The Australian "custody sisters"

[Charlie Wilkes]

ETA: Although I agree she didn't take them out of "malice". I think she took them because she was lonely and isolated after the separation and wanted to return home to her family, but understandably didn't want to leave her kids behind. I don't think she took them because they were in any danger from their father, because he wasn't paying child support, or for any other reason.

I bet that is exactly right. And to get the embassy to help, she may have fabricated or exaggerated claims of abuse.

But, I do think the kids genuinely want to be with her rather than the father, if they have to choose one or the other. Certainly the older girls feel that way.

The best outcome might be if she could spend summers with them in Italy.

 

[AlBell]

Legally, it was a kidnapping

Indeed, but that's not what I read "she legally kidnapped them" to mean.

To me it meant the 'kidnapping' was deemed 'legal'. ymmv.

 

[joesixpack]

The best outcome might be if she could spend summers with them in Italy.

Will she be bringing the press corps with her?

 

[AlBell]

Ok, the mum seems a bit off, but I don't think she's actually the devil.

Nor did my use of devil's advocate have that meaning in this case; just the less argued side is what I understand by it.

 

[banquetbear]

No thanks. If you think these kids were "brainwashed," you bear the burden of supporting that claim.

...I didn't ask you if they were brainwashed. I never made the "brainwashing" claim so don't have to support it. Why don't you address the questions I asked you?

My question to you was where is your evidence that they hated their father before they were taken by their mother? Did the older ones ask to be put in foster care before or after they were kidnapped and taken to Australia? Neither of those questions have anything to do with brainwashing.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

...I didn't ask you if they were brainwashed. I never made the "brainwashing" claim so don't have to support it.

Right, and nor do I have to refute it. I've got the null hypothesis - the kids mean what they say.

Why don't you address the questions I asked you? My question to you was where is your evidence that they hated their father before they were taken by their mother? Did the older ones ask to be put in foster care before or after they were kidnapped and taken to Australia? Neither of those questions have anything to do with brainwashing.

They apparently asked to be put into foster care when they got back to Italy.

Where did I ever say they hated their father, at any time?

 

[banquetbear]

Right, and nor do I have to refute it. I've got the null hypothesis - the kids mean what they say.

...I never asked you to refute it: stop throwing those strawmen around.

Just a reminder of what you said:

Bah. You're kidding yourself. These kids have not been "brainwashed." They just don't like their father. The older ones asked to be put into foster care after they arrived in Italy so they wouldn't have to live with him. I have seen the video where one of the girls is standing at the gate of the family residence, begging reporters to rescue her until finally she is dragged away. They have been over there for months now, and they still want to return to Australia.

And a reminder of what I asked you:

...was that before or after they were abducted by their mum?

Did the older ones ask to be put in foster care before or after they were kidnapped and taken to Australia?

You seem convinced the kids weren't "brainwashed": so present some evidence that they didn't like their father before they were spirited away from Italy. The judge in the case clearly stated that there was a shift in attitude of the kids over a very short period of time that he attributed to the actions of the mother and her family.

So make your case. Did they not like their father before they were taken away? Show us your evidence.

You've conceded the request for foster care happened two years after they lost contact with their father. Now did they or did they not like their father before they were abducted?

 

[This is The End]

This comment

They were told over and over again on several different occasions over several months to kick and scream, hit or bite, whatever they can do to get away from any mild force or any other measures that the AFP would be taking. That is why there were so many officers. It was widely known that they would put up a fight, even by authorities.

I am very very sorry to say that I was a part of that. I am ashamed and I have said sorry so many times to people involved. I owe a huge apology to the girls too. Laura was disappointed it didn't work. The girls were so disappointed too that they felt they let their mother down who was counting on them to act that out so they could stay. They even apologised to her because it didn't work. She had told the girls that if they did that, kick and scream, they would be not made to go back. That is why they were coached to do that.

Well that pretty shuts down the main argument of the pro-kidnapping side...

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Indeed, but that's not what I read "she legally kidnapped them" to mean.

To me it meant the 'kidnapping' was deemed 'legal'. ymmv.

Kerikiwi is right. I was saying that in a legal sense she did kidnap them. Not that the kidnapping was legal.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well that pretty shuts down the main argument of the pro-kidnapping side...

Wait did anyone actually find that surprising?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

You've conceded the request for foster care happened two years after they lost contact with their father. Now did they or did they not like their father before they were abducted?

I don't know. Are you asking me this because you are interested and you think I might know, or are you asking me to support a claim?

If your purpose is the latter, I have not made any claim about the kind of relationship this guy had with his kids before they were taken to Australia.

 

[banquetbear]

I don't know. Are you asking me this because you are interested and you think I might know, or are you asking me to support a claim?

