Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Well, it's not like his story is very good in the first place, to be honest.

"Yeah, I saw this guy walking down the street, and I followed him in my car, and then when he got frightened and ran off I got out and followed him on foot, and when we met up, I immediately stuck my hands in my pockets, and then he punched me!"

Well, yes, Zimmerman's self-described behavior is remarkably threatening. It's not something I'd ever do, so I don't see how it could possibly help his self-defense claim with a logical jury - although it may help with an illogical jury.

And that's not to bash you - I think we're in agreement on this. But I think it's best to note Zimmerman's own statements, since they give a strong reason to find him at fault.

I don't know if I totally agree with this. There are many people who find the basic plot of George's story plausible. I know that you and I don't, but there's lots of people who tend to think young black males are on a hair trigger at all times just waiting to commit violence. And of course with super human "natural" athleticism which lets a 155 lb teenager run roughshod over a 205 lb man carrying a gun. While I find his entire tale laughable on its face, I think there are others who need to see that George is a liar in order to wrap their heads around the truth of the matter.

What I was specifally getting at is how well Shellie's perjury case demonstrates this bias. My prediction is that the state's case will consist of BLDR systematically demonstrating all the ways in which George lied about what happened that night, and how his self-serving lies add up to an attempt to excuse an act of murder. As these lies are exposed, a rational person would understand that the defense's case is crumbling, brick by brick, into something that is no longer plausible. But to get a sense of how well that will work on George's supporters, you only need to look at how they refuse to even admit that Shellie lied, when we have recordings, bank documents, and her own words to prove it. How will they react when George's lies are exposed by such things as timelines, physical locations, and common sense?

 

[Unabogie]

I know Johnny Karate has has issues with how the law works in this regard, and it appears you do too ... but the state is required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ didn't act in self defense. Because that is the legal standard they need to meet.

Of course. But you're demonstrating that your standard is "beyond all doubt" because you said that even if his story crumbles at trial you wouldn't support conviction. That's incredible.

I don't know why you think that if certain aspects of GZ story seem inconsistent to you, like the location of the body, that somehow will fulfill the requirements to prove beyond a reasonable doubt GZ was not acting in self defense.

Because you keep softening my words to make them easier to argue with. His story is a big lie. He claimed that Trayvon attacked him as he was walking back to his truck, after innocently looking for an address. He explicitly denied following him. If the evidence contradicts this, then the scenario is flipped:

George WAS following him. He WASN'T looking for an address, he was looking for Trayvon and found him. Trayvon DIDN'T attack him where he said he did. He DIDN'T go down to the ground under a hail of blows. This demolishes his defense. It's plain as day.

I also don't understand why you keep dodging the question about whether you think MOM is lying or not.

I want to know if you think he is lying about the data for every day except the 26th being there - yes or no ?

I don't know. He's all over the place, isn't he? On one hand, there's missing data. On the other, the state hasn't violated any rules of discovery. Which do I go with?

And it is also kind of funny - way back in this thread, here, you told crimresearch to stop snipping your posts, but you find it OK to do it to mine:

Apparently that's not the standard, as I was informed in that thread, so we'll all just have to learn to live with the injustice there.

 

[johnny karate]

Sure, only the claim doesn't just "go away" unless the state proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense.

And our disagreement seems to be over what constitutes reasonable doubt.

You have repeatedly declined to let us know what evidence you think they will use to do that.

And you have repeatedly been told that a criminal prosecution does not begin and end with what self-appointed legal experts on the internet think of the evidence.

I didn't ask anyone to prove he's lying. I asked unabogie if he believed MOM was lying or not.

Unless this is all about scoring some kind of debate points or some other game I am unaware of, I thought it would be easy for him to say whether he thinks MOM is lying or not.

I'll keep this post in mind as this particular conversation progresses.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Of course. But you're demonstrating that your standard is "beyond all doubt" because you said that even if his story crumbles at trial you wouldn't support conviction. That's incredible.

Because you keep softening my words to make them easier to argue with. His story is a big lie. He claimed that Trayvon attacked him as he was walking back to his truck, after innocently looking for an address.

Let's stick to the one bolded point for a moment. GZ claims TM punched him in the face, at the Tee, as he reached into his pocket for his phone.

You claim that is a lie.

Please help me understand how the state is going to prove that is a lie.

