The Australian "custody sisters"

[joesixpack]

That would make sense if it was furniture she took. Children aren't property.

Don't stretch the analogy too far, I was simply pointing out that undoing an illegally achieved state of affairs is not to be construed as "punishment".

If it had been found that the kids were better off with her until the custody case was heard would you still have them removed from her because she took them illegally initially?

This was certainly not the case. The mother had ample opportunity to argue this (and I showed above that the Hague convention would have allowed such) and she failed to convince anyone. This hypothetical scenario has already been played out. If she had been able to produce compelling evidence that the children would be in some danger if returned to Italy, then certainly I would not have advocated returning them. But that would be a different case and it currently only exists in our imagination.

The reality is that the father is certainly no worse a parent than the mother, the children are in no danger while in his care, parental alienation is a form of child abuse and it is a form of abuse recognized by the courts both in Australia and in the US (and possibly in Italy, though I really don't know), and the mother, acting illegally, has attempted to deny the father a fair hearing in court in the jurisdiction of the divorce/custody hearing.

You may ask all the hypothetical questions you like, but I am talking about this case and the hypotheticals are simply academic.

 

[BenBurch]

Plus the father is under a microscope now. If you had any worries before they would have to be mitigated now.

 

[joesixpack]

Bah. You're kidding yourself. These kids have not been "brainwashed." They just don't like their father. The older ones asked to be put into foster care after they arrived in Italy so they wouldn't have to live with him. I have seen the video where one of the girls is standing at the gate of the family residence, begging reporters to rescue her until finally she is dragged away. They have been over there for months now, and they still want to return to Australia.

I had asked you earlier if you were old enough to remember Patty Hearst. It seems that you clearly aren't. You should look up "Parental Alienation" and "Stockholm Syndrome". Read up on that a bit before you scoff at reality again.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I had asked you earlier if you were old enough to remember Patty Hearst. It seems that you clearly aren't. You should look up "Parental Alienation" and "Stockholm Syndrome". Read up on that a bit before you scoff at reality again.

Daddy-o is the one who needs to read up. He's had these little puppets under his control for months now, but they still want to go back to their evil mother.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

...was that before or after they were abducted by their mum?

Did the older ones ask to be put in foster care before or after they were kidnapped and taken to Australia?

You seem convinced the kids weren't "brainwashed": so present some evidence that they didn't like their father before they were spirited away from Italy. The judge in the case clearly stated that there was a shift in attitude of the kids over a very short period of time that he attributed to the actions of the mother and her family.

So make your case. Did they not like their father before they were taken away? Show us your evidence.

No thanks. If you think these kids were "brainwashed," you bear the burden of supporting that claim.

 

[joesixpack]

Daddy-o is the one who needs to read up. He's had these little puppets under his control for months now, but they still want to go back to their evil mother.

Isn't it funny that he hasn't spent that time trying to alienate them from their mother? See how he lets them continue to correspond with her? Also see how these letters, as katy_did pointed out above, read much more like girls telling their mother what they know she wants to hear out of fear of losing her love?

My son tells his mom he misses her all the time, but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy being with me, he just knows that she likes to hear it.

Seriously, you want your argument to be taken seriously yet you haven't done 20 seconds worth of research into developmental psychology or parental alienation. You don't need to be a parent to understand this stuff, but you do need to make an honest effort to learn something. As it stands now you're just sharing your completely uninformed opinion.

 

[joesixpack]

No thanks. If you think these kids were "brainwashed," you bear the burden of supporting that claim.

So why do they not want to return to their father's 18 months after stating that they DO want to return to their father's? Surely nothing HE said or did to them would have changed their minds during that time, he had no access to them.

You are arguing an increasingly preposterous scenario.

 

[katy_did]

Wow, this case is nuts. This comment is from the former administrator of the girls' Facebook page, Melissa Thompson, apparently also a (presumably former!) family friend. She describes what happened in the lead-up to the girls being removed:

Just to reiterate...The girls were coached with the AFP [Australian Federal Police]. That's why there is a distinct difference between the time they were picked up when they were kidnapped by GGM and held at her boyfriend's house and the time they left that last time, when the AFP was involved.

They were told over and over again on several different occasions over several months to kick and scream, hit or bite, whatever they can do to get away from any mild force or any other measures that the AFP would be taking. That is why there were so many officers. It was widely known that they would put up a fight, even by authorities.

I am very very sorry to say that I was a part of that. I am ashamed and I have said sorry so many times to people involved. I owe a huge apology to the girls too. Laura was disappointed it didn't work. The girls were so disappointed too that they felt they let their mother down who was counting on them to act that out so they could stay. They even apologised to her because it didn't work. She had told the girls that if they did that, kick and scream, they would be not made to go back. That is why they were coached to do that.[...]

