you think it's a good thing to raise girls to be miserable hogs? I don't.[/quote]


You are substituting your personal judgement for facts.

I don't judge people by their appearance or how they appear to act in a stressful situation. If you wan't to see a great example of what can happen when the public judge people because they don't act according to the way people expect, look no further that the disgraceful way the Australian courts and public treated Lindy & Michael Chamberlain.

Also.... if they don't grow up to be miserable hogs... do you think it will be healthy for them to find out they were lied to by their mother and denied a relationship with their father? I quoted a girl earlier who told a similar story of how she was traumatized by her mothers lies about her father.... and felt terrible how she treated him.

Notwithstanding your biased personal judgement of the mother, I will admit there is a possibility of that happening, but I'll take the possibility over the certainty any day, and the certainty is that physically assaulting young teenagers by dragging them away from their mother will have a lasting traumatic effect that will live long in their memories, and for which the father will probably never be forgiven.

 

[tyr_13]

Sanctimonious claptrap. We aren't talking about making them do their homework or assigning them chores. It is about where they live.

Right, something much more important than doing homework. Seriously, have you even considered that you're wrong? That's not a defense of your argument at all.

Personally, no matter how I felt about my children, or how much I loved them, I would rather they be happy living with their mother, than miserable living with me, and hating me because I forced them to do so.

False dichotomy and knowing what they couldn't possibly know.

 

[smartcooky]

Seriously, have you even considered that you're wrong?

I could be wrong about the mother, but then, so could anyone else posting here. I could be wrong about the father, but then, so could anyone else posting here.

But there is one thing that I know I am right about.

There was absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for the Police to subject four innocent teenage and pre-teen children to the barbaric act of physically assaulting them and dragging them screaming away from their mother.

This situation was appallingly handled by the authorities, and the trauma inflicted on these girls was totally unnecessary. One or both of the parents may have been to blame for the situation but the Police alone are responsible for the brutal way they handled it.

Any half-decent hostage negotiator could have had those children out and on the plane quietly and without any fuss or bother given a few hours. There was no all-fired hurry to get them on the plane to Italy... the courts could simply have waited for them.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I could be wrong about the mother, but then, so could anyone else posting here. I could be wrong about the father, but then, so could anyone else posting here.

But there is one thing that I know I am right about.

There was absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for the Police to subject four innocent teenage and pre-teen children to the barbaric act of physically assaulting them and dragging them screaming away from their mother.

This situation was appallingly handled by the authorities, and the trauma inflicted on these girls was totally unnecessary. One or both of the parents may have been to blame for the situation but the Police alone are responsible for the brutal way they handled it.

Any half-decent hostage negotiator could have had those children out and on the plane quietly and without any fuss or bother given a few hours. There was no all-fired hurry to get them on the plane to Italy... the courts could simply have waited for them.

No good justification at least. What was it that an officer said at to one of the kids? "You are under arrest"? It was something like that and it sounded odd.

 

[Wildy]

The Australian Police treated them the same way they treat criminals when they resist arrest. NOTHING justifies the way that these young girls were physically assaulted by the Police.

So the girls preventing the execution of a court order isn't a valid reason? And what do you think that the police should have done? Ignored the law because you don't like what they ultimately did?

And I wonder why that is. Perhaps something happened in Italy that we don't know about.

Considering that they haven't even been back in Italy for a year I'd say that this is less likely than the girls being influenced by the unsavoury members of the mother's family.

Leaving them with the mother while the issues are dealt with is a far better option than physically dragging them away when it is clear that they do not want to return to their father.

So leaving them with the mother and her family members who are manipulating the girls is a good idea?

Sanctimonious claptrap. We aren't talking about making them do their homework or assigning them chores. It is about where they live.

Because that doesn't fall under the "what's best for them" category.

Personally, no matter how I felt about my children, or how much I loved them, I would rather they be happy living with their mother, than miserable living with me, and hating me because I forced them to do so.

Because screw inconvenient things like the law right? For all we know the girls could look back on this later on in life and find that it was the best thing that ever happened to them.

You are substituting your personal judgement for facts.

This coming from Mr "daddy is sexually abusing his daughters".

I don't judge people by their appearance or how they appear to act in a stressful situation.

And yet you're more than willing to pass judgement on the father and his family.

If you wan't to see a great example of what can happen when the public judge people because they don't act according to the way people expect, look no further that the disgraceful way the Australian courts and public treated Lindy & Michael Chamberlain.

Ah yes the Chamberlains, another case whose public perception was influenced by biased reporting by the media.

Notwithstanding your biased personal judgement of the mother, I will admit there is a possibility of that happening, but I'll take the possibility over the certainty any day, and the certainty is that physically assaulting young teenagers by dragging them away from their mother will have a lasting traumatic effect that will live long in their memories, and for which the father will probably never be forgiven.

Prove it. If you know this for a certainty you should be able to provide evidence to back it up.