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The Australian "custody sisters"

lionking said:
You simply have to be kidding. You are saying this with such certainty that you must have some evidence. Please provide such evidence that they know their father loves them more than the mother (and don't use weasel out of this by saying "I didn't say that". Your meaning is crystal clear).
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It isn't about greater or lesser love. It is about drama and needyness.
 
DreamingNaiad said:
You said force was used to separate them from their father. It's possible deception was used but when was force used?
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...you need to understand the multiple meaning of the words "force." The girls were underaged living in another country without the ability to return to their father despite at least one of the girls stating she wanted to go home. There is no evidence that the girls had any options here: the decision to move countries and to have no contact with their father was a decision that was forced on them.
 
banquetbear said:
...you need to understand the multiple meaning of the words "force." The girls were underaged living in another country without the ability to return to their father despite at least one of the girls stating she wanted to go home. There is no evidence that the girls had any options here: the decision to move countries and to have no contact with their father was a decision that was forced on them.
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Yet another assertion devoid of evidence. Show how this decision was forced on them.

Hatred of the mother by people participating in this thread has led to amazing flights of fantasy.
 
lionking said:
Yet another assertion devoid of evidence. Show how this decision was forced on them.

Hatred of the mother by people participating in this thread has led to amazing flights of fantasy.
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...where have I shown hatred of the mother? The answer is I haven't. In fact I've got sympathy for the mother: especially after having watched the 60 minutes documentary and seeing the way the grandmother acted.

I'm not showing any flights of fancy. I'm not claiming the girls were dragged kicking and screaming from Italy. As has been quoted several times:

The fact that the youngest child could go from stating in May last year that she wanted to go home to Italy to her home in the Tuscan countryside to now asserting that “Italy’s a scary place. I don’t feel comfortable” and writing that she would stab herself if she was sent back to Italy, when she has not been back to Italy in the meantime, causes me to conclude that she has probably been subjected to considerable influence by persons close to her.
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The youngest wanted to return home. She couldn't because of the circumstances of her removal from Italy. This wasn't her choice. If she had had a choice it would have been to go home. From your words in this thread I'm surprised you didn't support her wishes to return to Italy.

The girls were forced by their mum to not return home despite the desire of some of them to do so. This is entirely supported by the weight of the evidence. At some stage after wishing to go home the youngest girl's attitude changed completely. She started writing she would stab herself before returning to Italy. Something happened to change her attitude and it wasn't the actions of the father.
 
ponderingturtle said:
It isn't about greater or lesser love. It is about drama and needyness.
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Thank you ponderingturtle, this is it exactly. It's not a question of which parent loves the children more, it's the level of confidence that they have in that parent's love.

"I love you if you throw a fit in front of the cameras for me" vs. "I love you regardless of how you feel about me at the moment"

One of these is parental love, the other is a bit crazy. I'm surprise that lionking is unable to distinguish the difference after allegedly raising children of his own. What I suspect is that he is more of a product of his time than he realizes. A time when men were largely excluded from parenting. Times have changed.
 
joesixpack said:
Thank you ponderingturtle, this is it exactly. It's not a question of which parent loves the children more, it's the level of confidence that they have in that parent's love.

"I love you if you throw a fit in front of the cameras for me" vs. "I love you regardless of how you feel about me at the moment"

One of these is parental love, the other is a bit crazy. I'm surprise that lionking is unable to distinguish the difference after allegedly raising children of his own. What I suspect is that he is more of a product of his time than he realizes. A time when men were largely excluded from parenting. Times have changed.
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They might not think their mothers love is contingent on their presence but her well being. "I love you so much I will be lost with out you here".
 
banquetbear said:
The youngest wanted to return home. She couldn't because of the circumstances of her removal from Italy. This wasn't her choice. If she had had a choice it would have been to go home. From your words in this thread I'm surprised you didn't support her wishes to return to Italy.
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Well, she hadn't yet been taught that you have to throw a fit in front of TV cameras if you really want something, so that may have something to do with it.
 
My $0.02,

I don't think it's been established that the girls tantrums before, during and after boarding the plane, were due to "fear of their father". Really? That's hyperbole at best.

