Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[r-j]

I clearly stated what I think.

When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it.

Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game. In regards to autism, clearly there is a cause, and the foggy mysterious "nobody knows" conversations are the hallmarks of ignorance, not science.

GWS is a fine example of how simple minded some people are in these matters. You have this new malady that strikes a limited population, a healthy population, and then you hear from the authorities it isn't real. Then when it can't be denied, it becomes a mystery.

Exactly like autism.

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism

Originally Posted by crhkrebs
Well, we are well past 4,000 posts now.
Has Clayton ever come up with his "evidence" that the MMR vaccine causes autism?

Quite often.

You keep on saying this without actually supporting it so I will see how long it is before you actually support it with real evidence other than your rumor about anecdotes from parents !

Clayton Moore, please cite the valid scientific studies showing the links between the MMR vaccine and autism.
Remember that a valid answer is that there are none.

First asked 4 March 2013 (0 days and counting)

Actually since you wrote this on 31st May 2011

Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.

I should really have: 643 days and counting !

P.S. In case your question has not been answered - there are many such studies. For example, from 2002: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism studied 537,303 Danish children.

Of the 537,303 children in the cohort (representing 2,129,864 person-years), 440,655 (82.0 percent) had received the MMR vaccine. We identified 316 children with a diagnosis of autistic disorder and 422 with a diagnosis of other autistic-spectrum disorders. After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder

Or in plainer English, in Time on Nov. 18, 2002
Do Vaccines Cause Autism?

The Danish findings, which were published in the New England Journal of Medicine last week, are persuasive for several reasons. Denmark's socialized medical system has generated one of the most complete health records of any country. So the investigators were able to document accurately both sides of the equation: those who were (or were not) vaccinated and those who developed autism. Even when other factors, such as age at vaccination, were taken into account, there was no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There was no clustering of autism diagnoses in the weeks and months after vaccination. There was no difference in the number of diagnoses of other developmental disorders related to autism in the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.

 

[dafydd]

You keep on saying this without actually supporting it so I will see how long it is before you actually support it with real evidence other than your rumor about anecdotes from parents !

Clayton Moore, please cite the valid scientific studies showing the links between the MMR vaccine and autism.
Remember that a valid answer is that there are none.

First asked 4 March 2013 (0 days and counting)

Actually since you wrote this on 31st May 2011

I should really have: 643 days and counting !

P.S. In case your question has not been answered - there are many such studies. For example, from 2002: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism studied 537,303 Danish children.


Or in plainer English, in Time on Nov. 18, 2002
Do Vaccines Cause Autism?

You are wasting your time. Clayton ignores all real information about this subject and only believes wacko websites and YooToob videos.

 

[Reality Check]

You should read up on the we can't figure out what caused the GWS.

Clayton Moore.
You should read up on the topic of this thread and that it has nothing to do with your derail of "we can't figure out what caused the GWS". This makes it look like you are unable to tell the difference between autism and GWS.

The next derail about anthrax is even more ridiculous!

 

[jdc324]

I clearly stated what I think.

When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it.

Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game. In regards to autism, clearly there is a cause, and the foggy mysterious "nobody knows" conversations are the hallmarks of ignorance, not science.

GWS is a fine example of how simple minded some people are in these matters. You have this new malady that strikes a limited population, a healthy population, and then you hear from the authorities it isn't real. Then when it can't be denied, it becomes a mystery.

Exactly like autism.

I beg to differ. It's not very clear which bits of your posts contain your views and which contain positions you ascribe to others. Nor is it clear what your actual views are. Let alone how you came to them. I'll assume my earlier efforts at working out what your arguments are were pretty much on the mark. That being the case, I can now say: you're talking nonsense. The position you ascribe to others (that nothing bad could even happen, in regards to vaccines) is a straw man rather than the position that posters you disagree with actually hold. Your claim that the purported link between anthrax vaccines and GWS was simply hand-waved away is ludicrous. It was, in fact, carefully researched and found not to have any basis in reality.

 

[r-j]

Don't attribute things that I did not say. That is dirty pool and makes you look ignorant. Just quote what you disagree with. Don't make things up. It's against the rules.

 

[Dcdrac]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/03/us-doctors-cure-child-born-hiv

"US doctors cure child born with HIV"

"Doctors in the US have made medical history by effectively curing a child born with HIV, the first time such a case has been documented.

The infant, who is now two and a half, needs no medication for HIV, has a normal life expectancy and is highly unlikely to be infectious to others, doctors believe.