If your purpose is the latter, I have not made any claim about the kind of relationship this guy had with his kids before they were taken to Australia.

...I'm not being cryptic here. You've made the point that not liking dad now is somehow relevant to the story. You've made the point that they would currently "rather live in a foster home" than live with their dad.

I agree with you: these points are relevant. The girls do not like their dad now. Maybe they used to. If they used to like their dad and two years later they don't like him now: this indicates something may have happened in the two years they were away from their dad to make them go from liking him to hating him.

I go back to your words:

Bah. You're kidding yourself. These kids have not been "brainwashed." They just don't like their father. The older ones asked to be put into foster care after they arrived in Italy so they wouldn't have to live with him. I have seen the video where one of the girls is standing at the gate of the family residence, begging reporters to rescue her until finally she is dragged away. They have been over there for months now, and they still want to return to Australia.

I'm not making the case for "brainwashing." I'm stating that without knowledge of what the girls feelings were for their dad were before their abduction your statements in this post are irrelevant. The evidence is strong that if they had not been abducted by their mum and taken to Australia then they would not have had the depth of feeling against their dad that they do now.

As the judge said:

The fact that the youngest child could go from stating in May last year that she wanted to go home to Italy to her home in the Tuscan countryside to now asserting that “Italy’s a scary place. I don’t feel comfortable” and writing that she would stab herself if she was sent back to Italy, when she has not been back to Italy in the meantime, causes me to conclude that she has probably been subjected to considerable influence by persons close to her.

All your observations in your rant indicate is the influence of the persons close to the girls. The youngest wanted to go home. Now she wants to stab herself. What do you think happened to make the girl change her attitude so drastically?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

All your observations in your rant indicate is the influence of the persons close to the girls. The youngest wanted to go home. Now she wants to stab herself. What do you think happened to make the girl change her attitude so drastically?

My theory is that these kids didn't want to be separated from their mother, but they were separated by force, and now they resent the hell out of it.

I realize that sounds preposterous to the many experts who have weighed in on this discussion, but I'm not an expert. I have to rely on what seems to me to be common sense.

 

[This is The End]

My theory is that these kids didn't want to be separated from their mother, but they were separated by force, and now they resent the hell out of it.

If I had to honestly wonder about this I would say that WildCat nailed it back on page one.

It probably isn't about which parent they did not want to be separated from, it was probably about which country, and therefore which friends and/or boyfriends they did not want to be separated from.

 

[joesixpack]

If I had to honestly wonder about this I would say that WildCat nailed it back on page one.

It probably isn't about which parent they did not want to be separated from, it was probably about which country, and therefore which friends and/or boyfriends they did not want to be separated from.

It has a lot more to do with which parent places more conditions on their love. They know that their father loves them and will continue to do so in spite of the drama. Their mother, on the other hand, has most likely demonstrated that her maternal love comes with some strings attached.

I have seen this sort of **** play out before with some divorces. The more devoted parent gets dumped on while the high maintenance and needy parent makes the children jump through hoops to prove themselves worthy of that love. It's a very ugly game and it's uglier up close.

 

[banquetbear]

My theory is that these kids didn't want to be separated from their mother, but they were separated by force, and now they resent the hell out of it.

I realize that sounds preposterous to the many experts who have weighed in on this discussion, but I'm not an expert. I have to rely on what seems to me to be common sense.

...the girls were separated by force from their father (albeit away from the TV cameras) by the mother. How does this fit your "theory" and why are you seeming to disregard it?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

If I had to honestly wonder about this I would say that WildCat nailed it back on page one.

It probably isn't about which parent they did not want to be separated from, it was probably about which country, and therefore which friends and/or boyfriends they did not want to be separated from.

Watch out, suggesting that teenage girls might have possibly have boyfriends lead to thinly veiled suggestions that WildCat was a closet paedophile.......


Strangely speculating that their father was an abuser from who they were 'rescued' was fine.....

 

[DreamingNaiad]

...the girls were separated by force from their father (albeit away from the TV cameras) by the mother. How does this fit your "theory" and why are you seeming to disregard it?

They were dragged kicking and screaming from Italy? I must have missed that part.

 

[ponderingturtle]

They were dragged kicking and screaming from Italy? I must have missed that part.

And convincing her kids to do that for the press proves that the mom is the best parent ever.

 

[lionking]

It has a lot more to do with which parent places more conditions on their love. They know that their father loves them and will continue to do so in spite of the drama. Their mother, on the other hand, has most likely demonstrated that her maternal love comes with some strings attached.

You simply have to be kidding. You are saying this with such certainty that you must have some evidence. Please provide such evidence that they know their father loves them more than the mother (and don't use weasel out of this by saying "I didn't say that". Your meaning is crystal clear).