What is clear, is that they were convinced (by their mother) that returning to Italy would mean not seeing their mother for an indefinite period. (forever in the minds of children)

The analogy between this case and random child abduction is ridiculous. The father gave permission for his children to leave the country of their birth. He says this in the 60 Minutes interview. (and other interviews)

"The best interests of the child" can only be addressed in the country of their legal residence as determined by the custody agreement. The Hague convention has to be actioned before any other proceedings. The "exceptional circumstances" clause was deemed not applicable in this case.
IMO, (regardless of the traumatic circumstances) the best interests of these children have been met to the letter of the law.

The judges report is quite explicit in it's description of the mothers manipulation of the children and the legal system. I can't see how it would have been "in the best interest of the children" to be left in that environment.


Oh, fwiw, you only see/hear what 60 minutes wants you to see.........

*I can't see how they could've portrayed the grandmother in a good way though*
 
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Shiner said:
My $0.02,

I don't think it's been established that the girls tantrums before, during and after boarding the plane, were due to "fear of their father". Really? That's hyperbole at best.

What is clear, is that they were convinced (by their mother) that returning to Italy would mean not seeing their mother for an indefinite period. (forever in the minds of children)

The analogy between this case and random child abduction is ridiculous. The father gave permission for his children to leave the country of their birth. He says this in the 60 Minutes interview. (and other interviews)

"The best interests of the child" can only be addressed in the country of their legal residence as determined by the custody agreement. The Hague convention has to be actioned before any other proceedings. The "exceptional circumstances" clause was deemed not applicable in this case.
IMO, (regardless of the traumatic circumstances) the best interests of these children have been met to the letter of the law.

The judges report is quite explicit in it's description of the mothers manipulation of the children and the legal system. I can't see how it would have been "in the best interest of the children" to be left in that environment.
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I don't think there's any real question but that the father has the law on his side. But I still think it would have been in everyone's best interest to leave the police out of it and continue to negotiate, coaxing the children if possible but allowing them the final recourse of refusing to get on that plane.

It seems to me this father is a glutton for punishment. Four girls between 9-14 who don't want to be there? I would have gladly sent a monthly check to the other hemisphere, gone there on vacations, shown the kids a good time, and then handed them back over to mom. And I think this mom is devoted to her kids, whatever character flaws she has.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I don't think there's any real question but that the father has the law on his side. But I still think it would have been in everyone's best interest to leave the police out of it and continue to negotiate, coaxing the children if possible but allowing them the final recourse of refusing to get on that plane.
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How would there be any negotiation at all without police involvement? You think psycho mom was going to answer dad's phone calls, letters, emails, etc??
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I don't think there's any real question but that the father has the law on his side. But I still think it would have been in everyone's best interest to leave the police out of it and continue to negotiate, coaxing the children if possible but allowing them the final recourse of refusing to get on that plane.

It seems to me this father is a glutton for punishment. Four girls between 9-14 who don't want to be there? I would have gladly sent a monthly check to the other hemisphere, gone there on vacations, shown the kids a good time, and then handed them back over to mom. And I think this mom is devoted to her kids, whatever character flaws she has.
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She wouldn't let him see them when he went there. Why are you throwing out speculations that run exactly contrary to what actually happened? The entire reason for involving the police is that they couldn't work things out without them, and it seems entirely on the mother that that was the case.
 
tyr_13 said:
She wouldn't let him see them when he went there. Why are you throwing out speculations that run exactly contrary to what actually happened? The entire reason for involving the police is that they couldn't work things out without them, and it seems entirely on the mother that that was the case.
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This^^

The opportunity to do it peacefully was ignored.

Back in May, a court ordered the children to be placed on a plane at Brisbane Airport and flown to Italy. They didn’t show up. In fact, the mother, working in concert with her various female relatives, had hidden them and taken their cell phones so they could neither contact anyone nor be contacted. Incredibly, the mother claimed to the court that she had no idea where the girls were or, when they were found, who had secreted them away. For having violated a court order and then flagrantly lied to the court, she was rewarded with custody. The kids were unhappy in foster care and so a judge returned them to their mother whose most noteworthy feature to date had been her frank willingness to violate the law.

http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/10/04/italian-dads-daughters-ordered-back-to-italy/
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