Some might say that they felt so strongly about not returning to Italy that they were man handled. I am not making excuses for the AFP's actions, but I do want to let everyone know that under any circumstances, the girls would have put up a fight like that. The girls were under the impression that they were going to be forced into the cars by their arms and/or picked up and carried. They knew that type of scene was about to play out. They were ready. I know that because I told them too. They were told. They knew. They were ready for them to come.

They didn't want to go back to Italy out of fear like the fake name over of KWV Melissa Hasnoclue has said. They didn't want to go back to Italy because their mother was not there. The prospect of being without her whether it be here or there is what they feared. She worked them up into a state of frenzy for that moment and that is exactly what it was, a frenzied moment.[...]

I told [eldest girl] the news for the first time. I called her at about 3.30 that afternoon. She confirmed she was ready but she was scared to kick and scream. I told her to shut her phone off and get her things ready, there was a warrant out for them to leave immediately, and be ready for them. They knew exactly what they needed to do. They all did it without hesitation. They were coached over many, many weeks. The dramatic scenes were staged and only play onto the hearts of many people who do not know what I have just written here. So it does not matter if they asked them politely to get in the car, using one officer, or four cars with ten officers, the same scene would be played out for all to see. And for that, I am deeply sorry.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Wow, this case is nuts. This comment is from the former administrator of the girls' Facebook page, Melissa Thompson, apparently also a (presumably former!) family friend. She describes what happened in the lead-up to the girls being removed:

This really is interesting. I wonder what happened to get this woman to change sides and why she participated in this coaching in the first place, if she now disapproves.

But, you know, the drama was not limited to the scene where they were taken from their mother. The older girls had to be removed from a commercial flight and put on a later flight because they were so disruptive. I don't know how they got them to behave well enough to board a second flight. But then they freaked out again when they got to Italy. And they still say they want to return to Australia. So this is all at the instigation of the evil mother? None of it is genuine?

And how did the cops know this was coming? Who tipped them off that the girls were being coached to make a fuss?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

So why do they not want to return to their father's 18 months after stating that they DO want to return to their father's? Surely nothing HE said or did to them would have changed their minds during that time, he had no access to them.

You are arguing an increasingly preposterous scenario.

Is it really preposterous to think these kids are capable of forming an opinion on their own, or that they prefer their mother over their father? That's pretty much the sum total of my "scenario."

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Don't stretch the analogy too far, I was simply pointing out that undoing an illegally achieved state of affairs is not to be construed as "punishment".



This was certainly not the case. The mother had ample opportunity to argue this (and I showed above that the Hague convention would have allowed such) and she failed to convince anyone. This hypothetical scenario has already been played out. If she had been able to produce compelling evidence that the children would be in some danger if returned to Italy, then certainly I would not have advocated returning them. But that would be a different case and it currently only exists in our imagination.

The reality is that the father is certainly no worse a parent than the mother, the children are in no danger while in his care, parental alienation is a form of child abuse and it is a form of abuse recognized by the courts both in Australia and in the US (and possibly in Italy, though I really don't know), and the mother, acting illegally, has attempted to deny the father a fair hearing in court in the jurisdiction of the divorce/custody hearing.

You may ask all the hypothetical questions you like, but I am talking about this case and the hypotheticals are simply academic.

We seem to be on the same page then.

I was just addressing the claims that all kidnapping is unjustifiable ever and that since she did it she automatically shouldn't have the kids. As long as we're in agreement that if the mother wasn't as manipulative as she is accused of being and the father was the bad guy she wouldn't have to lose them cos of one bad act then we're completely in agreement.

And I agree that parental alienation is a horrible thing but there us the possibility that they were just homesick at first and got over it. We can only speculate. It's a possibility.

I'm also not sure if she took them out of malice. She sought aid from the consulate saying he wouldn't financially support them. Not really sure what choice she had if that were the case.

 

[katy_did]

This really is interesting. I wonder what happened to get this woman to change sides and why she participated in this coaching in the first place, if she now disapproves.

But, you know, the drama was not limited to the scene where they were taken from their mother. The older girls had to be removed from a commercial flight and put on a later flight because they were so disruptive. I don't know how they got them to behave well enough to board a second flight. But then they freaked out again when they got to Italy. And they still say they want to return to Australia. So this is all at the instigation of the evil mother? None of it is genuine?

And how did the cops know this was coming? Who tipped them off that the girls were being coached to make a fuss?

Yes, it would be very interesting to know what happened to make her 'spill the beans', as it were. In the comments there's another woman who seems to also have known the family and originally supported them, but then 'switched sides'. No idea what happened there either.