O'MARA: So do you know who started the fight?
GILBREATH: Do I know?
O'MARA: Right.
GILBREATH: No.
O'MARA: Do you have any evidence that supports who may have started the fight?
GILBREATH: No.

 

[AlBell]

...

Unless this is all about scoring some kind of debate points or some other game I am unaware of

...

IMO it's been that for over 4000 posts now.

 

[Unabogie]

Let's stick to the one bolded point for a moment. GZ claims TM punched him in the face, at the Tee, as he reached into his pocket for his phone.

You claim that is a lie.

Please help me understand how the state is going to prove that is a lie.

O'MARA: So do you know who started the fight?
GILBREATH: Do I know?
O'MARA: Right.
GILBREATH: No.
O'MARA: Do you have any evidence that supports who may have started the fight?
GILBREATH: No.

You love that little exchange, but it's been pointed out to you many times that at PC hearings, the state is loathe to say much since the standard is so low and they have nothing to gain by divulging info and lots to lose. So they play coy. Beyond that, I don't think Gilbreath was prepared to testify so he may just be a crappy witness. It's also been pointed out to you many times that George claimed he was hit once and went immediately down to the ground. He claimed that after this, Trayvon jumped on him and with no warning pummeled him and slammed his head on the concrete. If the location of the fight wasn't anywhere near the "T", then he's lying about those facts. That's why it's a problem for him. Unless you want to just excuse everything George says that isn't backed up by facts, which is why I keep bringing up Shellie.

ETA: I also want to note that George changed his story on this. In his original telling, he was hit once, fell backwards (away from the body) and then right down to the ground. In his walk through, he changed this to say he sort of stumbled. It's obvious that he realized after he was there in the daytime that his story wouldn't work, so he did his stumble walk. All BLDR has to do is play those two back to back and then ask George how both can be true. That will demonstrate that George makes things up. I don't see how that will fail to convince a jury. I've been on a jury. The big question people asked was "why did he lie?".

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You love that little exchange, but it's been pointed out to you many times that at PC hearings, the state is loathe to say much since the standard is so low and they have nothing to gain by divulging info and lots to lose. So they play coy.

I don't understand. You mean when asked a direct question about evidence, the state normally lies in response?

I now have to prove that Gilbreaths statement is the truth ?

Beyond that, I don't think Gilbreath was prepared to testify so he may just be a crappy witness. It's also been pointed out to you many times that George claimed he was hit once and went immediately down to the ground. He claimed that after this, Trayvon jumped on him and with no warning pummeled him and slammed his head on the concrete. If the location of the fight wasn't anywhere near the "T", then he's lying about those facts. That's why it's a problem for him. Unless you want to just excuse everything George says that isn't backed up by facts, which is why I keep bringing up Shellie.

Which part of what you wrote above proves that GZ was lying about TM punching him ?

Why were GZs keys at the Tee ? Right where they would be if he was walking back to his truck with his keys in his hand and got sucker punched.

 

[Unabogie]

I don't understand. You mean when asked a direct question about evidence, the state normally lies in response?

I now have to prove that Gilbreaths statement is the truth ?

No, don't be obtuse. You have to realize that what Gilbreath said was meaningless for the reasons I described. The PC hearing is where cops play coy so they don't say anything that can be used later. But you're ignoring the fact that it doesn't mean anything in regards to the trial. They will demonstrate that George made up his narrative even if they can't show who punched who first. I don't think that matters anyway.

Which part of what you wrote above proves that GZ was lying about TM punching him ?

Why were GZs keys at the Tee ? Right where they would be if he was walking back to his truck with his keys in his hand and got sucker punched.

There you go. You're ignoring the crux of the matter. If Trayvon punched George first, but did it in front of his house, then would it matter who punched who first? No, that would completely change the dynamics, right? If George chased Trayvon down the path or even ran along the street to cut Trayvon off, then it doesn't matter if Trayvon punched him. We would now know that George is a liar who covered his tracks. The fact that you will never accept this doesn't make a difference as to whether or not he'll be convicted. Killers who lie don't usually succeed at trial. Specifically about the keys, we know that Trayvon's things are littered SOUTH of the body. We also know that George got up and walked after murdering Trayvon. Therefore, George could have placed his keys there, while Trayvon, being dead, could not have moved his own things. I don't think the keys will help George much.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, don't be obtuse. You have to realize that what Gilbreath said was meaningless for the reasons I described. The PC hearing is where cops play coy so they don't say anything that can be used later.

