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The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.

Dear Janadale,

I'm giving you the opportunity to re-read what you wrote in an earlier post...

What? Did you mean to write it that way?

Can you give this a more defined example?
 
There is no distinction, which is what makes this doctrine of "magical cause and effect" unspeakably evil in application.

If we were to say that God is capricious and cruel, so as to sometimes cause cancer in a child for no reason (or because He "wants the child with Him in heaven")... well, that's just our tough luck to live under the jurisdiction of such a being. But in the end it's not much different from saying we live in a godless universe of cause and effect that sometimes has capricious and cruel results beyond our power to prevent. It's just our tough luck that way too.

Or we can say that we live in a God-created universe that's randomly contaminated with floating bits of original sin or whatever. God has no desire for these bad things to happen and does not make them happen, but for whatever reason has decided not to intervene to prevent them, so when one of them comes along and instills a tumor in an innocent child -- again, tough luck for us, but we can only shrug, do our best to avoid or fix the bad things, and make the best of what life brings us.

But when we say that the innocent child's cancer is the deliberate magical cause and effect result of someone else's misdeed -- not an actual cause and effect, such as if someone had poisoned the child with a carcinogen, but divinely ordered magical cause and effect to punish the wickedness of some person who may or may not even be associated with the child, by the child dying of cancer -- then we've entered a moral wasteland.

In the moral wasteland, every misfortune is someone else's fault, even if the one at fault has no way to know it and might not have had any ill intentions.

In the moral wasteland, any action no matter how overtly harmless -- blasphemy, unsanctioned sex, naughty thoughts -- can be said to cause horrible consequences to someone else. That justifies any measure to prevent those sins, as self-defense. No matter how harsh the measure or how arbitrary the designation of the sin.

In the moral wasteland, allowing gay marriage in California might cause drought or sickness in Utah, and so must be prevented at all costs.

In the moral wasteland, God is not so much cruel, as hapless. He doesn't want to give the child cancer, but somebody masturbated and now some warped system of magical justice ("Divine Law") says He has to.

In the moral wasteland, religious freedom cannot be permitted if it can be prevented. Every heretic, every apostate, every atheist is a bull in God's china shop who can bring down God's wrath on the good people for failing to punish them. (God will, however, cut the good people some slack if they temporarily lack the power to carry out a full-scale crusade, as long as they do their best as their abilities permit.)

If there were a Satan, there's little worse he could do than lead as many people as possible into that moral wasteland.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Agreed (not surprisingly). Most of us would agree that saying God kills a kitten each time you masturbate is obviously and transparently silly, but say he sends a tidal wave that wipes out millions of people, or gives little children cancer for some imagined infraction, and the faithful drones of this world gobble it up. The realization that a small stupid idea can obtain great power if it is enormously and amazingly stupid is a deviltry with a very long history.
 
The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.

" In all his evil doings, the adversary can go no further than the transgressor permits him to go, and we can gain complete power to resist the evils caused by Satan through adherence to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/power-over-satan?lang=eng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

I say that to the statement, not the person.
 
Dear Janadele,

I'm giving you the opportunity to re-read what you wrote in an earlier post...

What? Did you mean to write it that way?

Can you give this a more defined example?


Of course I meant to write it that way... I mean everything I write. It is not my concern should the reader have no understanding beyond their mundane mortal life.

It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world, and it is reassuring to know how to recognise if the Messenger is from Lucifer. The content of the message is the first indication. Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also
"Get thou behind me Satan."

It would usually be a personal experience not broadcast to the world. However there are recorded testimonies available to all to read, such as the many Heavenly visitations to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110.8?lang=eng#7
 
Of course I meant to write it that way... I mean everything I write. It is not my concern should the reader have no understanding beyond their mundane mortal life.

It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world, and it is reassuring to know how to recognise if the Messenger is from Lucifer. The content of the message is the first indication. Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also
"Get thou behind me Satan."

It would usually be a personal experience not broadcast to the world. However there are recorded testimonies available to all to read, such as the many Heavenly visitations to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110.8?lang=eng#7


So, when you got your special message with that whole fire in the bossom thing, who's hand did you shake?
 
It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world,

So what about something not brought by a messenger with hands, like a burning in the bosom? How can one tell that it's not a trick of Satan?
 
It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world, and it is reassuring to know how to recognise if the Messenger is from Lucifer. The content of the message is the first indication. Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also
"Get thou behind me Satan."

Seems to me if it had no body a strong wind would take care of it, with or without words of any kind?

But, just for sake of argument, if you were visited by a spirit of Lucifer, are you sure you would you tell it to go away? Maybe you want to hear it's side of the story?

Afterall, if it's not "mortal" it can't hurt you, and it may have some awesome stories to tell. If it can hurt you then it can shake hands just as well as a person, and if it does hurt you then you become a spirit just like it....
 
Of course I meant to write it that way... I mean everything I write. It is not my concern should the reader have no understanding beyond their mundane mortal life.

It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world, and it is reassuring to know how to recognise if the Messenger is from Lucifer. The content of the message is the first indication. Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also
"Get thou behind me Satan."

It would usually be a personal experience not broadcast to the world. However there are recorded testimonies available to all to read, such as the many Heavenly visitations to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110.8?lang=eng#7

Really? What does he say in that instance? "I am from Lucifer, Boogety-Boogety-Boo!"

I really want to ask my mother if she believes this crap, but I'm afraid she'll say yes. :(
 
Of course I meant to write it that way... I mean everything I write. It is not my concern should the reader have no understanding beyond their mundane mortal life.

It is obvious if the Messenger is not of our mortal world, and it is reassuring to know how to recognise if the Messenger is from Lucifer. The content of the message is the first indication. Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also
"Get thou behind me Satan."

It would usually be a personal experience not broadcast to the world. However there are recorded testimonies available to all to read, such as the many Heavenly visitations to the Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110.8?lang=eng#7

Thanks for the response, but I'll ignore the "mundane" in the "mundane mortal life". This holier than thou attitude is typical, I'm used to it.

Perhaps I took your comment to literally? What did you mean by "shaking their hand"?
 
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Then if there is doubt, and there is no physical body, the Messenger can be dismissed with these words:
"In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to leave." also"Get thou behind me Satan."

Ooo! Ooo! Try it on Me, Janadele! I don't think you have the power to get Me to leave this thread, but let's find out, shall we?

Better yet, hop a plane to Winnipeg and I will meet you at a mutually agreed-upon public location and shake your hand. You will see that My hand is exceedingly corporeal, and that your hand cannot pass through Mine no matter how hard you try.
 
So what about something not brought by a messenger with hands, like a burning in the bosom? How can one tell that it's not a trick of Satan?
Pup, Lucifer is not empowered to impart that which I experienced... an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied. That power is denied him.
 
Pup, Lucifer is not empowered to impart that which I experienced... an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied. That power is denied him.

I had that experience a few times, Turned out to be heartburn.
 
...what about a messenger selling a message based on historical inaccuracies, demonstrable mistakes, and outright lies?

I don't remember reading much about his hands. It's pretty clear that he had another part of his body that was physical and touched other people with it frequently, particularly young girls and the wives of other men.
 
Pup, Lucifer is not empowered to impart that which I experienced... an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied. That power is denied him.

And who decides which powers are allowed him, and why allow him any powers at all in the first place?
 
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