Though medical staff and scientists are unclear why the treatment was effective, the surprise success has raised hopes that the therapy might ultimately help doctors eradicate the virus among newborns.

Doctors did not release the name or sex of the child to protect the patient's identity, but said the infant was born, and lived, in Mississippi state. Details of the case were unveiled on Sunday at the Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections in Atlanta.

 

[r-j]

Autism, which the thread clearly is obsessed over, is a very contentious issue. Even the number of cases is foggy and unclear.

Has it increased a lot of late?

Was it as new condition or has it always been around?

What is the medical test to confirm it?

What brain changes are observed during the decline? The cases where children lose the abilities they had?

What causes the seizures?

Why can't anyone state the real rate? If the rate is increasing it's a serious problem, and obviously has a human cause to it.

Are there populations with little or no autism?

Why is it all such a huge mystery?

 

[Matthew Cline]

The conspiracy is the absolute insistence that it is a mystery. Like some new virus or bacteria just pops up like magic, for the first time in human history.

Hmmmm, so HIV and the lyme's disease bacteria were created by humans? What else?

When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it.

Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game.

So what's the maximum amount of time that it should take of scientists to figure something out? That it, at what point has some much time passed that "scientists are still genuinely trying to figure it out" cease to be possible?

 

[Dcdrac]

RJ this describes Autism

http://www.autism.org.uk/About-auti...-syndrome-an-introduction/What-is-autism.aspx

 

[jdc324]

Don't attribute things that I did not say. That is dirty pool and makes you look ignorant. Just quote what you disagree with. Don't make things up. It's against the rules.

I asked you for clarification, you said none was needed. I posted what I thought were your positions and you did not correct me.

If I have attributed things to you that you did not intend to convey I'd suggest that you take your share of responsibility for that.

By the way, if you're against making things up, I'm sure you'd now like to retract those things you posted earlier. You know - the bits where you made things up.

 

[Reality Check]

It's obvious, ...

What is obvuous, r-j?
What is obvious to me is that this is a thread about autism. I hope that it is obvious to you as well !
What is obvious to me is that Clayton Moore has been avoiding (for almost 2 years now) the fact that there is no valid evidence linking the MMR vaccine to autism. I hope that it is obvious to you that there is no scientific link !

As for this anthrax stuff - it has been covered before in this thread. Clayton Moore's link is obviously, doubly bad. It is to an anti-vax site that misrepresents the source and displays its paranoia about vaccines (wow - the anthrax vaccine has adverse effects !). As an example of the ignorance of the poeple writing threre - they do not think that any "official" vaccinated vs Unvaccinated studies have been done for autism! As I cited before from 2002: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism studied 537,303 Danish children.
The source is the Washington Post dated October 29, 2011 (Federal advisers endorse testing anthrax vaccine in children). The article is about passing the ethical questions about the issue to another panel over a year ago.

 

[Chris Haynes]

..

Was it as new condition or has it always been around?

It has always been around. See Not Even Wrong and Unstrange Minds.

What causes the seizures?

Here is one reason out of many:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dravet_syndrome/dravet_syndrome.htm

Why is it all such a huge mystery?

Because the human brain is very complicated. The more complicated the brain, the more things that can go wrong.

 

[Arisia]

Cancer has been around for quite a while, and we still haven't figured out how to cure it, only treat it, force it into remission. And some forms still have us completely beaten.

And of course this thread is obsessed with Autism, it's in the thread title.

 

[Estellea]

Autism, which the thread clearly is obsessed over, is a very contentious issue. Even the number of cases is foggy and unclear.

Has it increased a lot of late?

The prevalence of ASDs has increased considerably in the last twenty years. Most cases have been "higher-functioning", some have been the result of diagnostic substitution, i.e. mental retardation diagnoses have declined during the same time and some DSM diagnoses have been eliminated.

Was it as new condition or has it always been around?

Always been around.

What is the medical test to confirm it?

Given that it's a neurological disorder, it's a psychiatric diagnosis for the most part excepting those of genetic (fragile X, tuberous sclerosis, Rett syndrome) or infectious origins (congenital rubella syndrome)

What brain changes are observed during the decline? The cases where children lose the abilities they had?

Not all autisms are a decline in brain structure/function but there are studies like this, this, and this. All which demonstrate the heterogeneity of ASDs and muddy the waters even more right now.

What causes the seizures?