I don't understand what you mean by playing coy. Did they lie, or not ? Is that like saying SZ played coy in her answers ?

But you're ignoring the fact that it doesn't mean anything in regards to the trial. They will demonstrate that George made up his narrative even if they can't show who punched who first. I don't think that matters anyway.

It most certainly matters who assaulted who. That you say it doesn't matter who punched first demonstrates your ignorance of the statutes and their real-life applicability in this case.

There you go. You're ignoring the crux of the matter. If Trayvon punched George first, but did it in front of his house, then would it matter who punched who first? No, that would completely change the dynamics, right? If George chased Trayvon down the path or even ran along the street to cut Trayvon off, then it doesn't matter if Trayvon punched him.

Yes, yes it does matter who punched who, and where. Again, where is the evidence that disproves GZ claim that TM punched him in the face at the Tee ? The requirement for the State is that is accepted as true, and they have to prove it did not happen that way.

We would now know that George is a liar who covered his tracks. The fact that you will never accept this doesn't make a difference as to whether or not he'll be convicted. Killers who lie don't usually succeed at trial. Specifically about the keys, we know that Trayvon's things are littered SOUTH of the body. We also know that George got up and walked after murdering Trayvon. Therefore, George could have placed his keys there, while Trayvon, being dead, could not have moved his own things. I don't think the keys will help George much.

Dan O. already tried to go down that route. Yes, GZ stood up and walked towards the Tee. But the police were already walking down the sidewalk, and there is no evidence that GZ got anywhere near the Tee.

You just keep claiming "GZ lied, he'll be convicted". You refuse to address the burden of proof the state has. You cannot demonstrate any evidence about who punched who first, although you consistently claim GZ is lying about it.
And you accuse me of cognitive dissonance. That's a hoot.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

IMO it's been that for over 4000 posts now.

Touche

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Hearing today at 1:30

Mark O'mara and Don West will be in court today @ 1:30 to discuss a few important matters (George won't be there):

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/notice_of_hearing022213.pdf

• Whether Crump will be compelled to give a deposition
  
• Whether the state will have to turn over addresses
  
• Whether the Martins will need to turn over voice samples of TM

May be live via usual sources ( WESH, Fox35, etc)
live here:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/WA...ump/-/1637132/19032400/-/imaupaz/-/index.html

 

[johnny karate]

You just keep claiming "GZ lied, he'll be convicted". You refuse to address the burden of proof the state has. You cannot demonstrate any evidence about who punched who first, although you consistently claim GZ is lying about it.
And you accuse me of cognitive dissonance. That's a hoot.

I'm not sure why you think Zimmerman's self-defense claim hinges on determining who punched who first.

A very good case could be made that Martin punched Zimmerman in self-defense. Aspects of Zimmerman's behavior in his own version of events could be construed as threatening.

The point is, just because Zimmerman was punched first does not mean he then had the right to shoot Martin dead. I'm pretty sure if the altercation were as simple as that, Zimmerman would be going away for a very long time. So, ultimately, that first punch doesn't really matter.

What does matter is the story Zimmerman goes on to tell about how Martin tried to kill him. That is what prompted his alleged self-defense. And that is what is going to have to stand up to scrutiny in court.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Recordings of a highly personal nature demanded by the person who, as far as they are concerned, murdered their son in cold blood and then made up racist dialogue to cover his tracks.

I believe it will not be granted because to me it's abusive, intrusive, and if you already consider the science to be woo, irrelevant.

Motion Granted. Not a shocker.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Mark O'mara and Don West will be in court today @ 1:30 to discuss a few important matters (George won't be there):

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/notice_of_hearing022213.pdf

• Whether Crump will be compelled to give a deposition
  
• Whether the state will have to turn over addresses
  
• Whether the Martins will need to turn over voice samples of TM

May be live via usual sources ( WESH, Fox35, etc)
live here:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/WA...ump/-/1637132/19032400/-/imaupaz/-/index.html

Crump will not be deposed.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Mark O'mara and Don West will be in court today @ 1:30 to discuss a few important matters (George won't be there):

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0213/notice_of_hearing022213.pdf

• Whether Crump will be compelled to give a deposition
  
• Whether the state will have to turn over addresses
  
• Whether the Martins will need to turn over voice samples of TM

May be live via usual sources ( WESH, Fox35, etc)
live here:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/WA...ump/-/1637132/19032400/-/imaupaz/-/index.html

The state will not have to turn over the addresses, the Defense can ask at deposition. They asked "DeeDee" during her 'mini deposition', but she declined to answer.

