The Australian "custody sisters"

[Caper]

But in lionkings world it is perfectly ok to kidnap children... And as long as you can turn them against the other parent... It's all good.

 

[WildCat]

Yea best leave them being brainwashed. What should they have done? You admit to the brainwashing then want them to stay in it. This seems wrong to me.

But they cried at the airport! Worst temper tantrum I've seen since my parents took away my little sister's pacifier 40 years ago. The horror... the horror!

 

[WildCat]

But in lionkings world it is perfectly ok to kidnap children... And as long as you can turn them against the other parent... It's all good.

And leave the legal system out of it! It's a personal matter.

 

[ehcks]

What I find weird is people decrying the very event the mother orchestrated to successfully get then on her side while still siding with her.

If the media circus is so bad isn't that evidence against the mother who instigated it?

That's the really annoying part. Apparently she broke enough laws in enough ways that punishing her for such law-breaking is difficult, therefore we shouldn't try.

 

[joesixpack]

And leave the legal system out of it! It's a personal matter.

That's exactly what the mother was trying to do. It's only butthurt custody case losers who don't see this.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

That's the really annoying part. Apparently she broke enough laws in enough ways that punishing her for such law-breaking is difficult, therefore we shouldn't try.

So this was about punishing the mother? And screw the kids well-being as long as the mother suffers?

 

[ponderingturtle]

So this was about punishing the mother? And screw the kids well-being as long as the mother suffers?

So what crimes does this act as a get out of jail free card?

 

[joesixpack]

So this was about punishing the mother? And screw the kids well-being as long as the mother suffers?

Are you suggesting that a criminals relationship with his or her children should mitigate their punishment? For example, if a man robs a bank and kills the teller, he should not face a long sentence because his kid will miss him?

I understand that your only objection to the repatriation is the manner in which it was done, and I certainly agree with you on that point, but do you honestly feel the mother should not face some sort of consequence for her utter contempt for the law, the well being of her children, and the rights of her children's father?

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Are you suggesting that a criminals relationship with his or her children should mitigate their punishment? For example, if a man robs a bank and kills the teller, he should not face a long sentence because his kid will miss him?

I understand that your only objection to the repatriation is the manner in which it was done, and I certainly agree with you on that point, but do you honestly feel the mother should not face some sort of consequence for her utter contempt for the law, the well being of her children, and the rights of her children's father?

Both countries and the father don't seem to want her punished.

Some people here seem to be insinuating the kids should have been removed to punish the mother. I care more about the kids welfare. For example, if it did turn out that he was extremely abusive (hypothetically, no evidence so far to say this) I wouldn't want the kids to be with him just to punish the mother for kidnapping.

 

[kerikiwi]

But I'm disturbed by the outpouring of hatred for this woman that I'm seeing here on JREF, going so far as to compare her to sexual predators who abduct children.

Nobody has done that

 

[joesixpack]

Both countries and the father don't seem to want her punished.

Some people here seem to be insinuating the kids should have been removed to punish the mother. I care more about the kids welfare. For example, if it did turn out that he was extremely abusive (hypothetically, no evidence so far to say this) I wouldn't want the kids to be with him just to punish the mother for kidnapping.

I don't believe anyone here suggested that decisions regarding custodial arrangements should be for made with punitive intent. The children are being returned to their father's custody because they were taken illegally and it is in the children's best interest. Punishment for criminal wrongdoing is still at the discretion of the Italian prosecutor (whatever his/her title is in Italy). It is completely separate of the custodial findings, as it ought to be.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I don't believe anyone here suggested that decisions regarding custodial arrangements should be for made with punitive intent. The children are being returned to their father's custody because they were taken illegally and it is in the children's best interest. Punishment for criminal wrongdoing is still at the discretion of the Italian prosecutor (whatever his/her title is in Italy). It is completely separate of the custodial findings, as it ought to be.

And yet people seem to think that one of the reasons the kids should have been sent back is that them staying would reward the mum for kidnapping. Therefore the kids had to be removed to punish her.