As she says though, her claims are supported by the fact (pointed out in one of the court judgments) that all the girls were calm when they were discovered after being on the run, even though the prospect of going back to Italy must have loomed very high at that stage. The judge says that the youngest child even asked if she could gather some of her things together in case they were leaving for Italy that night.

I think the cops would have known the girls intended to struggle because they said in court interviews this is what they would do, claiming among other things that they'd need to be removed from Australia "drugged and handcuffed". There is a slight contradiction, though, in that the judge mentioned above didn't seem to think they would really act like that, using their previous calm behaviour when found after being on the run as evidence.

There's another perspective on the girls' behaviour in Italy here, FWIW - it seems most likely to be an account from the kids' Italian grandmother (at least I'm assuming that's the woman who appears in the footage). She claims that the girls were both calm when they arrived, until they learned that there would be TV cameras at the father's house... Obviously this is just the grandmother's perspective, however, and I don't know how credible the website is. Certainly it's supportive of the father.

Tomasso had picked his two older girls up from the airport and all was well. They were tired but settled and appeared to be looking forward to getting home from the long flight and reuniting with their two younger sisters.

It was about 10 k from home when the eldest girl’s mobile rang. Channel Nine was camped at the front gate. “How could they have known our address?” asked Tomasso. “Mum told them”, said the younger girl.

The mood in the car quickly changed as they approached the vineyards separating the driveway to the house. An orchestrated media scene was about to unfold. This was the worst possible time for the media to be at their home.

According to a relative who did not want to be named, all hell broke loose. It seemed almost rehearsed. Both girls refused to enter the house and clung to the front gate. Tomasso was able to rush the younger girl inside but the eldest girl refused to let go of the iron gate, screaming and insisting she wanted to go back to Australia.

 

[katy_did]

I'm also not sure if she took them out of malice. She sought aid from the consulate saying he wouldn't financially support them. Not really sure what choice she had if that were the case.

I don't think it is the case that he wasn't financially supporting them (and if it had been, she could have pursued it with the authorities in Italy, which she never did). Certainly the father claims he was paying her child support. The mother told the embassy a lot of things when she was trying to get help to leave the country; the only one they actually investigated was her claim to be destitute (because, she said, the father wasn't supporting her) and this turned out to be false. According to them she was living "comfortably".

ETA: Although I agree she didn't take them out of "malice". I think she took them because she was lonely and isolated after the separation and wanted to return home to her family, but understandably didn't want to leave her kids behind. I don't think she took them because they were in any danger from their father, because he wasn't paying child support, or for any other reason.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I don't think it is the case that he wasn't financially supporting them (and if it had been, she could have pursued it with the authorities in Italy, which she never did). Certainly the father claims he was paying her child support. The mother told the embassy a lot of things when she was trying to get help to leave the country; the only one they actually investigated was her claim to be destitute (because, she said, the father wasn't supporting her) and this turned out to be false. According to them she was living "comfortably".

ETA: Although I agree she didn't take them out of "malice". I think she took them because she was lonely and isolated after the separation and wanted to return home to her family, but understandably didn't want to leave her kids behind. I don't think she took them because they were in any danger from their father, because he wasn't paying child support, or for any other reason.

The people at the embassy need to be investigated. They claim she was going on a holiday that the father knew about, then gave her one-way tickets and helped her mess around with flight times to avoid him. That makes no sense.

 

[AlBell]

So by that logic, if someone says marital rape is ok they are saying it is ok to rape strangers in other countries.

Nope. Saying words doesn't overturn laws.

...

Yes, she legally kidnapped them but that is entirely different from dragging a strange child off.

Gets accused of supporting kidnap and saying they should have remained in mother's custody in 3...2...1...

I too have great trouble seeing this as a "legal" kidnapping. Please explain.

 

[kerikiwi]

I too have great trouble seeing this as a "legal" kidnapping. Please explain.

Legally, it was a kidnapping

 

[AlBell]

...

If you had kids and got divorced the milkman couldn't apply for custody.

Of course he could, depending on paternity test results.

 

[AlBell]

If the best interests of the child aren't what's taken into account during a custody case then what is?

The size of bribe to judge and which parent offered it.

 

[AlBell]

But in lionkings world it is perfectly ok to kidnap children... And as long as you can turn them against the other parent... It's all good.

I'm ready to cut lionking some slack and pretend he's playing devil's advocate.

 

[Matthew Best]

I'm ready to cut lionking some slack and pretend he's playing devil's advocate.

Ok, the mum seems a bit off, but I don't think she's actually the devil.