LDS

[RandFan]

Not RandFan, but here is a good site for exploring the First Vision.

The more I read and study, the more I am astounded at the amount of deception.

Janadele and those of you who are members of this church. Why do you disavow the actual history of what happened?

That is your opinion, it is NOT mine.

What is your opinion?

Yeah, the record is a bit hard to ignore or address.

 

[Pup]

You're telling me god had to use a con man, and a lie, in order to get people to join his church?!?!

And those of you who are members of the church, see nothing incongruent, about that? Seriously?

Please, please, please, I am asking a serious question.

Why can't god just be honest, not lie, stop war and poverty, communicate directly, appear when called, heal all sickness out of a sense of love, and get his written words straight?

Wouldn't that bring people to the club?!?!

Strikes a nerve, huh.

There are, of course, ready-prepared LDS answers to such common questions, but I don't think you're asking because you really want to hear those answers. If you are, you can hear about people undergoing a test on earth, etc.

The same questions apply to generic Christianity also of course, and I wrote a post on another thread that applies here too. Just substitute "the LDS Church" for "Christianity" and "200 years" for "2000 years" (though of course many of the LDS answers are the same as generic Christian answers).

The obvious real answer is because there is no God and therefore any religion which is going to survive, will need to come up with excuses why their god is powerful enough to worship yet doesn't appear to have any real influence on anything.

I'd guess that the chance of your questions suddenly giving a faithful believer an epiphany and inspiring them to give up their faith, are about the same as the chance of a Mormon converting you by providing sufficiently good answers.

That puts the whole game into perspective.

So the question-and-answer session is a game like kids asking about Santa Claus, as in the post I linked, with almost zero chance that the parents will suddenly say, "Yeah, you stumped me with that one. You're right, there is no Santa Claus."

The question then is, why play it? I suppose for the benefit of lurkers who might be on the fence about their belief. Or for the fun of matching wits--I used to do that with my parents about Santa, even when I knew he wasn't real, and it's still fun to do with religious people who like to play the game. Of just because "somebody's wrong on the internet," like the cartoon says.

I read the Mormonthink article on the first vision and didn't see anything there particularly stunning. Most LDS members, like other Christians, don't study their stories in that kind of detail, because they simply don't care. I'm guessing that the few who do, would already be aware of those sources. The problem is multiplied because Mormonism is so recent, so more records survive, but even other Christians have to deal with all the Biblical contradictions in the various gospels, plus all the extra-Biblical stuff that comes from Milton but has entered popular belief, the apocrypha that aren't included...

I'm guessing that far more people give up a religion because they no longer have an emotional need for it, than because someone pointed out a logical contradiction.

 

[tsig]

Yeah I know. That really took the wind out of my sails when I heard that. All I can do is use a Golf metaphor, over the years they improved their lie (pun intended).

The newer stories were more dramatic and were more clear about god's plan for restoration. It fit the emerging narrative better. The less ambiguity the better.

The story grew as the church did.

 

[tsig]

Strikes a nerve, huh.

There are, of course, ready-prepared LDS answers to such common questions, but I don't think you're asking because you really want to hear those answers. If you are, you can hear about people undergoing a test on earth, etc.

The same questions apply to generic Christianity also of course, and I wrote a post on another thread that applies here too. Just substitute "the LDS Church" for "Christianity" and "200 years" for "2000 years" (though of course many of the LDS answers are the same as generic Christian answers).

The obvious real answer is because there is no God and therefore any religion which is going to survive, will need to come up with excuses why their god is powerful enough to worship yet doesn't appear to have any real influence on anything.

I'd guess that the chance of your questions suddenly giving a faithful believer an epiphany and inspiring them to give up their faith, are about the same as the chance of a Mormon converting you by providing sufficiently good answers.

That puts the whole game into perspective.

So the question-and-answer session is a game like kids asking about Santa Claus, as in the post I linked, with almost zero chance that the parents will suddenly say, "Yeah, you stumped me with that one. You're right, there is no Santa Claus."

The question then is, why play it? I suppose for the benefit of lurkers who might be on the fence about their belief. Or for the fun of matching wits--I used to do that with my parents about Santa, even when I knew he wasn't real, and it's still fun to do with religious people who like to play the game. Of just because "somebody's wrong on the internet," like the cartoon says.

I read the Mormonthink article on the first vision and didn't see anything there particularly stunning. Most LDS members, like other Christians, don't study their stories in that kind of detail, because they simply don't care. I'm guessing that the few who do, would already be aware of those sources. The problem is multiplied because Mormonism is so recent, so more records survive, but even other Christians have to deal with all the Biblical contradictions in the various gospels, plus all the extra-Biblical stuff that comes from Milton but has entered popular belief, the apocrypha that aren't included...