 

[Dan O.]

.Again, the phone does track it's location through cell tower locations, as an internal function of the OS. Again, you are making claims about how Android works without backing it up with evidence, and those claims are wrong.
http://forensics.spreitzenbarth.de/2011/10/28/decoding-cache-cell-and-cache-wifi-files/
As everybody knows, Android is maintaining two cache files with location information. One is cache.wifi (a wifi router database with MAC and GPS of the router) the other is cache.cell (a database with mobile communication cells and their GPS).

Well, I guess not everybody.

You don't actually understand what that says do you. If that's the data MOM is complaining about not being complete, he's in for a technical ass whipping.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You don't actually understand what that says do you. If that's the data MOM is complaining about not being complete, he's in for a technical ass whipping.

OH, I understand exactly what it says.

You claimed:

it appears that tracking is not an internal function of the android OS. This brings up the possibility that the APP was not running every day.

And then I explained to you that it did:

Again, the phone does track it's location through cell tower locations, as an internal function of the OS. Again, you are making claims about how Android works without backing it up with evidence, and those claims are wrong.

http://forensics.spreitzenbarth.de/2011/10/28/decoding-cache-cell-and-cache-wifi-files/
As everybody knows, Android is maintaining two cache files with location information. One is cache.wifi (a wifi router database with MAC and GPS of the router) the other is cache.cell (a database with mobile communication cells and their GPS).

Well, I guess not everybody.

I am guessing you read the above excerpt, without any understanding, and think the phone is keeping a database of cell tower coordinates.

That database is a database of your phones location based on cell tower triangulation.

Here's the code to dump it, and see for yourself.
https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I'm not sure why you think Zimmerman's self-defense claim hinges on determining who punched who first.

And I'm not sure where you think made that claim ?

Whether he can claim immunity depends on him not being the aggressor, that is how it's relevant to his self-defense claim.

A very good case could be made that Martin punched Zimmerman in self-defense. Aspects of Zimmerman's behavior in his own version of events could be construed as threatening.

The point is, just because Zimmerman was punched first does not mean he then had the right to shoot Martin dead. I'm pretty sure if the altercation were as simple as that, Zimmerman would be going away for a very long time. So, ultimately, that first punch doesn't really matter.

Well, had somebody in this discussion actually claimed just because Zimmerman was punched first does not mean he then had the right to shoot Martin dead, then you would be spot on. But I don't recall anyone claiming that.

What does matter is the story Zimmerman goes on to tell about how Martin tried to kill him. That is what prompted his alleged self-defense. And that is what is going to have to stand up to scrutiny in court.

And the state will have to prove that GZ was not acting in self defense. Casting doubt on part of his story is not the same thing as proving he didn't act in self defense.

 

[Dan O.]

OH, I understand exactly what it says.

You claimed:


And then I explained to you that it did:


I am guessing you read the above excerpt, without any understanding, and think the phone is keeping a database of cell tower coordinates.

That database is a database of your phones location based on cell tower triangulation.

Here's the code to dump it, and see for yourself.
https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump

I don't know if TheL8Elvis really doesn't understand this or if he is just being sarcastic. I see that Android is keeping the same kind of location cache that everybody got so upset about when they discovered it in the iPhone. The reaction is funny because the existence of the cache actually reduces the external tracking of the phone. To appease the complainers, apple caused the caches to expire more rapidly which actually has the opposite effect to what the complainers wanted.

If this is the GPS data that MOM is complaining about being missing for the 26th, I can tell you exactly why there is no data for the 26th and it doesn't have anything to do with the phone failing to save buffers or anybody deleting anything.

 

[This is The End]

I just saw this old article from the hearing Tuesday today, sorry if it was already posted, I missed it.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/motion-denied-george-zimmermans-wifes-perjury-case/nWSfq/

Attorneys for George Zimmerman's wife asked a Seminole County judge for her perjury case to be tossed out, but that motion was denied Tuesday.

Judge Marlene Alva disagreed, saying the accusations that Zimmerman lied when she answered questions about how much money the family had during a bond hearing for her husband is directly related to the Martin case.

The perjury charge is based on recorded phone calls between the Zimmermans detailing the movement of $130,000 in donations just days after Shellie Zimmerman testified the couple had no money.