Otherwise strangers will kidnap children and that would be ok cos strangers and parents should somehow logically have the same rights to kids. Or something.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

The judge in the custody dispute will probably use this in his deliberations even without charges. Eg I doubt they will let the kids go to Australia to visit her in case she hides them again.

 

[ehcks]

And yet people seem to think that one of the reasons the kids should have been sent back is that them staying would reward the mum for kidnapping. Therefore the kids had to be removed to punish her.

Otherwise strangers will kidnap children and that would be ok cos strangers and parents should somehow logically have the same rights to kids. Or something.

They're not being "removed," they're being "returned." They're being put back into the custody court case that determines which custody variant is the most beneficial to the children.

And as the mother is an unjustified kidnapper who worked to brainwash the kids against the father, she is likely to not get much visitation.

 

[joesixpack]

And yet people seem to think that one of the reasons the kids should have been sent back is that them staying would reward the mum for kidnapping. Therefore the kids had to be removed to punish her.

Otherwise strangers will kidnap children and that would be ok cos strangers and parents should somehow logically have the same rights to kids. Or something.

If you steal something, having to return it is not "punishment". But allowing someone to keep what they have acquired illegally is rewarding criminal behavior.

 

[kerikiwi]

Otherwise strangers will kidnap children and that would be ok cos strangers and parents should somehow logically have the same rights to kids. Or something.

The argument has been made that it is solely the interests of the child which should be considered.
That was the whole point of the stranger abduction analogy: rights of parents don't come into it. If the child is abducted and at a later date screams to stay with the abductor, whether or not the abductor is a stranger or a parent is irrelevant.
If whether the abductor is a stranger or a parent is relevant, then the argument that the interests of the child (as manifested in this case by their screaming to stay with the abductor) are paramount falls over.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

They're not being "removed," they're being "returned." They're being put back into the custody court case that determines which custody variant is the most beneficial to the children.

And as the mother is an unjustified kidnapper who worked to brainwash the kids against the father, she is likely to not get much visitation.

Bah. You're kidding yourself. These kids have not been "brainwashed." They just don't like their father. The older ones asked to be put into foster care after they arrived in Italy so they wouldn't have to live with him. I have seen the video where one of the girls is standing at the gate of the family residence, begging reporters to rescue her until finally she is dragged away. They have been over there for months now, and they still want to return to Australia.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

The argument has been made that it is solely the interests of the child which should be considered.
That was the whole point of the stranger abduction analogy: rights of parents don't come into it. If the child is abducted and at a later date screams to stay with the abductor, whether or not the abductor is a stranger or a parent is irrelevant.
If whether the abductor is a stranger or a parent is relevant, then the argument that the interests of the child (as manifested in this case by their screaming to stay with the abductor) are paramount falls over.

I'm pretty sure what was actually said was that in a custody dispute the best interests of the kids was the primary concern. It degenerated from there somehow.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

If you steal something, having to return it is not "punishment". But allowing someone to keep what they have acquired illegally is rewarding criminal behavior.

That would make sense if it was furniture she took. Children aren't property.

If it had been found that the kids were better off with her until the custody case was heard would you still have them removed from her because she took them illegally initially?

 

[banquetbear]

Bah. You're kidding yourself. These kids have not been "brainwashed." They just don't like their father. The older ones asked to be put into foster care after they arrived in Italy so they wouldn't have to live with him. I have seen the video where one of the girls is standing at the gate of the family residence, begging reporters to rescue her until finally she is dragged away. They have been over there for months now, and they still want to return to Australia.

...was that before or after they were abducted by their mum?

Did the older ones ask to be put in foster care before or after they were kidnapped and taken to Australia?

You seem convinced the kids weren't "brainwashed": so present some evidence that they didn't like their father before they were spirited away from Italy. The judge in the case clearly stated that there was a shift in attitude of the kids over a very short period of time that he attributed to the actions of the mother and her family.

So make your case. Did they not like their father before they were taken away? Show us your evidence.