I'm guessing that far more people give up a religion because they no longer have an emotional need for it, than because someone pointed out a logical contradiction.

You can't reason a person out of a position that they didn't reach by reason to begin with.

 

[Slowvehicle]

That is your opinion, it is NOT mine.

*sigh*

With all due respect: WHAT is WHOSE opinion? Please to clarify...

 

[deaman]

That is your opinion, it is NOT mine.

Take it easy Janadele. It's OK, I understand your beliefs are your beliefs. I have no need for you to be other than who you are.

Again, please take note of where you are posting. This is a site dedicated to critical thinking.

There is nothing I can do if you will not look at the actual reality of the history of your church. You are closing your eyes, ears and mind to the very real, actual facts.

Sorry for you but, it's OK if that's what you want.

 

[fromdownunder]

That is your opinion, it is NOT mine.

*sigh*

With all due respect: WHAT is WHOSE opinion? Please to clarify...

I thought you would understand by now. Janadele does not actually have opinions about anything, as she is completely programmed by her masters and cannot say a thing that her masters do not permit. She is not allowed to have opinions.

I cite this entire thread as evidence of the above.

Norm

 

[poblob14]

Deleted 'cause I'm stupid.

 

[abaddon]

Yeah, consensus is fine. Except when you are outside consensus.

I will attempt to summarise (I said attempt, I made no promise to be good at it).

Deaman had what amounts to a traditional catholic interpretation of what a "saint" is. I'm cool with that. In fact, I would have the same interpretation. To me a saint is defined as a praticularly prominent member of whichever faith, who has gone above and beyond the call of duty. Nonetheless, some faiths define every true bleever to be by default a saint. I can see that happening. But everyone dogpiled on him. Why? No other reason than what he understood a saint to be.

Janadele, on the other hand, Burning boosom in hand, thinks all who believe in LDS are saints.

Cat Tale, well what can I say? a surprisingly refreshing person willing to state what she believes, and defend it with her own thoughts, and is not offended by those who do not. Cred where it is due.

 

[Empress]

Deaman had what amounts to a traditional catholic interpretation of what a "saint" is. I'm cool with that. In fact, I would have the same interpretation. To me a saint is defined as a praticularly prominent member of whichever faith, who has gone above and beyond the call of duty. Nonetheless, some faiths define every true bleever to be by default a saint. I can see that happening. But everyone dogpiled on him. Why? No other reason than what he understood a saint to be.

I don't think anyone was trying to dogpile them. I certainly was not, and if it appeared to deaman that s/he was being dogpiled, I apologize. I think we were simply trying to explain, as we have throughout this thread, the term as the LDS use it. Many groups have esoteric, in-group language, and that can be difficult for outsiders to understand. "Saints" it appears, is one of those terms.

At any rate, deaman, if I came across as harsh, it was unintended, and I do apologize.

 

[abaddon]

I don't think anyone was trying to dogpile them. I certainly was not, and if it appeared to deaman that s/he was being dogpiled, I apologize. I think we were simply trying to explain, as we have throughout this thread, the term as the LDS use it. Many groups have esoteric, in-group language, and that can be difficult for outsiders to understand. "Saints" it appears, is one of those terms.

At any rate, deaman, if I came across as harsh, it was unintended, and I do apologize.

Yet you replied to me, not Deaman. Hand your apologies to him.

I have no issue.

 

[deaman]

Hey gang. Take it easy. I appreciate everybody's input. I don't take anything personal. It's no big deal, we are just having a discussion.

Thanks to all. Mormon, or Saint.

(OK, sorry, I couldn't help it......just kidding. Take it easy everyone.)

 

[RandFan]

Hey gang. Take it easy. I appreciate everybody's input. I don't take anything personal. It's no big deal, we are just having a discussion.

Thanks to all. Mormon, or Saint.

(OK, sorry, I couldn't help it......just kidding. Take it easy everyone.)

I feel like singing Kumbya.

 

[SezMe]

Janadele, on the other hand, Burning boosom in hand, thinks all who believe in LDS are saints.

Good thing I don't know what a boosom is or I would have conjured up an image wholly inappropriate to this thread.

 

[pakeha]

I vote for the #1 uni-sex garment- the thong!

The fake part is it being a translation of the papyri. That doesn't prevent the Book of Abraham from being the Word of God^TM.

I don't know if Cat Tale's answer will be along those lines, but at least she takes the time to consider the evidence and reconcile it with her faith to some extent. Some others in this thread have demonstrated considerably less flexibility in this regard.

I myself can't imagine pledging my faith in something I know to be a lie.
The cognitive dissonance would be just too much work to maintain.