Not all autists experience seizures; there are numerous genetic disorders like Landau-Kleffner and Dravet's in which those who have it have high seizure activity and subsequently exhibit autism or autism-like behaviours. Once the seizures are under control, the autistic behaviours are controlled or even resolved.

Why can't anyone state the real rate? If the rate is increasing it's a serious problem, and obviously has a human cause to it.

Because autism epidemiology is messy. It is a psychiatric disorder, a constellation of symptoms and chasmic differences in global healthcare and public health schemes and you should be able to see that it isn't anything like an infectious disease with a single pathogenic aetiology.

It has a human cause only to the extent that humans have babies and autism has been around for as long as anyone can know; it didn't spontaneously arise. If you are suggesting that it's purely environmental (and to some degree it may be but not in the way you think) then why didn't autism prevalence explode during the industrial revolution? As for environmental causes, there are some studies that indicate some drugs taken during pregnancy can alter foetal neurological development and a higher risk of autism and there are some studies that indicate that maternal obesity is a risk factor for autism development. Anti-vaxxers don't like those though because it isn't vaccinesdidit and in their tortured minds, puts the blame on themselves.

Are there populations with little or no autism?

Nope. Chris recommended a good read, "Unstrange Minds". Wherever autism is looked for, it's found.

Why is it all such a huge mystery?

Because it's a neurological disorder that is highly diverse and we are in our relative infancy as far as understanding how the brain works.

Este

 

[Giordano]

I clearly stated what I think.

When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it.

Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game. In regards to autism, clearly there is a cause, and the foggy mysterious "nobody knows" conversations are the hallmarks of ignorance, not science.

GWS is a fine example of how simple minded some people are in these matters. You have this new malady that strikes a limited population, a healthy population, and then you hear from the authorities it isn't real. Then when it can't be denied, it becomes a mystery.

Exactly like autism.

I also failed to fully understand your first post, so clarifying would help several folks. More so, just please pick one topic at a time and explain your position and any evidence for it.

A hallmark of science is to say "nobody knows" when appropriate. That is largely true of GWS: scientists have proposed causes, but no one cause seems to explain it all. So nobody knows the whole story yet.

We do know a it about what causes some autism: genetics. We know what doesn't: vaccines.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And why did he suggest parents get single vaccines, when the UK had never approved of a single mumps vaccine? Which caused certain clinics to illegally import a single Urabe vaccine, or more recently claim to have single jabs but provide no mumps vaccine?

Why bother with single vaccines that would prove the MMR dangerous?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton Moore.
You should read up on the topic of this thread and that it has nothing to do with your derail of "we can't figure out what caused the GWS". This makes it look like you are unable to tell the difference between autism and GWS.

The next derail about anthrax is even more ridiculous!

Vaccine/autism CT discussion

NOT
Vaccine causes autism CT discussion
Discussing Anthrax vaccine and GWS brings in the disregard for PEOPLE when things go wrong from medical treatment or environmental emergency. The US/UK government/CDC/FDA/GMC damage control step 1 is to say nothing is wrong, go about your business.

 

[Giordano]

Why bother with single vaccines that would prove the MMR dangerous?

They did try the experiment and autism increased when MMR was banned:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ban-in-japan.html

Don't you remember: this was brought up in this very thread quite a few times already. Isn't this the test you are proposing? And the result: MMR doesn't cause autism.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I clearly stated what I think.

When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it.

Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game. In regards to autism, clearly there is a cause, and the foggy mysterious "nobody knows" conversations are the hallmarks of ignorance, not science.

GWS is a fine example of how simple minded some people are in these matters. You have this new malady that strikes a limited population, a healthy population, and then you hear from the authorities it isn't real. Then when it can't be denied, it becomes a mystery.
Exactly like autism.

I also failed to fully understand your first post, so clarifying would help several folks. More so, just please pick one topic at a time and explain your position and any evidence for it.

A hallmark of science is to say "nobody knows" when appropriate. That is largely true of GWS: scientists have proposed causes, but no one cause seems to explain it all. So nobody knows the whole story yet.
We do know a it about what causes some autism: genetics. We know what doesn't: vaccines.

There is no way in purgatory that the US government doesn't know what caused GWS. The same type cover-up has taken place with infant/toddler autism victims for over 30 years.

They say parents aren't qualified to link their child's autism with the child's MMR jab.
They said for over 30 years they couldn't figure out the cause of infant/toddler autism.



They said, at first, the GWS victims were malingerers.
They still say they can't figure out the cause of GWS.