An inspired translation is not where you use an understanding of another language and the context of the subject writing to render an understanding as close as possible to what the author intended to convey. It's where you give the intuitions free rein on the assumption that you are being guided by divine power. On the one hand we have translations by Egyptologists in which meanings of hieroglyphs can be consistently applied across other writings for coherent understandings. While on the other Joseph Smith's inspired translation has no such consistency and contradicts best understandings of ancient culture and language. It is indistinguishable from someone letting their imagination leap from a naïve understanding of the ancient world into an interpretation of the text that conveniently supports his new religion.

Smith's fraud is at best merely manipulative and at worst, grossly manipulative.

You would think so. The Church has a history of deception. See LDS Leaders and "Lying for the Lord". I know you are not directing this to me but I'd like to respond anyway. This is a touchy subject for many Mormons. The deception is not controversial. Why does an omnipotent and omniscient deity need deception? It's a good question. Sorry I can't provide anymore info. Hopefully someone else can respond more substantively.

...I'm guessing that far more people give up a religion because they no longer have an emotional need for it, than because someone pointed out a logical contradiction.

You could be right in general, but it wasn't so in my own case.
And yes, I had a rough time with it.
At the end of the day, though, I find my emotional needs better covered by intellectual honesty rather than deception.

 

[Pup]

Originally Posted by Pup
...I'm guessing that far more people give up a religion because they no longer have an emotional need for it, than because someone pointed out a logical contradiction.

You could be right in general, but it wasn't so in my own case.
And yes, I had a rough time with it.
At the end of the day, though, I find my emotional needs better covered by intellectual honesty rather than deception.

Y'know, I really don't know, so my statement was a truly wild guess. The few people I've known well enough to guess at their motives, who permanently gave up a religion, tended to get bored and drift away rather than have a big moment, and those who did try to have a big moment, wound up going back and were happier back. But that's a very tiny sample size that's actually meaningless.

My problem is that I can understand fantasy, allegory, fiction, etc. and I can see the point of imagination and pretending. I think it's not only fun to "believe" in things and pretend they're real, it also provides insight and helps one learn in a vivid way.

So if somebody says that praying feels good, or a Biblical story is inspirational, I'm like, yeah, I know the feeling of enjoying pretend.

What I can't grasp is thinking it's really, really, real. I don't even remember thinking Santa Claus was real; it was just this game of pretend you played with your parents, like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, where nobody had to say it was only in fun; you just knew.

So I can understand when people fall away gradually, because some kinds of playing pretend don't meet my needs like they did when I was growing up. (Get your mind out of the gutter, I mean things like pretending I'm a superhero to deal with being little and powerless. ) Other things--fiction, living history--are still just as rewarding.

So that makes the big break-away and rejection of religion hard for me to understand. I'm glad it works for those who do it, and I can't imagine the struggle it must be and the freedom one must feel at the end. But I've also seen how unhappy Cat Tale was when she tried to give up belief, and I know how unhappy I would be if someone told me I shouldn't attend any more living history events and never pretend I could travel back in time, for example.

The difference is that I know I can't really travel back in time; it's just pretend. I can't grasp what it's like to think that imaginary things, like God, Biblical stories or whatever, are really real, and not in that same imaginary-but-fun-and-useful realm as Santa, Big Bird, Ray Bradbury's fiction, etc. Cat Tale's tried to explain it, and I just can't get it.

But I can get that some have a need for imagination and fantasy and pretend in order to feel complete in life, a need that maybe others don't have, and extrapolating from that, I wonder if there are some people who need to believe that religion is really real, to feel complete. I'm okay with that, as long as they're not using it politically to force others to obey their religion too. Apparently that's not much of a problem outside the US but it can be a real problem here.

 

[Robin1]

I feel like singing Kumbya.

RandFan, this is off topic and gonna sound strange but, hey, that's never stopped me before : )
A little background... I have been involved on this forum mostly dealing with the topics of life after death and psychic medium John Edward. I am a member of the Church of Latter Day Woos. Kidding, couldn't resist...but yes, I am a believer...as well as a skeptic! A couple of days ago I saw on John Edward's twitter a posting which says something to the effect of ....you should listen to the voice of your intuition and allow your team(spirit guides) to assist you in everyday life. So, that night right before I go to sleep I say out loud "Well, spirit guides if you're there I'll try to hear what you are saying to me." I wake up the next morning (yesterday) and the Kumbaya song is playing repeatedly in my head. Not exactly a hit song on the airwaves. I never listen to or think about that song. Ever. Yet, I find myself even humming it out loud yesterday. I'm thinking why in the world is this song in my head and what the heck does "kumbaya" even mean?! So I researched the word on the Internet and researched the song. Also yesterday, I was reading this thread...read some of your comments and thought to myself that you sounded like an intelligent, kind and open minded person. Today I log in to see new posts on this thread and surprise, surprise you had commented jokingly that you felt like singing kumbaya! So, here's what I think all of this could possibly mean:
1. It is a sign for me validating that there really are spirit guides who actually do kumbaya (come by here).
2. It is a sign that maybe you are supposed to read the threads I've been involved in.
3. It means absolutely nothing at all...it's just a coincidence.
Anyway, thanks for reading this long, and, as most will think, pointless post! Oh, and stay as kind as you seem to be : )
Peace.
Disclaimer: : )
If kumbaya had been mentioned or discussed previously on this thread, then the whole point of this post will be moot!

 

[deaman]

RandFan, this is off topic and gonna sound strange but, hey, that's never stopped me before : )
A little background... I have been involved on this forum mostly dealing with the topics of life after death and psychic medium John Edward. I am a member of the Church of Latter Day Woos. Kidding, couldn't resist...but yes, I am a believer...as well as a skeptic! A couple of days ago I saw on John Edward's twitter a posting which says something to the effect of ....you should listen to the voice of your intuition and allow your team(spirit guides) to assist you in everyday life. So, that night right before I go to sleep I say out loud "Well, spirit guides if you're there I'll try to hear what you are saying to me." I wake up the next morning (yesterday) and the Kumbaya song is playing repeatedly in my head. Not exactly a hit song on the airwaves. I never listen to or think about that song. Ever. Yet, I find myself even humming it out loud yesterday. I'm thinking why in the world is this song in my head and what the heck does "kumbaya" even mean?! So I researched the word on the Internet and researched the song. Also yesterday, I was reading this thread...read some of your comments and thought to myself that you sounded like an intelligent, kind and open minded person. Today I log in to see new posts on this thread and surprise, surprise you had commented jokingly that you felt like singing kumbaya! So, here's what I think all of this could possibly mean:
1. It is a sign for me validating that there really are spirit guides who actually do kumbaya (come by here).
2. It is a sign that maybe you are supposed to read the threads I've been involved in.
3. It means absolutely nothing at all...it's just a coincidence.
Anyway, thanks for reading this long, and, as most will think, pointless post! Oh, and stay as kind as you seem to be : )
Peace.
Disclaimer: : )
If kumbaya had been mentioned or discussed previously on this thread, then the whole point of this post will be moot!

Good morning Robin1. I have read your posts in other threads, and you seem to be an interesting person, and have an interesting point of view.

Would you mind if I comment on you Kumbaya experience?

 

[RandFan]

RandFan, this is off topic and gonna sound strange but, hey, that's never stopped me before : )
A little background... I have been involved on this forum mostly dealing with the topics of life after death and psychic medium John Edward. I am a member of the Church of Latter Day Woos. Kidding, couldn't resist...but yes, I am a believer...as well as a skeptic! A couple of days ago I saw on John Edward's twitter a posting which says something to the effect of ....you should listen to the voice of your intuition and allow your team(spirit guides) to assist you in everyday life. So, that night right before I go to sleep I say out loud "Well, spirit guides if you're there I'll try to hear what you are saying to me." I wake up the next morning (yesterday) and the Kumbaya song is playing repeatedly in my head. Not exactly a hit song on the airwaves. I never listen to or think about that song. Ever. Yet, I find myself even humming it out loud yesterday. I'm thinking why in the world is this song in my head and what the heck does "kumbaya" even mean?! So I researched the word on the Internet and researched the song. Also yesterday, I was reading this thread...read some of your comments and thought to myself that you sounded like an intelligent, kind and open minded person. Today I log in to see new posts on this thread and surprise, surprise you had commented jokingly that you felt like singing kumbaya! So, here's what I think all of this could possibly mean:
1. It is a sign for me validating that there really are spirit guides who actually do kumbaya (come by here).
2. It is a sign that maybe you are supposed to read the threads I've been involved in.
3. It means absolutely nothing at all...it's just a coincidence.
Anyway, thanks for reading this long, and, as most will think, pointless post! Oh, and stay as kind as you seem to be : )
Peace.
Disclaimer: : )
If kumbaya had been mentioned or discussed previously on this thread, then the whole point of this post will be moot!

Thank you so much for that. I'm not a believer but I can respect the views of believers. I should say that I can be a hot head but I try not to. I really do want good conversations with people I disagree with. But, well, see my sig file. That's about me.

I take what you have written to me in the spirit it was meant. I'm always open minded and will keep it in mind. Not likely to change anything but nothing wrong with considering something also.

Cheers and a good day to you.

 

[Robin1]

Good morning Robin1. I have read your posts in other threads, and you seem to be an interesting person, and have an interesting point of view.

Would you mind if I comment on you Kumbaya experience?

deaman, my spirit guides are strongly advising me to say no to your commenting.
In others words, go right ahead. : )